I use my fungicides in the exact same way (I've been using immunox now). I wait until my plants star to show signs of BS before spraying, or if i know we are going to get 4 or more days of rain non stop sometimes I spray the roses I know are more susceptible. Immunox says it "cures" blackspot which made me think it would save leaves that were only slightly affected like Bayer does but maybe not?
I do this in order to test which roses really are resistant to BS and which aren't. If I sprayed on a schedule I'll never know which ones are keepers for my "no spray or barely spray" garden. ;)

I really would like to move towards a no spray garden. All this talk of fungicides is making me want to even more. This year I have started buying roses only for their disease resistance. I have had good luck with some. Particularly Belinda's dream, Quietness and Queen of Sweden (Ausitn). Also Kordes' Lions Fairy Tale and mandarin ice and Buck's Polonaise have been good so far too.
I have Gemini, Shelia's Perfume and Moon Stone too which are all supposed to be "resistant" and so far so good, but its still too soon to tell. Any good BS fighters in your garden you'd like to share? I don't mind if they get a little BS at the bottom, as long as it doesn't defoliate the whole plant.

I grew roses in central and south east FL. for 38 years before retiring and moving to the north GA. mountains back in late 2008. The first couple of months of growing roses I knew if I wanted to grow the roses that I wanted, I needed to spray to have good clean bushs. That was back in 1975. The stuff we used back then was a little nasty. I sprayed every week for 11 months out of the year. It just became part of my life. Did I always wear the proper cloths? No. The one thing I did do was shower after I was finished. I started using the Bayer once I was convinced I could go 2 wks between spraying. My garden stays clean using the Bayer. Unless you have physical problems (skin, lungs. eyes) I wouldn't worry too much about Bayer being "nasty". Just clean up after spraying.

Tahitian Sunset is a vigorous bush that gets little BS in my garden. Thrips like it.

I think michael says it all. Yes, Bayer might be more toxic in certain circumstances, but you ARE going to spray. You DON'T want black spot. The Bayer will allow you to spray in longer intervals, which will mean less exposure for you and your garden.

I also live in a heavy blackspot area. This year our weather has been a bit weird, cooler and wetter than normal. I've only sprayed three times all year so far. Once when the roses leafed out (which was mid-April) another time right before the rose show in May and just the past weekend. A few of my roses were showing some yellow and spotted leaves, but it was time to cut them back after the spring flush anyway. I cut them back and then sprayed. I'm playing it by ear with the weather to see how often I need to spray. Usually when it's hot as heck in late July/August, I can go 3-4 weeks without spraying.

I wear gloves, long sleeves (shorts, it's too dang hot for long pants), eye protection and a hat. If I do feel some spray drip on me, I rinse it off right away. I treat the spray like bleach or other household chemical that I don't want to get on me. If you are careful, it limits your exposure.

dsd, the only bullet proof roses in my yard are noisettes, Reve d'Or and Crepescule. Teas also don't suffer that much from blackspot, but will get yellow and spotted leaves. HTs, I used to have a few that wouldn't get bs, but after time, they would be just as bad as the others.

The safety information on the label is better than nothing, but I recommend that one should look at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) information,

For the Bayer product it is at:
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/msds/M0920_-_Disease_Control_for_Roses,_Flowers,_and_Shrubs1.pdf

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For the Immunix product it is at: http://www.spectracide.com/~/media/Spectracide/Files/MSDS/Immunox/MSDS96881238845May12.ashx

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My understanding is that the drainage properties of Florida "soil" would be similar to New York sandy soil. http://www.floridagardener.com/misc/floridainfo.htm

New York has banned the Bayer product.
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/fung-nemat/tcmtb-ziram/tebuconazole/tebucon_den_0305.html
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The Gachomo experiment compared Folicur and Systhane. What the effect(s) of "secret" ingredients such as the spreader sticker would have on a comparison of the above relative to the 2 products that are being considered here is a complication. The interpretation of the Gachomo results is further complicated by fact that she used a concentration of active ingredient 1.25 higher than the label recommended concentration for the Bayer product.

(I have not attempted to convert what she used for the Synthane product to the label recommendation for the Immunix product.)
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Gachomo's results indicated that neither of the 2 products that she used at the concentrations that she used completely eliminated blackspot when applied 10 days after the infection was introduced and observed on day 14. The Systane (myclobutanil based) leaf showed considerable yellowing suggesting (to me) that the concentration used may have been too high or the inert ingredient(s) is affecting the leaf's health since I have not been able to find anyone who reports leaf yellowing with Immunix. (If anyone else knows of such a case, please let us know.)
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The following article appeared today.

http://www.clintonnc.com/view/full_story/22763678/article-Disease-control-important-to-keep-roses-healthy

"A recommended spray program includes the use of the following active ingredients: chlorothalonil and alternating with one of the following three fungicides: triforine, propiconazole, or myclonbutanil."

