Hi Barbara, I've gardened no spray in NC and VA. IMHO you need to vet your roses against the lists of other no spray gardeners in your area. A rose with poor BS resistance will never 'toughen up' and you're wasting valuable garden space on it. A rose with occasional mildew in spring is fine with me but others may not tolerate that.
So...post your list of questionable roses and others in your area can make informed suggestions.

I agree with Cecily. There are a lot of roses that are supposedly no spray that don't even come close on the east coast. And anything that is already in trouble, is going to be trouble.

Having never really had a spray program, I'm skeptical about a transition period, at least for disease. I don't tend to buy roses locally, so there isn't a question of whether or not they've been sprayed with potentially long acting systemics before arriving here. Sometimes the weather is more conducive to blackspot than other years.

This is just a thought, but what about reviewing those roses that haven't done particularly well even with spraying? Perhaps those would be good candidates for the shovel since you already know they're poor performers. This will make room for new roses that others in your area can tell you do well without spraying. By the way, congratulations on your decision to go no spray. I'm sure the birds, insects and other wildlife will soon regard your garden as a haven and will help you in your efforts to achieve a beautiful, natural environment that's good for everyone including you, your children and your pets.

Ingrid

I agree with Cecily.
Some of this is really location-specific -- and I have never dealt with real blackspot problems.
Even the "beneficial critters" may be different for you. (You may not have lizards?)

Nor do we out here have some of the insect pressures you have.
But -- to generalize just a little . . .
I think, after the first year, some failures were obvious. Those were removed.
More roses fell by the wayside over the following 2-3 years, until we achieved some sort of stability.

But some roses still come in -- go on probation, and may be removed after a couple of years.

Our other big pressure out here is going to be water. We know it's going to be rationed.
We just don't know how strictly.

Jeri

Barbara,
I think you know that I haven't sprayed in three years. It's been a default position because of drought and family problems and well problems.
This year had a wet spring, so it differs from the previous three years.
But I am watching what diseases happen and when they start.
This year's PM was no where near as disasterous as last years. The once blooming bushes that had a PM problem will get a more thorough 'spring' pruning later this week, just as soon as temps will let me outside without exhaustion.
And the high temperatures do have a positive. They take the roses out of the window of optimal BS pressures.
And then there is cane health.
I wonder at the efficacy of cane removal over winter to reduce disease pressure within a rose bush. It's working with some.
I just wish some of my rose growing friends locally weren't so wedded to major -cide spray programs.
Ann

I had some slight problems with blackspot after planting Tiffany and Reines des Violettes because they had been used to being sprayed in a greenhouse environment. I am no longer having much problem after 9 months of no spray. I do pick off the few infected leaves as I see them, but as a whole, not much problem, and the bushes are very attractive - full, leafy, and green.

In my opinion, after a year in the ground, or being tested in a pot, you should see some improvemnent as far as fungal disease goes. If not, then the rose most likely will not adapt. Slight problems are to be expected, and if the rose still looks good and blooms, I tolerate minor amounts. I do not tolerate large amounts of disease, or rose bushes that are defoliated all the time.

It will take two years of not spraying insecticides before you will notice a balance with the insect population. It calls for a lot of teeth gritting and tolerance during this period of time. It's worth it though. Plants that are pest magnets when others are not, are ill-suited to that particular environment, virused, or otherwise not of genetically sound stock, and should not be grown.

It takes a long time for the beneficials to recover from spray damage. The "bad" insects seem to rebound quickly, and develop resistance. The beneficials WILL come back, but it takes a little time.

Feeding the rose bushes, and the soil with organic material and fertilizers keep roses extremely healthy. I have some roses that typically would be full of blackspot, but are healthy, very bushy, and well foliated. In addition to the two mentioned above, I have Don Juan, Queen Elizabeth, Mr. Lincoln, Autumn Damask, Stanwell Perpetual, Kronprinsessin, and Lady Hillingdon; all bushes which a great number of people have blackspot problems with. I do not have any trouble with these bushes. I have other roses also, but these in particular have been complained about at one time or another.

Good soil, water, and full sun will keep an adapted rose for the most part disease and pest free. I do not even have much of a thrips problem anymore.

