That's Neem for you, the most overhyped pesticide on the market. It does a pretty decent job on repelling Jap beetles though.

Same here re. the Neem. I started having a horrible rose slug problems last year. The organic product Captain Jacks Dead Bug Brew (Spinosad) works great IF you catch them before theres alot of damage. I think thats the key to using any product and to use it regularly. The product claims to control a myriad of other bugs but I didn't seem to notice it worked well for anything else. It might work for aphids but I don't have them right now.

Most of the neem oil products are probably no more effective than salad oil. However, any oil will kill aphids and rose slugs if sprayed thoroughly. You have to coat the bug with oil.

So is Spinosad harmful to bees? Truly, most of my bees are busy with other plants right now. I have some of that bright blue ground cover that they love..and another ground cover in front..it's also blue..has a tiny flower..blue creeper I think it's called..bees have not been on my roses at all.

Mich, I had this visual of asking the aphids to lift up their arms so I could coat them with oil. What a PITA. Well...I am over Neem..the bottle I had was from a few years ago. I won't be buying that..what I need to know is about the Spinosad?

zyperiris,

Yes, Spinosad is toxic to bees up to Appx. 3 hours after spraying. So, you would have to spray at a time when bees would NOT be expected to be on the roses for the next 3 hours.

I've included the link to Spinosad product label.
http://www.planetnatural.com/planetnatural/images/monterey-garden-insect-label.pdf

The following statement was made: "Most of the neem oil products are probably no more effective than salad oil."
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I agree, but how can one tell which Neem products are not part of this "most"?
Answer: Look at the active ingredient. The active insecticidal component of neem oil is a chemical called azadirachtin. If the label states azadirachtin (in at least a 1.5 % concentration), the product should be effective against common rose insects when applied as directed on the label. However, if the label only states: "clarified hydrophobic extract"; then the product will probably only work by smothering and you might as well be spraying salad oil.

Here is an example of a scientific study concerning the two-spotted spider mite :

Title: Uptake, translocation, persistence and fate of azadirachtin in aspen plants (Populus tremuloides Michx.) and its effect on pestiferous two-spotted spider mite (Tetranychus urticae Koch)

Authors: K. M. S. Sundaram, R. Campbell, L. Sloane and J. Studens

Authors affiliation: Forest Pest Management Institute, Canadian Forest Service, Natural Resources Canada, 1219 Queen Street East, Box 490, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada P6A 5M7

Published in: Crop Protection, Volume 14, Issue 5, August 1995, Pages 415-421

Abstract: "A commercial neem formulation containing azadirachtin-A (AZ-A) was applied to the soil around the root system of potted aspen (Populus tremuloides Michx.) plants. The uptake, translocation, persistence and dissipation of the chemical in the plants were studied. The effect of foliar residues of AZ-A on two-spotted spider mite (Tetranychus urticae Koch) populations was also evaluated. The compound was taken up by the root system within 3 h and translocated in the stem and foliage within 3 days, confirming that AZ-A is systemic. The peak concentrations (/g, fresh weight) of AZ-A occurred at 10 days post-treatment, and were distributed in roots, stem and foliage in the ratio of 8.1:1.0:2.3, respectively. The rate of dissipation of AZ-A from the matrices was moderately rapid, and the residual concentrations on the last day of sampling (50 days post-treatment) in roots, stem and foliage were in the ratio 2.7:1.0:1.2, respectively. Control of mites by AZ-A residues in foliage was statistically significant, and the bioactivity declined within 30 days. The final residue of AZ-A in the soil after 50 days was about 25% of the initial value, with a half-life of dissipation of about 26 days."
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The following link leads to a 2005 Ph.D. Thesis:

http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=979446007&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=979446007.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: link for Sundaram et.al. abstract

I think the light is finally starting to go off in my head. I stopped at the nursery and was looking at the bug and funcicide. Well, ALOT of it is Garlic oil, Clove oil, type stuff. It's 10 bucks a bottle. Like someone said..isn't olive oil just as good? Or any cheaper oil? Some of these companies are making a killing selling this stuff to an unsuspecting public. I did see the Captain Jacks Bug Killer by Bonide..but I didn't buy it. They also had quite a few types of insecidal soaps. Another 10 bucks a bottle. Can't I just use a squirt of Joy..and Olive oil?

zyperiris,

Home soaps & oils you would have to experiment with and find the right combination. Some soaps are not effective, some soaps are way to harsh for leaves.
Well worth $10 to me to buy a product that someone else has already done all that stuff for you. lol. Less headaches as far as i'm concerned.

If you want to use cheap home soaps/oils you will need to experiment or locate a good home recipe from somewhere that has been tried and proven.
Maybe start a thread on the subject?

Okay..I will try the Safers..if you have been there done that..then I see no need to do the same thing

zyperiris,

If you use Safers Insecticidal Soap according to the directions, it is very effective on rose slugs.
Treating them when they are young is best and most effective. Even though it worked well on older fat juicy ones last season also.