Please notice that an alternation of fungicides is recommended since use of a single fungicide will sooner or later result in blackspot resistance to the applied spray.

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agcollege/plantpathology/extension/kpn/current.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Disease-control-important-to-keep-roses-healthy

Has anyone used Bonide Copper Fungicide on roses? Is it safe, and does it work?

Has anyone used Bonide Copper Fungicide on roses? Is it safe, and does it work?

I grow mostly hybrid teas in zone 5b and for several years I have had very good luck with the fungicide that I have been using. It is an arsenic and cyanide based solution that does an excellent job in fighting blackspot. I spray it every other week starting in spring and I haven't had a case of blackspot in years.

The only downside of this is that for several days after the spraying, I find dead birds and squirrels all over my garden for some reason. Several of my nose neighbors have suggested that what I'm spraying may be dangerous, but hey, what can I do?? Dirty looks from my neighbors are far less annoying then spotted rose leaves:)

Maude

Ok, just kidding in that last post. Seriously though, I have been using Bayer for about three years now and it does seem to do the trick. I was concerned about using chemicals in the beginning, but after I do my Sunday gardening I always come in and shower and change anyway.

What I like about the Bayer advanced is that it is sooooo inexpensive compared to the other fungicides that I have seen. Since I have quite a number of roses, that does make a difference to me:)

Maude

I'm a bit north of Florida, but this part of South Carolina has sandy soil and is definitely in the middle of black spot hell, so what I have to offer may be relevant.

Bayer makes a number of products to combat rose disease. The one I like best is Bayer 3-in-1 (aka Bayer All-in-One). Bayer puts all of its products in blue bottles, so you need to read the labels carefully to make sure you get the correct one.

The Bayer 3-in-1 Rose & Flower treatment is a liquid insecticide/fungicide/miticide concentrate that you dilute and pour around rose bushes.

Several people in my rose society go this route to cut down on spraying. Some of them say they have to use the drench more often than indicated in the directions on the bottle.

Personally, I've used the 3-in-1 treatment for the past 6 years and it works fairly well. Still, I do have some HTs that will get black spot in spite of the 3-in-1 drench.

One of the best treatments for preventing and curing black spot is Manzate (aka Pentathlon). It is one of the few chemicals that will kill (not just prevent) established blackspot.

For established blackspot, spray manzate every other day for a week, then resume your regular disease prevention program.

Many hard-core rose growers routinely add manzate to their spray routine.

Personally, I spray roses twice a month from March through October. I alternate Banner Maxx, Bayer and Compass and put manzate in the mix every time. When we're expecting rain or just after a rain, especially in the summer when we get rain almost every day, I may do an extra spray with just manzate.

While some people call me a spray queen, there is method to my madness. I know that if I want to grow gorgeous HTs, they will need regular spraying & feeding.

Fine. I plant all my HTs in one special rose garden. Roses I plant elsewhere around the homestead have to be more disease resistant. And others have to be no-spray because they are in places where it is not convenient to spray.

The sprayer I use most often for rose spraying is a Gilmour Professional Hose End Sprayer with a brass mixing head. It's about $16 at the hardware store. It delivers a powerful stream that gets through foliage. It sprays quickly, too.

Just writing to express a pet peeve, as a non US based gardener. Why do friends from the States insist on referring to pesticides and fungicides just with their brand names and not with the active ingredients they contain? Just for the information of anybody interested the discussion here is about tebuconazole (the Bayer product) vs myclobutanil (the Immunox product). Brand names may differ from market to market and for ingredients not protected anymore by patents (such as myclobutanil) more than one brand names may exist. Also by referring to the active ingredient(s) much more info may be gathered from the internet by those interested.
Nik

PS1 Manzate, also mentioned, contains mancozeb.
PS2 In my experience a myclobutanil + mancozeb combination will go a long way towards producing satisfactory results. Myclobutanil by itself while quite effective on powdery mildew is less effective on many strains of blackspot. Both mancozeb and myclobutanil are considered relatively benign, if such a thing can be said of synthetic fungicides of an organic (in the chemical sense) nature.
PS3 If one follows a strict spraying regime then, IMO, one should rotate active ingredients from different classes (with different modes of action) in an attempt at reducing the chance of resistant strains developing. That is one more reason why the active ingredient must be known. Both tebuconazole and myclobutanil belong in the triazoles (Group 3) so alternating between these two will not help with resistance.

