Kristin,
The first nursery I can think of in your part of the world that sells 'bigger' roses as an option is Rogue Valley Roses. Contact Janet there and ask for help.
Limberlost Roses (now in South Carolina) also used to sell large plants in California. Bob and Kathy Edburg there could possibly be of help, but California prices might be hard to translate to Washington state.
Finally, Vintage Gardens is selling some of their spare mother plants (and I'd guess they are big). Just the shipping charges would send the roofers in a tailspin.

I would put down $500 or more, and if they think that is too much then make them get an estimate from a local nursery, to replace,plant, amend, whatever necessary to restore your garden to it's original condition. That is fair. But i would say they or their insurance will just try to settle it with you.

Make that replace, plant, mulch whatever - but not amend.

Thank you for such encouraging replies. Would you believe I feel a little guilty about claiming this compensation? A voice in the back of my head keeps telling me "Come on, how is your little garden worth this? It's not like you spent a lot of money on it in the first place." But the fact is, exactly because I didn't have much money to spend on it, I poured my sweat into it.

A lot of the damaged plants were newly installed -- this year I was re-working the bed they ended up piling almost 3 feet of roof rubble on. So on top of crushing plants they raked out or shredded numerous things during 'cleanup'. The one that made my blood boil was the salvia they raked out, then tossed back into another part of the bed where I found it later that day. And that's not even counting the plants they broke walking around in the bed before they started the demo, including an iris I haven't seen bloom for three years for one reason and another, which finally had bloom stalks this year.

I don't have to allow their choice of garden/yard service to actually do the replacement work, though, do I? I would be within my rights asking for the money and then fixing the damages myself?

Kristin

Kirstin, the person to talk with would be the owner of the place, and arrange for him to come out and look at it and tell him the same things you have told us. I don't think the man will want to have to mess with the whole situation, and your possible later unhappiness with a nursery he chose. He will rather be more interested in what it's going to cost him to make things right, the bottom line so to speak so he can pay you and move on.

Are your plants totally dead or just damaged? If they are not dead, which mine were not when I had to have to roofs put on in the same year they will come back as well or better than ever.

Claims like this that cause roofing costs and homeowner insurance to go through the ceiling.

No, I don't own a roofing or an insurance company, but just a consumer who believes that there is no way to reroof a house when plants are up against it without some damage, but if those plants were growing and surviving well in the first place, they will return.

Plants don't always return after being abused, tromped on, and raked to death. Especially if they were newly planted this year and haven't had a chance to establish themselves.

The owner of the company definitely needs to visit and see what his workers' did so he knows how to correct their actions in the future. I had windows and siding both installed during the summer and never had damage like Kristin described. I also explained to the foreman of the job that I understood they would need to walk on some plants to install the siding since I have landscaping all around the house, but they were very careful and damage was kept to a minimum.

You pay good money for an expensive roofing job and if the workers damage your property, then they should pay for those damages.

I can tell you that a garden center takes the price of the plant and multiplies that by 3 if they are to install it. That is just digging and plopping. So if you paid 25.00 for a rose and it needs to be replaced that comes to 75.00. However, you might want to reseve this just for plants that actually need replacing.

When our house was reroofed nearly ten years ago, the guys tried to be careful but we did end up with one shrub ruined permanently because the top was broken out of it. We had debris and other damage, but nearly everything was minor. It sounds like your workers didn't even try. I think that the company needs to be held responsible, so that they do better at future job sites.

Did you take photos? That goes a long way toward proving your point. If I'm smart enough in the future, I'll take before and after pictures whenever I have a big project.

I think you should be compensated, but not exaggerate your claim, either. I wouldn't want anybody coming in to "restore" things because no landscaping firm would do things as you'd like them done. You are definitely within your rights to ask for money for the plants, and to do the work yourself. I would ask for the costs of plants and materials, and get an estimate for the value of a full-sized rose. It might be that a landscaper could tell you what the cost of purchasing and planting a 15-gallon rose would be, and you could use that. Not only are mature plants costly, digging the holes and planting them is a serious endeavor.

Your garden will recover, but it's a shame that it happened before you got to enjoy this year's bloom. Too bad there's not a "pain and suffering" provision for gardeners!
Anita

I had a new foam roof installed recently and not one of my plants were damaged. The roofers took very good care of how they worked around the house. I also had the house painted recently where the walls were first washed and then several coats of paint applied. The painters put stakes around my garden beds and then covered the beds with tarp. If these workers could take that much care in what they did, it seems to me your roofers could have done the same. Don't forget, water, amendments and fertilizers cost money as well as your time and the plant materials. You cannot get back the lost time. Make them pay! Besides, it sounds like these work people were extremely careless and this should not go unremarked by the roofing company's owner. Your recommendation or lack there of should mean a lot to a small business owner. Good luck!

