Wow, that IS beautiful. How many others did he give you?

Very fragrant, it has been there since he moved there in the seventies. When I dig them up I'll have a closer look at this one,
I am wondering if it is a Hybrid Perpetual because of the way the bloom kind of 'sits' closely to the leaves.

ogrose, not sure how many he has there, I'm going to get them now.

That "high-shouldered" look is often indicative of the Portland Damask family.

Awfully pretty rose. Growing there when he moved in, in the 70's? That's very interesting, Altorama, because in that period, very few nurseries sold roses of that sort.

That means, these could be roses passed forward from an even older garden. I hope you will find out more about the history of these plants.

Jeri

Gallica Charles de Mills? It starts with about the color shown and ages to a gorgeous mauve. Fragrant, 3-1/2". Shatters quickly and cleanly.

Plant is nearly thornless. Leaves slightly furry.

Many other possibilities I guess, but if you photograph details such as thorns, leaf, stipule, bud, stamens, hips if any, someone will nail it.

And altorama, good to hear from you.

Looks a little bit like my Deuil Dr. Reynaud, which is a Bourbon from 1862...just a potential guess or clue.

That is exciting. How good of him to offer the roses to you. Even though he didn't want them he recognized that they were important. I hope they thrive.

Altorama

OMG! That is exciting!! I'm getting vicarious goose bumps.

Could you send some stem & foliage shots, too? The sitting bloom does sound like Portland damask, but yours is new to me.

I think I saw Jeri salivating at the thought of potentially undiscovered antique roses.

Carol

Yoland d'Aragon? Marcia PA5 just posted a pic of a rose flower that looks a lot like yours on "once bloomers do their thing" thread.

Carol

I can smell it from here, Alida. I am so excited for you! Did you figure out the grey-foliaged rose you posted the other day on the Gallery?

It looks like a Hybrid Perpetual to me, but I'm not an expert (far from it). And I think there must have been at least a few old rose nurseries in the '70s, because it was in that decade that I first saw an old rose - my art director grew them and brought a couple of blooms in so that I could see what they were like. It was love at first sight (the roses, not the art director). He also brought in the catalog of the place that carried them - it was called Tillotson's, and I think it was in Watsonville, CA. The two roses were 'Reine Victoria' and 'Konigen von Denmark' - unforgettable.

Lucky happy you, and the roses are lucky too! Congratulations! I like the look of the rose.

It looks very much like my Yoland d'Aragon, one of my favorite roses.

Apparently you moved to the right place!

Laura, that was Roses of Yesterday And Today, the nursery originally founded by Francis Lester.

"This rose business was established by Francis E. Lester in the 1930's, continued by Will Tillotson from 1948 to 1957, and carried on by Pat's mother, Dorothy Stemler until her passing in 1976. Patricia Stemler Wiley and her husband, Newton Wiley ran Roses of Yesterday for the next twenty years until they retired.

Since 1998, Pat and Newt Wiley's sons, Andy and Jack, and Jack's wife, Guinivere, continue to keep the garden open to the public and offer potted roses every day from 9 until 4."

As late as the late 1980's, ROY&T was one of the few places you could buy Old Roses. (When we started, the other alternative was "Wayward" -- er, that's Wayside Gardens.

Jeri

Jeri---Roses of Yesterday and Today was one of my favorite catalogs--in fact I think if I search through my many piles I might still have one---it was a great catalog to read----

Altorama----what a lucky ,happy experience for you to move near someone so generous-----I love the rose -it is soo beautiful--keep us posted--looking forward to the roses
Nice to see you posting--
Florence

Here is the info: Pics below.
Bush form is suckering and arching, about 3-4 feet tall. However these roses are mowed down every year.
New growth color is light green.
Mature cane surface is green and smooth-however it is hard to tell because I do not know how far they were mowed down.
Leaf is matte and medium green.
5 to 7 leaflets. Terminal leaflet a bit over 2". Terminal leaf petiole is 3/4 of an inch.
Secondary leaflets petiolulate.
Blooms are almost 2&1/2" inches across.
Keep in mind that this rose has been growing in poor conditions (dry shade) and not cared for at all.