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Mon, Mar 17, 14 at 11:54

I don't think you will find many posters on this forum who will support these last couple spraying programs.

Kate

I have had a regular spraying program for a long time. I usually use the tebuconazole as the backbone of my spray program, but I also use chlorothalonil, propiconazole, mancozeb, a few other assorted ones from time to time, along with aspirin and harpin. I usually spray about every 2 weeks. It takes me anywhere from 3 to 4 hours of dragging that sprayer around to spray my garden. Sometimes I add an insecticide, but not usually. If there is a bug infestation, a dish soap solution drowns them quite effectively. What I find that is the key, but variable, component in this whole exercise is the weather and its effect on disease resistance. If the weather has been a gradual warm-up from February through April without wild freeze-fry cycles, the disease resistance and flowering patterns in the plants are much better. I saw this especially in 2012, the year it got warm early and stayed hot all summer with a bad drought. I had very little disease at all that year and several other years when the weather was not harsh. Last year, it started out and stayed cool. I thought it was okay. Then it warmed up good and turned around and froze hard in May with a snowstorm. I had more blackspot last year than I have seen in a long time since I started using the harpin. When plants get set back hard, disease resistance goes down. Same thing in animals and people. Some kind of trauma happens, and disease resistance takes a hit. I do all this spraying because I have found that plant health is critical for surviving the winters. The results for the most part are worth it especially since blackspot is eventually quite debilitating.

I was wondering if prochloraz is used on roses in the States and if yes what people's experiences are.
Nik

niki, it's possible that many people don't know the actual chemicals and only know what they use by the brand name or even what the bottle looks like.

When I do spray, I use the Bayer (tebuconazole) usually every 2-3 weeks. I like the Bayer because it is systematic and I can usually spread it out, so I'm spraying less often. And it's effective. I plan to do my first spraying of the year this weekend as many of my plants have leafed out. I have some roses that don't need it and I usually skip them. And I have a butterfly garden that doesn't get sprayed under any circumstances. If I get some black spot or other fungal diseases, I'm ok with that.

I live where BS is a big problem. I've been totally no-spray for about 7 years and have seen a decline/death in many varieties of roses (hybrid perpetuals, bourbons, some Austins, etc) and eliminated many roses from my garden as a result. I can understand why some people would not want to go that route and make the hard choices I've made.

Before that I had tried some organic sprays including baking soda, Neem oil, and sulfur. The baking soda and Neem were not effective at all given our high BS pressures. The sulfur was somewhat effective, but had to be applied frequently (once a week) because it was not systemic and rain would wash it off. I stopped when it got really hot out to avoid burning the rose leaves. Even infrequent spraying of sulfur helped susceptible roses from defoliating until late in the season and they had more vigor to overwinter stronger than not spraying at all.

A rose friend of mine is a chemist and suggested to me that the safest and effective non-organic spray available (that they use too) is Propiconazole, available in Honor Guard and BannerMaxx here. I tried it myself for two years prior to going no-spray and it was very effective and took less labor compared to the sulfur. It only needs to be sprayed every 2 weeks and is systemic. I sprayed less than that and saw good control. I took precautions like wearing eye protection, a respirator, long sleeves, and long pants. But ultimately I didn't comfortable with that and now don't use anything.

Note that if you use a combination product like the Bayer, you are also spraying an insecticide in addition to fungicide. That can have more harmful biological effects and also kill beneficial insects such as ladybugs and bees and harm the natural equilibrium of your garden.

Nik, I have read a lot of fungicide labels, and I have not seen prochloraz sold at the home gardener level in the US. Doing some searches, I cannot find any products sold in the US with this as an active ingredient. I hope some of our resident chemists weigh in.

Just a clarification , Lori: SOME Bayer products are combinations of fungicide and insecticides. But not all Bayer products are combinations. The Bayer fungicide many posters refer to here is NOT a combination--it is ONLY a fungicide.

Anything listed as Bayer 3-in-1 or 2-in-1 or something like that also includes an un-needed insecticide. My recommendation is to avoid those combos like the plague!

Kate

The 3-1 is also a drench, not a spray. The 2-1 is granules.