I'd be heartsick if I were you, can only imagine how you must feel. When I have work done, I try to anticipate some of it and try to protect the most vulnerable things, sounds like you had a lot going there, but I think they were grossly negligent and inconsiderate. Just because claims drive ins costs up for the rest of us doesn't mean you are not entitled to just compensation, although it would be hard to calculate. I don't think you should feel guilty about it. See what the insurance adjustor offers and go from there. Some of it you will probably have to suck up. Unless the rose is totally ruined, I would rather wait and see if it recover than replace in kind because that involves an inherent risk and hassle, too.

I guess I'd follow the recommendations as to getting estimates, and probably try to settle for somewhere in between more on the higher end, if possible.

Some will recover, yes, but these workers need to learn to be more responsible. They lied to you is the bottom line. One wonders about he quality of the roofing job if they cared so little about respecting your plants and rights.

Good luck with that. Insurance companies S***. All they really want is MONEY in their hands not yours.

Carla

Since 'Climbing Cecile Brunner' is a locally common favorite if your plant had been lost there would have been the possibility of starting a replacement from cuttings instead of buying one. This is a way you could also acquire additional kinds of roses (and other shrubs) without spending more than the cost of gathering, sheltering and rooting the new plants. Roses can often be propagated from hardwood sticks taken from current season's ripened (mature) growth and inserted deeply into loose soil during October.

Bob from Limberlost Roses says he thinks that the replacement for a rose the size and vigor of mine would be in the neighborhood of $100 to $125. He used to sell 3-year-old plants in 15-gallon pots for $60, 10 years ago.

I do have to consider that I don't actually want to remove and replace this rose. Someone mentioned that this would involve its own risks and they're right. I do want to be compensated for the damage, though, and I'm leaning towards thinking that I would be in the right to ask that they pay what it would cost to replace it -- the only way that it would be possible to put things back the way they were before they came in and broke things, as len511 says, would be to replace the substantially damaged plants with plants of the same size and maturity.

I don't want to bill for every torn leaf, no. But if the plant is flopped over and pathetic looking like my daylilies, broken up like my bergenia and irises or raked to shreds like my aubretia, yup, I think the replacement price is fair. I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if appliance delivery guys left a skid mark on my linoleum or scratched a wall slightly -- if they were demonstrating a minimum of care -- but if they knocked down a vase and chipped it or tore a chunk out of the wallpaper, that's different.

So my plan right now is to investigate what it would cost to replace the plants that are significantly impaired or gone completely, plus soil amendments for planting them, plus a small consideration for my time and energy (not the same hourly wages as a professional landscaper would charge) and ask for that.

And there's no getting around the complete and total disregard these guys had for my yard. One of my friends said "This can't be the first time these guys have ever roofed a house with flower beds!" and I think she hit it right on the head.

Yes, I got photos. This is just one.

{{gwi:273052}}

That's a flower bed under that, folks. I wish I had before photos but my garden was toured about 3 weeks ago by the property owner, the property management rep *and* their mow-and-blow guy, so they all personally saw what it looked like before.

I'm also requesting my property management company find someone else to complete the job. I don't know if this is going to be feasible, but there's still demo to be done on this roof! I do NOT want these chumps handling any more debris around my garden. They've done enough. I would rather not have them back in my yard again at all.

Kristin

Kristen, nine years ago Sears did the roof on my house here in Tacoma. They showed me video of how careful they were to protect things. When I got home on the first day of reroofing I saw a pile of shingles and shake two feet tall. When I went to work there was a a Las Vegas four feet tall at the location. All of the canes were broken and layed flat under the debris. I got $35.00 for the rose and planted Bouquet d'Or in the spot and it has been there ever since. Bouquet d'Or is a tea-noisette from the late 1880's. If the canes are not broken at ground level it should make a miraculous recovery by late July.

Lance

Well, len511 was right on the nose.

I spent the afternoon calling around for estimates and labor to replant just the plants that are completely gone or dead, plus re-mulching, would be between $400 and $500.

The cost of replacing the plants comes to approximately $250. If I go with half the professional labor estimates for my time, gas, soil amendments and water, that's another 200-250. $500 seems eminently fair to me and I believe it's what I'll claim.

Kristin

Kristen - why didn't the guys bring in a dumpster to throw the shingles in instead of the ground? That's what I've seen them do on job sites in my neighborhood. I wouldn't let these guys near my house again.
-terry

Leave out soil amendments, buy mulch instead. Amending of small planting holes is not beneficial.