Sandy

Barbara, before i sp the roses, i would remove all the mulch from around the roses and plant some grass seed around them. Or you can just let the water grass or see what grows around them. I know bs is here, i have never sprayed for it, but when i quit using wood mulches and let the grass grow around them, sometimes i have had to even dig them out of the grass, the only bs i have had has been on the lowest to the ground leaves. We have had a rather wet year, and it could be all the rain washes the spores off. I got home after 2weeks and some of my roses were buried by grass, so i cut it all and tacked down some burlap, so i'll see how that does.

Along the lines of what len511 shared about watering overhead, I heard second-hand from a person who waters overhead every morning (giving the roses time to dry off before evening)and never has problems with blackspot or powdery mildew. I believe there is big truth to having rain or hose wah the spores off. Of course, if you are in drought area like Jeri that changes things a bit.

Jeri, do you have a way of collecting greywater from your kitchen sink or clothes washer? That could be used to water your plants, as long as you don't flush toxic stuff down your drains and use an earth-friendly soaps. A dear friend of mine allows her washer to draininto a large trash can. A sump pump carries it from there to a large stock tank outside. There it sits until they drain it around the trees with a hose or dip into it with a watering can for her garden. She does keep a screen over it to prevent little critters falling in and drowning.

Thank you all! Yes, I agree that a specific rose can be a blessing in one garden and a curse in another. I am somewhat aware of which roses may grow well for me and which ones will not. For example, I do not grow any hybrid teas or noisettes. Those I had did miserably for me (this was before I sprayed). Specifically, I'm wondering if some of the old Gallicas, Damasks, Albas, Hybrid Musks, Multiflora Hybrids, Polyanthas, Chinas and Teas will develop more disease resistance from year to year. Opps, forgot the spinosissimas like Stanwell and Golden Wings and the Buck Roses, English and ARE Pioneer Roses. This is what I grow. (plus Rugosas that have never been sprayed) I strongly suspect the English may be the first to go.

Ann, yes, I think getting rid of diseased canes over the winter as they show signs helps the rose rebound better in the spring. PM usually doesn't hit me until mid-summer. The really bad instances I had last year got a thorough prunning this spring. Mostly Polys. We'll see.

As far as midge is concerned, here is what I'm doing. I have deadheaded the fried roses (due to the heat wave) in two beds so far and noted the incidence of midge. There were no surprises. Those that had been magnets before were as well again. Lesser incidence on neighbors. It's early yet. I have cut all midge infected growth and even some that looked suspicious. I will continue to do so all season. If necessary, I'll cut back all new growth in the area where there is heavy infestation. If there is nothing for them to feed on, maybe they'll leave. I have also added a heavy layer of mulch. Surprisingly, midge really like some of the old once-bloomers like Russelliana, Leda, Felicita Parmentier, Queen of Denmark. These I have to police all summer, looking for wilted growth rather than already fried tips. I am considering transplanting them to a new bed after bare rooting them next winter/spring.

Jeri, I suspect you are right when you suggest the obvious loosers will show themselves first. I have already removed some that have been nothing less than a major headache for the last several years. I think the toughest decision is getting rid of a rose you really love. Stanwell Perpetual falls into that category, but he is a real midge magnet. I don't know yet what his disease resistance is for me.

For disease and for plant and soil health, I've been brewing AACT and spraying, somewhat infrequently (every 3 weeks). I'll continue this practice because I think my area needs the mycrohyzial and other little gems. I will say this, I have never seen such large blooms or prolific blooming since I've been growing roses. This only on organic fertilizer and compost tea.

I guess the virtue is patience.

Thanks for your help.

Barbara

Gallicas and Albas are all mixed bag. There are plenty of them that are healthy from year one no spray and there are others that will get BS badly year after year. Examples of healthy ones: Tuscany Superb, Alba maxima, Alba Semiplena, Alice Vena, Jenny Duval, Queen of danemark, etc.
Damasks in general are more BS prone here. Only Ispahan is mostly clean for me, others will defoliate from BS or get "damask brown crud".
Stanwell and Golden Wings are hopless in my experience, they will get a lot of BS. Majority of spring blooming sinosissimas are healthy for me. Repeat and desease go hand by hand here.
Hybrid Musks are not that resistant for me here too. Some are better then others though, but all will get BS. Exception is Darlows Enigma.
English roses all will defoliate here in my experience, even the ones advertised as resistant (Mayflower, etc).
Bucks that are better in resistance are Earth Song and Quitness. They will get BS, but not too much.
There are many once blooming ramblers that are resistant and several early oriental yellows are resistant too.
Olga

Barbara -- YES. The really difficult one for me to give up was Eugene de Beauharnais.
I LOVED that rose -- but it rusted here so badly that it rusted on just-opening new leaves.
I finally admitted defeat.
We have a few roses that will rust or mildew for brief periods, in a minor way, but none
of our in-ground-established roses now show fungal problems to any meaningful degree.