I've been growing roses a long time (1973 or 74). Up until late 2008 in central and southeast FL. I enjoy HT's, so I've sprayed. Eleven months out of the year, every week. Some of the stuff I've used over the years has been banned. Just before I moved to GA. I started using Banner Maxx with Mancozeb every 2 wks. It works. Up here in GA. I alternate with between Banner Maxx with Mancozed and Bayer Disease Control every two weeks. Keeps everything I want to grow clean. Notice I said, "I". Not what someone else wants me to grow. This rose hobby is for "YOU", not someone else. Grow the roses you want to grow. If they need to be sprayed and you are OK with it, spay to keep them clean. I don't grow roses to keep everyone else happy. I grow them to keep me happy. Think about that before you start pulling up roses.

Yeah well, we share a planet....not just inhabit our little bit of space - I find the 'I grow what I like attitude regardless' to be more selfish and belligerent than I would be comfortable with, from either myself or my neighbours.

In internet parlance - just sayin.

ken-n.ga.mts,

Alternating between propiconazole and tebuconazole makes no sense to me in respect of resistance avoidance (both are the same MOA Group 3 triazoles) and it also probably makes little sense to me in terms of increased efficacy. Of course I'm not an expert so I'm all ears on this.
Nik

Nik---I alternate to help keep any blackspot fungus from building up any resistance to just one type of chemical. I had read something several years ago about certain blackspot spores building up resistance to one chemical if used continuously. It makes sense. So I alternate. Sometimes I'll use the same chemical two or three times in a row before I switch over. All I know is ever since I started alternating chemicals, my roses have stayed clean from April all the way into November when I shut the garden down. I don't use any chemicals that are against the law (local or federal) to use in the home garden nor do I grow any roses or plants that are against the law (local or federal) to grow.

Regarding manganese based fungicides, the following Google search may be of interest.

Here is a link that might be useful: manganese and children Google search

ken-n.ga.mts,

As I said, alternating between chemicals of the same mode of action group (MOA) is of little or no use regarding resistance management, as I understand it. Both these active ingredients are of the same group and are very similar chemicals (Group 3, triazoles).

That's one of the reasons I wrote earlier that knowing the active ingredients is useful, rather than knowing only the commercial brand name.
Nik

henry_kuska,

Thanks for the link. Virtually all elements that are needed for plant (or animal for that matter) nutrition can be toxic in higher concentrations. Please try to grow plants in a manganese-less environment and see what happens. Concentration of manganese in the environment can increase due to a plethora of natural processes and human activities. One such activity is composting....Mancozeb poses a health risk as most synthetic pesticides and fungicides do and NOT mainly due to the manganese involved (which is not easily broken down to elementary manganese in water afaik). Btw, I can also google and I do. Thanks again.
Nik

Here is a link that might be useful: Mancozeb

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Tue, Mar 18, 14 at 13:23

As brought up in the one post I would grow hot and wet climate adapted roses like teas and chinas if I was in that situation. When you choose plants that are suited to your site conditions you eliminate a lot of basis for conflict.

Old garden roses are any that are old, this includes many small-growing kinds such as various chinas.

There are very few roses that will not get blackspot in the southeast and other hot humid climates. Even teas and chinas get it. Some noisettes are resistant, Reve d'Or and Crepescule have always done well for me.

Most OGRs get blackspot in my yard. I'm experimenting with some new (to me) OGRs to see how they do.

nikthegreek, the link that you posted to mancozeb is undated but one can hopefully get a guess as to when written since it states that: "A recent study...." The reference referred to is a 2001 reference. In terms of chemical safety I consider something around 2002-3 to be mainly of historical interest.

The link below is to a 2013 reply to a Canadian reapproval action. I hope each reader will read the entire article but of particular interest to me is the following: "Mancozeb has not been approved for residential use for many years and the proposed label warning confirms the danger of mancozeb in residential or schoolyard settings:
This product is not to be used around homes or other residential areas such as parks, school grounds and/or playing fields. It is not for use by homeowners or other uncertified users."
I realize that this is for Canada and not for the U.S. (apparently New York has such an ornamental use ban), but I suggest looking at how a chemical is being treated in other nations as our EPA appears to be very slow in reacting to dangerous chemicals.
----------------------------------------
The statement was made by nikthegreek: "manganese involved (which is not easily broken down to elementary manganese in water afaik)".

H.Kuska comment: I do not understand this statement. Are you saying that elemental manganese is the dangerous compound? When scientists talk about the dangers of manganese, they are not talking about the dangers of elemental manganese. The most common oxidation state is Mn+2. This is a small relatively highly charged ion that can fit it in many biological process and cause mischief. See the following reaction:
"Figure.2 Proposed mechanism of dopamine oxidation by manganese"
http://www.manganese-health.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/53171/Overview_of_Research_into_the_Health_Effects_of_Manganese.pdf

Another literature example:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0041008X00990884

Here is a link that might be useful: Link for Canadian Reapproval action.