Good point bboy. The whole bed is heavily amended, but I do usually throw an extra handful of compost in the planting holes, and top dress with another couple handfuls afterward.

Terryjean, they did have a dumpster. They put it in the driveway, adjacent to the backyard. After they raked up the debris that is where it went.

Kristin

Normally I'd agree with Patricia on this, but seeing that photo, and the fact that they promised to be careful and all, it shows they were completely uninterested in being professional in their work at all. We've had lots of reroofing done around here, and they did not damage anything at all. Heck, the guy that fills our propane tanks does more damage dragging his hose through the beds (even though there are obvious, and lined, pathways for his hose to go down) than the roofers did.

I can only see doing a debris job like that on an abandoned house, not one that's inhabited.

--Ron

That is shocking, can hardly believe it. It occurred to me that your prop manager hired the cheapest he could get, and they may not be licensed, bonded and insured, if hired by a reputable roofing company, they probably will. It also looks like the property itself may have incurred some damage by that recklessness.

I don't know if your prop mgr has ins or how that would work, so you may have to be prepared to take them to small claims court. It's a good thing you have that photo, and the others.

I certainly wish you the best and am so sorry you have to put up with it. Roofing is a nightmare, I got a guy on the cheap, and it still cost plenty, but I didn't have any nice plants to worry about then plus it looks like they were going to lay new plywood which I didn't have to do on mine. Twice I've had it done now, and they do throw the stuff on the ground, then haul to the dumpster, but still.

You will be finding roofing nails in your yard no doubt, too, and I don't know about your lawn mower. That could pose a danger, just thought I'd mention it.

My husband was able to talk to the property manager today and sent the photos as well as my description of what was damaged and how it all went down.

He says he can't fire this crew without penalties for breaking the contract; apparently "gross negligence" is a specific legal term that in this case means damages worth more than $3K. However, he says they're done doing demo, so I was wrong about that, and I would imagine they'd have to work a lot harder at destroying things without massive amounts of debris to throw around. And you better believe I'll have an eagle eye on them.

Oh god, I hope they're insured. I took for granted that they would be. They are some kind of outfit that has day jobs during the week and they come out on Saturdays to work on the house, although at least two of the guys are journeyman roofers, so at least they're not random goobs off the street. I wold expect the property management co would only hire a bonded & insured company, hope I'm right. I'll take them to small claims if I have to though. NOBODY f***s with my plants.

Kristin

We had our roof replaced a couple of years ago by a reputable, local roofer whose granddaughter was in my Girl Scout troop. He had a crew of Polish guys (lower pay & I did not ask about their status!) who were quite competent as long as he was standing around. Things got iffy when he wasn't there. We own our house.

When he came to write up the estimate, we walked around the yard with the roofer & he told us where tarps, ladders, etc would have to be placed. I dug up & moved things that I knew would be wrecked if I left them there, and I cut back or tied up & fastened or pressed to the house, things that could not be moved.

They did pretty well--yes there were some plants that suffered some, not as badly as what happened to you--watching them like a hawk helps---the thing you will have to look out for is the little bits of shingle & nails that will keep popping up in the ground for a year or two. Even the most conscientious crew can't find all the tiny bits that are the same color as the soil, or hide in the grass.

We got in the habit for a year, of walking around the yard before mowing to check for nails that kept appearing in the lawn.

When I was a child, my parents had a slate roof removed & decking & asphalt shingles installed. For years & years we kids kept finding little pieces of slate around the house (and nails). We played at being Indians & chipped them into "arrowheads."

I have learned that work crews are much more careful with our yard, etc when I put out plates of brownies, juice or hot coffee & cups, ice water & so on. I set them on a table on the porch. I know one should not have to do such things to get careful treatment of the property, but my grandmother used to say, "You catch more flies with honey."

I thought of one more thing which may or may not be relevant. For dangerous tree work, I have to have licensed/bond/ins, but I know the roofers I had were just working for themselves. I would have had to hold them personally liable. They weren't undocumented but the painter last year was, son hired him, nice guy, had a helper, tried to treat them nice. I was a little scared that I or my son would get into trouble for that. I had to scrape several basement windows I wasn't expecting . . .but this is not about me, and we saved a lot. Don't mind paying a fair price, but one guy down the street wanted $8,000 to paint, unreal.

The crux of the matter, where I live, for work like that you are always supposed to get a permit from the city, patching probably not, so you might want to check into that. It cost about $40+ extra, it's orange and you are supposed to tack it prominently on your house. I wanted to play it safe, but I know a lot don't bother to get one and get away with it, some get the permit but don't display it. Supposedly.