In our climate and conditions, where water-needs are vital, and there is no winter cold to cause damage,
NOT pruning heavily seems to be important.
Roses not pruned much seem to need less water.

Greenhaven, yes. We use our dishwater to supplement watering.
It's surprising how much that minor effort helps.
Our next project, we think, will be to divert shower water and washer water.
We already use very "earth-friendly" detergents and soaps, as we are on a septic tank.
The dishwater seems not to trouble mature plants at all.
We don't use it much on very immature ones in containers, but I think if diluted sufficiently, it would be fine.

Even so -- We ARE culling our roses, with imminent water rationing on the horizon.
Figure -- Three HPs or Austins can be replaced by one sturdy China, leaving more water for the rest of the roses.

Jeri

Forgot to mention. Most Teas need spraying here, but Chinas are all very different. Healthier ones are Ducher, Arethusa and Mutabilis. They will get BS but will recover and grow new set of leaves, then again defoliate, grow leaves, etc. Several leaves cycles per summer, but overall look decent at least half the time.
Olga

One thing I'd like to add. In restoring a healthy eco-system on one's property I think it really helps to think how one can create a "habitat" in one's yard which will help sustain animals such as birds, bees, butterflys, lizards and the like.

By companion planting with high-value native plantings, providing sheltering places, and water sources you can really make a huge difference in making your yard a sanctuary. And reduce damaging insect infestations in the process.

The National Wildlife Federation has a very interesting program which certifies homes as "Certified Wildlife Habitats". Even if one chooses not to do the "certification" the ideas they have are very smartly put forward and a good source for inspiration positive changes.

I'm including a link.

Happy gardening!

Bill

Here is a link that might be useful: National Wildlife Federation Backyard Habitat

Olga, thank you for your list of roses. I've followed your garden for years here and already have some of them. I'm really sorry to hear about Golden Wings and Stanwell. Well, I'll just have to keep a keen eye on them to see what I can tolerate and after all the spring blooming spinosissimas are lovely, too. It is really disappointing to hear about the teas. I have 2, Lady H. and DdB. Maybe I'll have better luck. But I love the Chinas. I'll have to get more of those, if my winters will allow.

Jeri, that is interesting to hear what you are saying about pruning-less is better. Food for thought. Mostly, though mine are winter pruned.

William, thanks for the link. I was happy to see that I already have some of the shrubs and trees recommended for this state. I will bookmark that page and read more.

Your are all so very helpful. Thank you for your time and good advice.

Barbara

Bill,
Thank you for the link. I went for the certification in hopes that seeing the sign will inspire other people. It also inspired me to support an organization that I believe in.

bbinpa, good luck with your no spray garden. I'm curious, though. Why do you think the noisettes didn't work out for you? It is nice working in a space where you know it's safe for yourself--and all the critters. I'm kicking myself in the butt for not taking a picture of the cutest thing I saw today: the absolute tiniest frog I've ever seen, sitting on a leaf of William R. Smith. He couldn't have been more than 1/4 inch long. So adorable.

len511, I'm intrigued by your method of letting the grass grow right up to the roses. That's something I've considered in the past. The conventional wisdom is to keep the grass clear because it would rob the rose of nutrients. My other worry is that I don't want to nick the roses with the weed whacker. How do you keep the grass short under the roses?

Jeri, what was it about Eugene de Beauharnais that made it so hard to give up? This is a new one for me. I was skeptical about trying it here, but had to based on the descriptions of its fragrance. I ordered it from Rogue Valley and they held it for a while saying it was too small to ship. When it arrived I burst out laughing. It was so small on arrival that I wondered how small it was to begin with. It sulked, wouldn't grow, finally put on some growth, then stopped. Despite it's being so small, I decided to put it in the ground in a very "sheltered" spot where I could baby it, thinking if it had more room to grow then it would. But last week the roommate rounded the corner with the weed whacker and chopped off both of its branches. Thinking it would die anyway, I dug it up and put it back into a clay pot. To my surprise, it has leafed back out.