Here we go again. :)

This thread is convincing me to stop spraying altogether. Up until now, I've only used copper and sulphur,but still...
henry_kuska,your contributions are always interesting and helpful...

I have cut down on my spraying. But I can't have roses without it. So I do believe it's worth it to use the most effective spray, one that lasts 2-3 weeks or more between sprayings and be proactive so you don't get an outbreak. Less spray is better for the environment and me.

I live in a humid part of SC. UGH. It's buggy and humid.
Gardenias grow great here, but I am determined to grow roses.
We have absolutely horrible sandy, acidic soil with little nutrients and nemotodes.
I have resorted to growing my roses in big pots.
I will grow roses.
I use Organicide on my rose bushes. I also use it on other shrubs against scale.
It will really help with your blackspot and bugs.
I DO grow in pots, so my roses are not in the soil, they have potting soil, and I use the Specricide bug killer for roses in the pots. It's not Bayer, I buy it at my local nursery, but it's not organic like Organicide, so I restrict it to only pot bound plants.
I like worms and don't want the Specricide in my soil to kill them.
Go to HD, grab a bottle of Organicide and read it.
Totally safe, for pets, kids, people, kills fleas in your lawn, and believe me, it works on your rose bushes.
You dilute it in a spray bottle.
Use every 10 days, or as needed.
Good Luck.

"Yeah well, we share a planet....not just inhabit our little bit of space - I find the 'I grow what I like attitude regardless' to be more selfish and belligerent than I would be comfortable with, from either myself or my neighbors."

Yup.

I've come to think along these lines: "if you wouldn't put it on your breakfast cereal, you shouldn't put it into the soil or the water or the air".

Just sayin'

After nearly five years of "no spray" growing, I can state that 85% of modern (20th century) roses can not be grown in my region without chemical intervention. Such roses are no longer welcome in my garden. I see a day when we will have no "better living through chemistry" options, and I'm planning to be ready for that.

Paul, you and me as well. There are so many beautiful ones you can grow without chemicals. Yes..it is frustrating at times. BUT I love the bees in my garden and all of God's creatures.

My husband and I have this small snack company and we call on a oil place..What they do there is beyond me..there are huge smoke stacks and so on. They have the most un natural green grass..all season long..even in winter. I always think it looks like a stepford yard..lol. Very weird. Wonder what chemicals they are using on that!

Well, I used to do the spray-thing, have grown roses over 50 years and tore my hair out here in Fla. One day the spray-man didn't clean his tank and killed most of my beauties.... I did some research and went to some meetings of the Heritage Rose Society in Lakeland, at FSC... and bought some antique roses.... now I have not sprayed for over 3 years, have almost no BS, and the roses thrive with gorgeous blooms... China, Noisette, old Teas are the answer...Louis Philippe, Ducher, Spice, Crepuscule, Rosette Delizy, Mrs BR Cant, Mons Tillier, Prosperity, Rockhill Peach, Belfield, and so many more get along just fine w/o poisons...also Drift roses, Belinda's Dream, KOs.... also, many of these antiques resist the Chili-Thrips, they just don't get 'em at all........ for the roses that do fall victim to the Chili-thrips, Imidicloprid is recommended, a systemic by Bayer, in liquid and granular, good for 12 months and applied in Spring..... just my 2 cents worth on this topic.....sally

China, Noisette, old Teas are the answer

I'm glad you found satisfying roses that do well in your region.

Of course, that is not a solution for a large part of the U.S. which is in colder zones. Those roses that do so well in Florida and related areas wouldn't make it through the winter in much of the rest of America.

Kate

Saldut, for sure. My own root Octavia Hill is in the shade and I'm in the PNW. She does not get one spot and thrives every year.

I hope I don't cause a war with this... but

I use neem to control fungal diseases. It's important to note though, I use pure cold pressed neem and not a distillate product or the laughable serenade. I use it blended with a sticker/carrier (fish hydrolysate) and an emulsifier (a dash of biodegradable dish soap - otherwise the oil is just going to sit on top like un-whisked salad dressing) and I apply it weekly to bi-weekly.

Now, I certainly don't have the same disease pressures as you, but I can say after our ridiculously wet and cold spring last year here in Iowa - I was the only one in town without a spot of scab, black spot, or anything else of fungal nature on my plants.