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(no idea why my son put that chair outside)

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This is the color of the bloom today. Green eye.
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So, any ideas?

ogrose, so far i have 4, , one is grafted.
Michaelg, this rose does have prickles.
NY Steve, the bloom form on mine has a very flat top.
PortlandMysteryRose, it does look like that, but my blooms may be smaller. But that may not mean anything.
Harborrose-no I still don't have an ID on that one. It looks like r. glauca, but it is NOT thornless.

If it was connected with Mike Lowe, it literally could be just about anything, though I'd lean towards some sort of gallica/hybrid china.

Altorama

Thank you for posting the new photos. A moniker like Mad Gallica's indicates she will recognize one of her namesakes! The suggestion of gallica/ hybrid china, as opposed to hybrid perpetual or Portland, looks like a real possibility. Your rose's leaves are not as rugose as many gallicas. That is perhaps the china influence? The leaves are also more ovate (I think that's the third time I've used that word in 24 hours) than most gallicas. Your description of the plant's form--shortish, suckering, and arching--matches a gallica's. Is your rose remontant or is it once-blooming?

Fortified with Suzanne Verrier's book on gallicas and other resources at hand, I'll throw some suggestions on the table, some gallica starting points for other more experienced rosarians to nix or add to the list of possibilities. Your leaves alone may eliminate all of these, but I'll start the ball rolling. Eulalie Lebrun (Vibert), Emilie Verachter (Parmentier), Desiree Parmentier (Parmentier), Henri Fouquier (Unknown), Nestor (Laffay?), Ipsilante/Ypsilanti (Vibert),....

Can anyone more experienced take it from here?

Carol

I have that book too! I did look at it, I will take another look at it.
I am really wondering about Yoland d'Aragon..

Carol, thanks for replying.
Eulalie Lebrun - foliage is too glossy and smooth, blooms mottled.
Henri Fouquier-almost thornless, mine is very thorny.
Nestor is also nearly thornless.
Ipsilante-need to look into that a little more.
Emily Verachter-also nearly thornless, not much fragrance, while mine has a strong fragrance.
Thanks Carol!
I'll have to study my Vintage Catalog next..

I'm such a rose geek. I love researching mysteries like yours! Keep us posted.

Carol

Oh, and strong fragrance can be telling. Many gallicas (to my nose) not so much fragrance, not like Yolande's rich aroma.

What I love about Roses of Yesterday and Today: Last year I was looking for Madame Hardy. I saw online that they had it in a 5 gallon pot. I wrote to them and said i might be coming down in a month. They set Madame Hardy aside for me. There is a policy that you just walk in and put a check in a slot and take your rose. They set the best one aside for me. I was so pleased. The nursery is in a beautiful spot. We loved going there.

The last photo looks very much like a picture I took of my late Deuil de Dr. Reynaud, who fried to a frizzle in the only spot that was suitable for him. The foliage also looks similar.

Mention of Roses of Yesterday and Today made me feel very nostalgic, since it was the first place from which I ordered roses in the 80's. Every new catalog caused such excitement, as of course did every new rose that arrived. It was a very exciting time in my life in regard to the old roses, when learning about and having them was so new and exciting. (I'm happy to say that it's still exciting.)

Ingrid

Ingrid, they do look alike but the foliage on that one is more glossy than mine.
It would be good to compare buds.

Another list of posibilities. A lot of these are rare enough that eliminating them might prove difficult

Adele Prevost, Agathe Fatima, Agathe Incarnata, Alesandre Laquerment, Belle Doria, Juliette, and Rose du Maitre d'Ecole.

Ingrid---I had the same feeling when the catalog was mentioned---it also was my introduction to old roses--it gave me many hours of reading material---
Florence

>

I grow the second of those, and have looked at the first and third of them at SJHRG within the last couple of weeks.