I couldn't resist posting a picture. I haven't pruned off the weed whacked ends because they make me laugh when I see them. And they're proof of Eugene's will to live.
{{gwi:277959}}

The roses are a problem in a NO Spray garden with the BS and thrip damage, but ants are a huge problem with me. I am going to order some more bait, and need to use that. That will be my one exception. Without using baits I am afraid they will make their way into the house.

We bought bags of mulch, they got into that. And at the edge of our property before the hill goes down to the creek, there are many ant hills. THey are in every bed, and the Terro I tried to kill them with probably just encouarges them to move on.

I hate to see so many light colored buds with brown goo. (thrips) Yet for them I am hoping for a balance in nature.

Sammy

Belle -- Wait 'til you see it bloom, and you won't ask.

The blooms are exquisite, deep, black-red Rosettes, with a rich fragrance that belies its
China classification.
Indeed, it looks like a tiny, twiggy, continuous-blooming Gallica, if you can imagine such a thing.

It will ALWAYS be a small plant.
Maybe on occasion it made 2.5 ft., but not often. And that's in CA!!!
Most Miniature Roses are much larger than Eugene.
It was the same size at J&P, growing in their greenhouses. Even there, it was a dwarf.

It can mildew -- but its big susceptibility is to RUST. And rust is a problem here.
I could control the mildew which was occasional, but the rust defeated me at last.

BUT -- if rust is not a particular problem for you, you may do fine with it.
It is exquisitely beautiful.
I think one of the reasons I like Prospero so much is that it is much the same type of bloom.
Tho on much sturdier and longer stems.
===========

Sammy -- I HATE ANTS!

Jeri

bellegallica, it's not really a method, it's just that mulch is too much expense, work, and the grass grows in the mulch anyway, and when i use the grass shears i keep hitting wood chunks. On my way to deriving a method, i just notice what happens. I had(2) 150 rolls of burlap that i cut and use with metal pins around the roses that were buried in grass so i could see them, i'll see if it works. My goal is to grow them taller than the grass! I figure the burlap will decay in a few years. Rob the rose of nutrients? Maybe if you grew them in sand without ever fertilizing!lol! Haven't these writers ever seen the real wild world where if there is a space something will grow? I've learned on my bulbs to sow bluegrass on top when i plant them so the grass and weeds don't get 4' tall while waiting for the foliage to ripen after they flower. If you pull the weeds and grass a few inches away from the main cane, you can see better to weed eat, but i usually just use sheers or hand pull.

Bellegallica,
Noisettes do not like my garden. I have tried 3 that are reported hardy to zone 6, Madame Alfred Carrière, Celene Forrester and Blush Noisette. All three died. I suspect they are super sensitive to the black walnut trees that surround my property. BN took 3 years to croak but the other two only lasted 1 season. I had Eugene de Beauharnais back then too, but he only lasted 1/2 a season. He bloomed then died. Now, I've killed more than 1 rose with my own stupidity, carelessness, or other action, but these roses were coddled, wooed, and pampered. I just came to the conclusion that Noisettes and some Chinas don't like my garden. It's better than wasting money on more and getting the same results.

Yes, Sammy, this will not be an easy task converting to no spray. But, others have gone before and I know they will all give support. If it is in the cards that no rose will succeed in my garden without fungicides or pesticides, then so be it. I'll live to garden another day and find another plant to enjoy. Mostly, I'll have more time to enjoy my garden! I have simply come to the conclusion that life is too short to insanely clothe myself in long pants, long sleeves, goggles, a respirator in the hot summer heat and humidity for the sole purpose of having pretty roses. There will always be pests and disease of some sort in the garden, but spraying, IMO, is not the answer.

And yes, Sammy, I HATE ANTS,TOO.

Happy Gardening ALL,
Barbara

hi, Barbara,
I don't have much to add to any of what's been said. I remember beautiful pictures you posted a couple of years ago of your garden, then last year's problems with midge and then later your decision to move to no spray. Then the long conversation about AACT and compost, how much is enough, etc.