Jjstatz29 can you share with us the exact brand of neem oil/sticker etc that you use and where you purchase it? I'd be willing to give this a try. I'm currently pregnant and have a youngin' at home so I have not sprayed in months (8 months to be exact). I dont plan on starting again until after baby is born and then I intend to use something organic. Also just to note, I lost many roses when I stopped spraying, but many also survived and those that did we're mostly on fortuniana root stalk, a few own root and a few David Austin's and dr Huey's (lost about half if these). I lost all that where on multiflora (was foolish of me to even get them, they are the worst for FL I later found out, had gotten them from edmunds).

I use neem oil from Ahimsa alternative - http://www.neemresource.com/

I buy my fish/seaweed hydrolysate from neptune's harvest
http://www.neptunesharvest.com/fs-191.html

or I buy from brown's for just straight fish hydrolysate
http://brownsfishfertilizer.com/products-page/

Some notes about using...

Neem - you have to keep it cold, I split the gallon container into smaller bottles (it hardens when cold, so you'll have to either dunk the gallon container in a sink of hot water or leave it sitting out on a warm day) - Shake it thoroughly and divide into very tightly closing smaller bottles.

When you plan on spraying - take the bottle out, put it in a sink of hot water until it returns to liquid state. I usually pour the portion I need (.5 fl oz per gallon - a tablespoon) into a bucket and then return the bottle to the fridge, add my 1 ounce (1/8th cup per gallon of water) fish hydrolysate (be sure to thoroughly shake the container before measuring it out - be warned - this stuff is smelly), and scant tablespoon of biodegradable soap - I get 7th generation - it's cheap & readily available.

Then I add about half the water I need and stir it several times in one direction and then switch directions with a dedicated whisk. Pour into sprayer add remaining amount of water needed, close your sprayer, shake thoroughly and start spraying (make sure their are no oil droplets at the top of the solution - neem has to be thoroughly mixed to be effective - think like salad dressing - who likes separated salad dressing? yuck.

I prefer spraying right before sundown or even at night (with a flashlight... my neighbors naturally think I'm nuts) and to the point of runoff. Be sure to get undersides of leaves.

Why near or at night? This is when the stomata are opening up on the plant - in other words, the pores of the plant are open. You'll get the maximum uptake and benefit from spraying at this time and it gives the maximum time for the plant to avoid sunburn. I do this about once a week during times of high disease pressure and then back off to bi-weekly when disease pressure goes down - if it rains, I spray the next day or as soon as possible (assuming it isn't just going to rain the next day... then I wait)

As always - be sure to test an inconspicuous area of the plant and allow a week to make sure their aren't burn issues.

If you, after a few weeks, aren't seeing an improvement in plant health - up your spray concentration by half a percent. Per gallon, for example, if you started at .5%% dilution - go up to 1% (1 fl ounces per gallon, 2 tablespoons).

Few other pieces of advice - this stuff is smelly. Neem has a very strong garlic-nutty smell and fish hydrolysate... well it smells like rotten fish (trust me the cold process hydrolysate smells A WHOLE lot better than the cheaper, less effective hot processed stuff... ugh). Be assured it dissipates quickly - if the scent really is bothersome you can add a drop or two of a fragrance oil - peppermint is particularly effective.

Neem and fish hydrolysate once mixed - have to be used immediately upon mixing - they break down rapidly in solution - if you sprayed everything and have some left, use it as a soil drench or spray it on something you don't normally spray. It'll be glad for it. Thoroughly rinse your sprayer after every use - I fill mine with water and just use it to water plants, silly to waste the good stuff. I try to think of it as being like licking the brownie batter off the spoon.

This should go without saying, but don't spray it on the blooms. Buds are absolutely fine - but blooms and less so buds are much more prone to phytotoxicity (burn). Do not spray during foraging times for beneficials - (shouldn't be too much of a problem at night).

DO NOT spray on host plants for butterflies/native endagered insects - Azadirachtin (the main active compound in Neem) interrupts the molting process of insects that consume it. Butterfly caterpillars, that eat and live on their respective host plants that are treated with neem (or any other spray for that matter) will die. If you don't know what that includes, I'd contact your local extension office.

You should see improvement in just about any plant you use this on. I pretty much use it on everything that isn't a host plant in my garden and this is also the same basic formulation I spray on my orchard. Also, the fish hydrolysate is more than just a sticker/carrier - it's also a fantastic fertilizer - I use the same spray formulation (1/2 fl oz neem, 1 fl oz fish per gallon) as a soil drench aka fertilizer.