So you can check what your city requires, if one was bought even though not displayed, which may give you more leverage if you have to take them to court - which I don't envy you, glad you have the will to fight on and wish you well. Glad you have a hubby to help bear some of the stress of it.

Your property manager was partly culpable, too, imo. Good advice from the other posters.

If it was an accident, I'd let it go, but it appears they were very careless. They could have tossed the shingles away from the house. I had my house painted last year, and while I took precautions in tying up my roses that were near the house and cut back azaleas and shrubs that were near the house, the painters were very good. Perhaps because I was out there watching.

I'd ask for at least replacement value to get new roses. You can never replace a grown climber.

They sprayed my house. This guy had a very large aluminum rectangular shield that he tucked in at ground level and gently pushed the plants back. Got a little paint on my Harison, my fav, and my redbud seedlings (they would have died anyway), and Harison bounced back fine this year.

And I agree they should have tossed the stuff further from the house, ESPECIALLY that heavy plywood layer. When they did mine, it is a tough job removing shingles, and they used a scraper-type tool to pry away the nails and dislodge them from the roof and just push them over the edge.

A few stray shingles, minimal damage, if any, but not what they did at your place.

You were promised something that they clearly had no intention of delivering: the safety of your plants. This falls under negligence, IMO. I think its fair to ping them $100 bucks or so, which is a token fee to send them a message that their actions were inconsiderate, careless and a failure to stand behind a verbal contract. Don't bother feeling guilty about this, I'm sure they don't.

Were they promised a sound structure to work on? If one fell through the roof would they not be mad and expect compensation. Don't feel guilty over the negligence of others. Ask for an amount that makes you feel good, not cheated or guilty.
-B

I would get an estimate from a place or two on what it would cost for you to have your garden restored back to its original condition. Whether you hire it done or do it yourself is a moot point. Our own personal labor is worth every bit as much as someone else's.

The roofing company is responsible for any damages caused by them on your property, end of story. Since when should we be afraid to ask for compensation when our property is damaged, out of fear of resulting rising costs?! That is not something you should feel guilty about. It also matters not if the damage is accidental or negligent. Damage is damage. Period.

I would also report them to the Better Business Bureau if they do not take care of you.

Sandy

I'm going to ask to settle at $600. This is approximately two-thirds the total estimate I have for replacing the plants plus labor to replant and remulch. I'm SO GLAD I posted here, because I would never have looked into some of these estimates otherwise and I would have asked for much much less.

If they don't cooperate, I'm taking them to small claims court. I have piles of evidence, it should be open and shut. And if they make me take them to court I'm taking them for every cent of the estimates including the full value of the rose and cost of shipping.

I'm giving them 14 days to respond, so I'll be able to update soon.

Thanks,

Kristin

Hell Hath No Fury Like A Rosarian Scorned.

Oops, I cut and pasted to save time, and it was from another site where I've been discussing small claims court surrounding the issue. I didn't edit appropriately and that's where the "Adjuster Jack" reference is from, feel free to ignore my blunder. Just an indicator of how stressed I am right now.

Kristin

You've probably paid them in full already for the work, but if you haven't, I would with-hold the portion of money that you feel you have coming to you.

Sandy

I don't think she or her husband hired the roofers because she said in her original post that they are renting the house. It sounds like the property manager hired the roofers and would be the one to pay them, but I could be mistaken.

Yup, the property management hired them; I have no idea whether they've been paid or not yet but I would expect so.

Jeez, I just skimmed through the thread and saw that because I used asterisks to simulate a swear word, Garden Web removed the first post I made today. Eyeroll. So my above correction doesn't even make any sense now.

To reiterate it:

Today the owner of the roofing company came into my yard without announcing himself. I only knew he was there because my wonderful watchdog barked. He had a camera and I assume took photos but I don't know for sure of what. He also had another person with him.

I went out as he was getting in his truck to leave and he introduced himself and the professional gardener he had brought with him. He said he has never seen anything like my letter and there was no way I was getting $700 out of him (which was the number I finally went with, significantly less than the total sum for damages and repair).

He said I could take him to court, but he would only countersue for his lost wages, which would be substantial. He could see I had "a bit of a garden," though, and was willing to "chip in a few dollars for some plants".

I explained that he couldn't see much of the damage because it involved plants that weren't there anymore, that was kind of the whole point, and that I had estimates for replanting and remulching and it costs a lot. He essentially said I was lying, that there was no way there was enough damaged to total $700, and tried to intimidate me by adding that he was contacting the property management and owner (which I already did, of course) and that the woman with him was a professional gardener.