I have wondered about your black walnut trees, though. I never understood how close the black walnut trees were to your roses. I've read that the roots can extend 3-4 times the distance of the drip line of the trees. I've just wondered if the roses are close enough to get weakened from the juglone from the bw trees so as to be more susceptible to insect problems.

This is my first no spray year too, and I wonder how it is all going to work out and what will survive. Gardening does teach patience, doesn't it? It takes awhile to figure out what works. Gean

Len511, I was thinking some hand shears, too. Still haven't decided, though.

Barbara, you wrote: "If it is in the cards that no rose will succeed in my garden without fungicides or pesticides, then so be it."

You WILL find roses that will work for you. Just don't give up. Look at it as an adventure, in which getting there will be half the fun--finding out what really works.

Jeri, yes. I'm still waiting for a bloom. The first one was eaten by an insect or some other critter. And the next one got whacked off with the branches. Third time's the charm?

You wrote: "with a rich fragrance that belies its
China classification." Since you brought it up, what do you think of the move to reclassify this as a Bourbon? Paul Barden says it is most unlike other Chinas he grows. Vintage has already classified it in the catalogue as the Bourbon "Le Grand Capitain." But Clair Martin at Huntington is inclined to keep the name as it is until he sees better proof that EdB is something other than EdB.

Gean, If I had a mind to, I could blame all my gardening problems on the BW trees. The roots are said to sometimes extend twice the height of the tree. I have tall trees. That means that my whole garden is probably affected by the juglone to one extent or another. However, I cannot do anything about the trees and the damage they may or may not cause. I've done all I can think to do, that is, plant as far from the trees as possible, use multiflora root stock as much as possible and plant roses with multiflora genes. The last rule I have broken from time to time just because. Some work, some do not. Are the roses stressed because of the trees, maybe, probably. But I rely on their being tough enough to over come.

Bellegallica, Thank you for your sentiment and yes, I'm always up for a challenge, competitive nature that I have. Sometimes the tasks get me down, but eventually, I come back to it. It's the goddess of the garden's siren song. One can never escape.

Besides I have the support of this network of friends here at the forum. That never fails.

Barbara

The chemistry is a mystery. Why are some plants bothered by juglone and others not? I've read that juglone has anti fungal properties. Too bad the roses don't suck up the juglone and use it to kill blackspot. Wouldn't that be great!

I admire your persistence and thoughtfulness, Barbara. Gean

Clair told me that folks in New Zealand told HIM that the rose had grown there AS Eugene de Beauharnais since the 1830's.
That being so, I can see why he would need some convincing.

From my own observations, for what THAT's worth, I'd say the growth habit is closer to China than to Bourbon.
The blooms are closer to GALLICA than anything else.

IF it is really Eugene de Beauharnais, I would be loathe to change the classification the breeder assigned to it.

If it is NOT actually EdB, well, I guess Bourbon's as good a classification as any.
Some roses just won't stay neatly in an established class.

Jeri

Barbara---I converted to no-spray many years ago---my roses are definetly survival of the fittest-----

I love to bury my nose in a fragrant rose and the chemicals are not good--plus it is just too much work to spray---

Good luck with your no-spray----and all the wonderful birds etc tha t will raise their babies in your safe garden.

Florence

Don't have much to add. FWIW, I wouldn't give up on any rose until you have amended your soil organically continuously for several years and have built an ecosystem that includes the beneficial insects, mammals, reptiles, and birds. This can take a while, but it is a fascinating, educational, and very humbling process. I started 15 years ago with an organic no-spray vegetable and flower garden to which I am now slowly adding my favorite roses.

Gean, That's interesting about the anti-fungal properties of Juglone. I was unaware of that. Learn something new....
Anyway, about 4 years ago I decided to experiment with roses and bw trees. I planted a lot of hybrid musks and multiflora hybrids around a cluster of bw trees in the back yard. (one unknown to me at the time was the mislabled Bourbon Queen). The first year they received very little fungicide but thereafter were sprayed spring until the temps got too hot in summer to tolerate spraying. Their health declined each year but none of them ever had a spot of disease. They had the symptoms of "walnut wilt". I lost one or two and moved the rest. Most of the ones I moved recovered and are thriving even though I've seen a few black spotted leaves here and there.

As to why will some plants tolerate juglone? I don't know. I can tell you this, the lists of tolerant plants is very much overrated. All those list have Japanese Maple on them. I've lost three in my garden. There are many other examples as well. Bottom line is you plant your plant and take your chances.