Hope that answers some questions

Jordan - Organic/Holistic Orchardist and Gardener

This post was edited by jjstatz29 on Wed, Mar 26, 14 at 10:12

I had over 150 roses for years and I found alternating sprays was essential.There are newer sprays now but I found Daconil alternating with a Sulfur spray to work well. My friend, Mrs. Lampkin, had roses over 20 years old and she sprayed weekly. Has anyone tried a slurry of cinnamon. I grow orchids now and orchid get lots of fungus problems. Many orchid growers swear by cinnamon. Buy it at Sams or cisco in large containers. The best advice if you live in a sandy soil environment is to make a raised bed with lots of organic material and use roses grafted on a nematode resistant rootstock for a much hardier longer lived bush.

Usually skip this subject since I've no experience with sprays besides some traditionals like sulfur & copper used many moons ago on fruit trees. Given my ignorance & the range of opinions, hesitant to even stick a toe in these waters, but (here we go) feel the need to share some thoughts.

We all acknowledge we can't grow some roses as perennials in the open garden due to intrinsic climate & site unsuitability, available space & individual practical considerations at any given time. We intentionally eliminate some roses from consideration for not meeting our bloom & growth preferences. Of those we do select, some will self-eliminate despite our care or be rejected down the road for not living up to expectations or no longer appealing as our tastes change.

The most critical of my criteria for choosing any rose is its reputation for health & vitality in conditions similar to my own. Gardening more than 50 years in typically humid & fungal prone locations zoomed this to the top of the list long ago. Heavy physical reactions to all the "-cides" except elemental since childhood prohibits their use, as does my philosophical worldview. So I garden the old-fashioned way, pre sophisticated chemical compounds, by necessity.

From my point of view, the health potential of any plant is expressed by positive response to its environment - nature vs. nurture - and the availability of the elements & conditions it needs to thrive tilt the odds to favor this expression. We all know moving a shaded rose into more sunlight often "cures" its blackspot outbreak, athough fungal exposure hasn't changed, and that roses sometimes outgrow these outbreaks with maturity. Believe boosting the plant's immune system by helping nature provide those essentials allows it to function optimally on its own, so concentrate my efforts on these aspects. (Same principles as human health. Incidentally, fortify my immune function with the internal products of plants' immune systems - essential oils - borrowing from the plants as it were, the core of traditional botanical medicine.)

When we first came to this garden 16 years ago, it had been installed & maintained by a college groundskeeper for 7 years on heavy-duty chemical prevention principles. Extensive shrubbery had been maintained with yearly chunky woodchips atop that of prior applications - 6" worth suffocating the soil without deteriorating though covered in sour-smelling fungus. Couldn't find a worm wherever I dug outside the woods & not a bug, good or bad, in evidence besides mosquitos, flies & chiggers. The few roses were dwindling away under this treatment, bare shadows of their potential. Reversed that trend with organic husbandry & the worms returned. Fed the beneficial microorganisms that fed the worms that till & aerate the soil & the soil web reestablished itself to create an environment in which suitable plants can thrive. For years now, the gardens have welcomed a wide variety of inhabitants that appear to have found an interwoven balance with which I'd be loath to meddle. Beneficials & birds keep the ruffians in check most seasons with an assist from the hose. One year the garden club girls (one fellow joined as I was leaving) spent an entire initial meeting exclaiming about decimation the Japanese beetles wrought over the Summer. Apparently no one believed my surprise & report that only a few spotted here that season not far from their gardens, or they might have wondered what could be different here...

Many roses brought in over the years, some with blackspot or mildew from travel stress, so likely a mix of farflung varieties present. Most got over it, as have those which arrived this humid rainy season, including a spotted Buff Beauty bought locally. Fungals show up here & there in small bouts with minor fleeting consequence (knock on wood).

Still not brave enough to intentionally choose roses not known for their good health, some of those with mixed reviews doing well. Those among the dear departed were dispatched by deer, storms, cold, neglect & seeming suicide. Shovel pruned 2 for RRD. In my book, really not a bad record for all the years & varieties attempted. Saved a lot of bucks & effort counted up over time, alternately spent on new plants & garden stuff. But then, an admittedly lazy gardener relying on simple methods to support health, the weather gods (as do we all) & beneficial energies...

Longwinded way of saying it can be done - growing roses naturally in the humid fungus-ridden Southeast - by way of encouragement to those considering a change of method & solidarity with those already doing it, too.

This post was edited by vasue on Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 21:37

I usually try to stay out of the discussions of fungicides and discussions of South Florida.

In reference to fungicides, I have never treated a single rose bush with fungicide here - organic or otherwise. I had to give up on some roses; I have a very limited selection; and I add only a few each year.