SJHRG's Rose du Maitre d'Ecole has foliage which is strikingly similar to that of Gaspard Monge and "Dr. Peck's"/Charles Lawson of American commerce. Slightly thornier canes than the latter two, but definitely not as thorny as the rose pictured above. I'm guessing that the three are close relatives, resulting from breeding work in Angers. I'd recognize that group's foliage in an instant, and that's not it.

What I bought (RVR) as Agatha Incarnata has lighter flowers, and more textured foliage.

Agathe Fatime I'm not so sure about. The bloom looks close enough, and the thorns not far off, but my recollection of the foliage isn't very good. I usually associate the Agathe name with foliage which isn't as smooth as that, but Aimable Rouge has foliage which isn't far off, and someone once called it an Agathe, so I'm not taking anything for granted. I'll pay closer attention next time I'm at SJHRG.

Hmm... So far out o MadGlica's suggestions, Agathe Fatima looks closest based on buds, foliage, & stipules. I am not too concerned about the color of the blooms. However mine is not "nearly thornless".
The man who gave me the roses really does not know much about their history. His thing is vegetables and Iris.

I have a new list of possibilities
Agar, Agathe Fatine, Agathe Rose, Belle de Yebles, Capitaine Williams, Agathe Le Pelletier, Kawkasskaja, Louise Philippe, Duc de Cambridge, and Pergolese. So far.
Still not done, a lot of photos to check out from this other website.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosenfoto © Christine mile and Udo Karl

I'd stick with roses sold by Mike, or one of the Canadian companies. ROYAT is a possible source, but less likely. I don't remember the chronology of Royall River to know when they started, but in my day (1990's) the Maine nurseries seemed to be mostly resellers from Canadian wholesalers.

It is also possible that the east and west coasts were selling different roses under the same name. Roses marked by Vintage as acquired from Mike are definitely not going to have that issue.

Having just seen mention of the rose Agatha, and of "nearly thornless," I thought I'd post a pic of the bare root Agatha I recently received. Almost everyone (including the vendor I got it from) proclaims it to be thornless, or nearly so. Peter Beales is the only one who sells Agatha as "quite thorny."

ffff, that's pretty much what I have too.

Mad Gallica, how could I find out what Mike Lowe was selling in the late 70's/early 80's?

The ones I listed came out of his 1995 catalog. By then his interests had moved on to HPs, and the nursery had been officially renamed Lowe's Roses instead of Lowe's Own-Root Roses. The gallica list had probably changed little in years. However, that doesn't answer your question.

Thanks Mad Gallica.
Also, hopefully I thanked you years ago for recommending Glory of Edzell- absolutely love it.

Here's another bloom with a ploriferation. I hope I spelled that right.
Anyone have any ideas?
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It's spelled proliferation, but I have not a clue about the rose ID, Altorama. You and I have the same good taste in bud vases, though. I also have a rose in mine right now. :-) Just thought I'd toss that irrelevant information into the mix. I'm still following your thread but only following. This conversation is out of my league, so I'm gathering kernels of knowledge from exchanges between you and the others on your post. I love a good mystery!

Carol

So do I Carol!

Altorama, for what it's worth, below are some photos of the roses I have that were labeled Desiree Parmentier and Yolande d'Aragon. Click on photos to see larger images. (Sorry the leaves are not in great shape--I am a bad rose mom!)

I have had proliferation on DP--I think it's fairly common on that rose. My YdA has stiffer stems than my DP.
Marcia

DP leaves on left, YdA on right
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DP leaves & stem
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YdA - back of leaves
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YdA stem
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YdA leaves
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DP leaves and stem
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DP - group of roses
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YdA roses
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DP from a few years ago--see the bud proliferation on the left
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Thank you for all that work Marcia! I will compare everything tonight.

So I talked to my neighbor, he said that the rose has been there since at least 1954, when his in-laws bought the house. Got suckers and cuttings so hopefully will be able to ID it.