Barbara

At a historic site in Ventura County, rose gardens almost completely surround the area where a very old Black Walnut grows.
"El Morro" is supposedly the largest Black Walnut in CA, and it is well over a century old.
Some of the surrounding roses have been there for more than a half-Century, and a few may be as old as the tree.
Rose losses in this garden SEEM to be more the result of gopher activity than anything else.
I had no idea that the Walnut might harm these roses.

{{gwi:277960}}

Jeri

Wow, Jeri, that is some photo. I cannot explain that for sure. I do know that I watched a number of roses get successively worse over a period of about 4 years before I started to move them. Most recovered quickly in their new location, some never made it.

What kind of roses are they? What are the chances they would be grafted on multiflora root stock? Or that they have not converted to own root?

I'm surprised someone didn't cut that tree down for the wood.

Barbara

PS: You know that does not look like a black walnut tree. Are you sure it is? The leaves look way too small. Also, none of my BWs have contorted branches like that. The leaf patterns are different too.

I agree with the above, for example, if you have a Persian Yellow - throw it out immediately. It has NO RESISTANCE to BS, AND IT NEVER WILL!!! It will also infect your entire rose garden. On the other hand, I find my Fair Bianca to be wonderfully disease resistant.
You must use a heavy coat of organic mulch, like shredded Christmas trees or something all around your roses!!! Rain falls on bare soil and splashes up dirt onto the leaves, infecting them with BS spores. However, with mulch, the rain will not splash up. Also, bacteria live in the mulch, and EAT the fungal spores. You do not need to wait 3 years, put down a LOT of mulch now, and you will be rewarded. Also, this means you should NOT apply any strong chemical nitrogen fertilizer - this promotes too lush of a growth, and you will get problems with powdery mildew. If you fertilize with mulch + blood meal, your roses will be extremely disease resistant.
In order to combat aphids, you MUST have a good patch of totally overgrown and naturalized weedy area - this is an ecosystem which will give a place for predatory insects to live, hide, and flourish. I regularly find spiders on my roses THAT HAVE MODIFIED THEIR COLOR!!! - on a white rose, I find a white spider, in the bloom, waiting to eat a pest - on a pink rose I find a pink spider - this is actually true, but you need a wild patch where the spider can go back to, if there are not enough bugs on your roses to eat, and also to propagate and make more spiders, etc. I hope this helps.
Sativa.

Barbara -- Yes, I'm sure it is a black walnut.
See material below, and follow the link as well.

As to the rootstock, there is some of everything there. No, not much multiflora -- but that's hardly surprising as Multiflora doesn't do well here.
There is a lot of Ragged Robin (some of which has happily reverted) and there is a fair amount of IXL (IXLR). There is a massive R. eglantaria, which may or may not have been rootstock. And there is probably some Dr. Huey. There are a few old plants which I THINK are on their own roots, including a Mme. Plantier and one old Autumn Damask which I believe to have been one of a long row of them.
==========================

California Black Walnut Tree
Of special interest is the California Black Walnut Tree, "El Rey Nogal," the only survivor of four "Black Eagle" seedlings planted by Juventino del Valle sometime during the 1860s. The tree has been noted by Maunsell Van Rensselaer in his publication Trees of Santa Barbara as the "Camulos Black Walnut." The author noted that it might be largest California Black Walnut in the region. When it was measured for this book in 1940, its circumference was eighteen feet with a branch spread of 129 feet. Today, the trunk measures approximately twenty-five feet in circumference with a branch span of approximately half an acre.
======================

Jeri
Ventura Co., CA

Here is a link that might be useful: Rancho Camulos history

That explains it. The California black walnut is not the same species as the eastern black walnut or juglone nigra. The latter is the alleliopathic (sp?) plant with toxins that inhibit the growth of other plants. The link below will give you information about the california BW. Not the same plant at all. It may also have toxins ( I believe all nut trees are alleliopathic) but the j. nigra is known for the strength of its toxins.

I'll also post a link about the eastern black walnut.

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Juglone california

OK if it will let me do it, here is the link about the eastern black walnut tree.

Barbara

Here is a link that might be useful: Walnut and its Toxicity Explored

Thank you! That explains something that has puzzled me!

Jeri