I try to stay out of South Florida discussions because I know that it is not like here, Central Florida, and from all I've read on this forum South Florida is a nightmare by comparison. However, Central Florida is no day dream.

I'm writing to say that I am very impressed that you are working toward getting away from fungicides. That desire alone is admirable and I want to encourage you to keep working at it.

You asked about other success stories. As is ofen repeated on these rose forums, Souvenir de la Malmaison sings Dixie almost all year long. It has never lost its leaves in any winter since I've had it so it does the yellow leaves thing - the old leaves turn yellow, die, and fall off. Sometimes there can be a noticeable number of them. Mostly it is quite a fine plant here. Kronpriness Victoria, SDLM's sport, is like that here too. Hot Cocoa was doing reasonably well here until I mostly massacred it needlessly in a RRD panic attack.

I usually research and provide links to threads I reference, but I don't have time right now - Roseseek has discussed how stressed roses will succumb to disease attack when they normally would not. I have observed this with Polonaise. When I and Mother Nature together err in quenching Polonaise's thirst, then I quickly see blackspot. Otherwise, it performs well for me too.

I have a grafted Don Juan that given its location where its bare legs aren't noticable, is quite good - especially for blooms. It is the only rose I ever consider cutting for the house because the first time I did it, the bloom lasted at least a week and looked unbelievably nice the entire time.

My Lion's Fairy Tale is and has been spotless since it recovered from transplant shock when I planted it three or four years ago. It has been performing better every year and I must say: I like that in a rose.

I have a rule that I won't recommend (or say nice things about) a rose until it is at least two and half to three years old - I grow own root and it takes a while. There are other roses that I would like to say nice things about, but my rule prevents me.

I don't grow any of the true tea roses, but they are all well touted for surviving without spray. If I remember correctly, someone did a test and found that Mrs B.R. Cant could even be grown by the landscaping crowd.

Good luck.

I am a little horrified, as I'm not a huge rose grower. Have 13 bushes total at one time over 20 years. I only used Mancozeb 750 WG once last Fall, as the Black spot was hitting almost every plant terribly. Other than that time, never remember using anything to treat this disease. One poster said Mancozeb was not available to residential. Then how was it sold to me? I'm residential, not commercial. It left a yellowy powder on the leaves & I did it once a week for three weeks. That was it. I hate, hate, hate using chemicals. Normally I would not have, but the Black spot was so awful. Don't know that I'll be using anything or the left over Mancozeb anymore--not after hearing all this.

I see some old friends here. Nice discussion and always interesting. I use Bayer and don't have too many roses that require spraying. No matter the BS, my love for roses never wanes.
I'm anxious to look up something I think Michael suggested and some of the other chemicals here, just for thought sake. Hope you are all doing well.

Carla

You have to use a spreader with Manzcozeb.

I've been to no spray gardens here in Atlanta, the Botanical garden has one with many OGR. They may not completely defoliate, but to me they look horrid this time of year. Sparse yellow and spotted leaves. Not the way I want my yard to look.

My routine is to spray early on in the spring when the roses leaf out and then every 2-3 weeks after that. If you wait until you see BS, you will spend more time and more spray trying to get rid of it. Prevention is key. So even with organics, you should use them regularly. I do everything else organic. We just switched to an organic lawn service, I stopped using RU and use this new Ecosmart spray for weeds, if I have to. And I only use organic fertilizers. I don't subscribe to the idea that all chemicals are bad. Too much chemicals, maybe. So I try for a balance.

Spectricide AND Bayer All-In-One Eval:

I've used Spectricide Immunox for 20 years & the Concentrate Spray DOES work! I also have the Bayer "All-In-One" Rose & Flower Care. After just 2 days of nighttime rain, my gorgeous double grafted potted rose, is covered in Black Spot. And this just happened over the past 4-5 days! In fact, I was marveling to myself 5 days ago, how gorgeous & disease-free my new rose looks. (pretty dumb of me, I jinxed my rose!.)

To be honest & maybe it's my own imagination & bias, but I prefer the Spectricide because I can see it going on to the foliage & it does work fast. It's the putting it directly on the leaves that makes me feel more secure. (Again, pretty dumb)

The Bayer product, I have to wait & hope it's working long-term. I guess this is foolish but I know the Immunox does work. What I don't know is, do the fungi etc., develop a chemical resistacet?

Today I'm going to apply the Immunox on 2 of my roses; it's: 4/28/21. I'll apply the Bayer All-in-one on the other 2 roses.

Let's hope I'll come back on this site & say: "Both work as advertised" & my roses look disease free & gorgeous. Let's see?