He says his guys had legal access to do the work and had to do it around messes like dog poop (yeah, I miss a pile once in a while, I admit it) and there was just no way to avoid some damage with the kind of work that had to be done. I say this is bull poop (ahem: happy, GW magic eye?), most of the damage was done during cleanup and if it had been the garden of one of the guys up there on the roof, they would have made sure to find a way to protect it. I've since called 4 local roof companies and asked them and 4 out of 4 have answered that no, there would not be big piles of shingles and debris on the flowerbeds if they did the work.

As a rule if someone is trying to intimidate me I assume there's something I CAN do that they don't want me to do. But I'm deathly scared of a countersuit, because there's no way I could pay it if he did win.

In retrospect, the minute I found out who he was and that he had simply walked into my fenced backyard I should have called the cops.

I am really angry now -- I HATE being manipulated -- but I have to find out what the likelihood of his countersuit being successful is before I can go ahead like I want to and sue his sleazy brains out.

Kristin

Unless he got permission from the property owner ahead of time, he shouldn't have been taking photos on the property. From the sidewalk or public access it would be legal.

You might want to take it up with your property manager, but I don't know whose side he would be on. He probably just doesn't want to deal with it.

What would they countersue you for? You have your photos for proof. He is trying to intimidate you for sure, but I can certainly understand where you are coming from fearing a countersuit. You never know what kind of a judge you will get.

I only have limited legal training, but you might want to pursue that angle, cover all your bases. To my way of thinking, if he obtained those photos illegally, they shouldn't be allowed as evidence whereas yours would.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe it's possible to countersue for lost wages to respond to a small claims suit. If you do sue, make sure to get some kind of affidavit from those other roofing companies stating what you just said here. Also, make sure you can totally justify that $700 or whatever you sue for. Generally if you have to take someone to small claims court you can add damages for having to take them to court as well, up to the small claims limit.

--Ron

That roofing guy is an absolute jerk, and I wouldn't let him intimidate you like that. Go ahead and file a suit with small claims court for your damages. That is what small claims court is for. I'm not an attorney, but I fail to see where he would get anywhere with a countersuit. He is the one that did the damage, you have pictures, and I would find it hard to believe a judge would take his side when you are the one who had the damages.

Have you checked with the county code people or the Better Business Bureau about this company? You may find that there have been other complaints, which would strengthen your case. With this guy's attitude, there has to have been issues before.

I would not only take him to court, but I would also contact the county as well as the Better Business Bureau and file complaints there also. The county is a good place to start, as there are not only codes to follow, but he has to obtain (and keep) a business license with them.

Sandy

It's so discouraging to run into a real rat, there being so many others out there doing good. I'd file for the full amount of the estimate, which is what you're entitled to, imho. You can always compromise in court. I went with a friend to small claims court in NYC a few years ago. The two parties agreed to "arbitration," which means they assign the case to a lawyer who hears both sides and decides. The whole thing, from arriving in court to being assigned to a decision, took a couple of hours or so. That seems to be how most cases are handled there. In small towns it may be all by a judge.

BTW, the date on your photo might be confusing to someone. (Clearly it wasn't taken at 1 am. :)

Bring in your own expert to back your findings. Find a landscaping company (or 3) that will give you a professional bid on doing the replacement/repair work. That's what you'd take to small claims court to win. Due diligence.

Best of luck with this, Kristin.

Sue

Bring in your own expert to back your findings. Find a landscaping company (or 3) that will give you a professional bid on doing the replacement/repair work. That's what you'd take to small claims court to win. Due diligence.

Best of luck with this, Kristin.

Sue

When this place was reroofed about five years ago, the roofers did an exemplary job. Not one plant damaged, not one scrap of roofing left behind. They backed up a dumpster to the bed in front of the house and carried everthing down the ladder to put in the dumpster.
However, when the house got new siding in 2006, I totally lost six roses that were broken and trampled into the ground. The only good thing I could say about that job was that they did spare my climbing hydrangea which had taken 15 years to get up to the roof line. They took it down, laid it flat and then put it back up again after they finished.
And no, I didn't get reimbursed for the roses I lost. I don't own this place, technically don't own the garden and my family, who do own it, weren't interested in replacing roses. In fact, when I replanted one, they managed to trample on it in the course of washing windows and killed it. Well, those are the breaks.
OTOH, when the oil company spilled oil on one bed and dug it out entirely before I even knew what had happened, they did pay to replace the top soil and also paid to replace the roses. They were going to buy me new roses but changed their mind when I sent them a list of the antiques I lost.

Some businesses have a deductable on their liability insurance and they are reluctant to turn it in to their carrier. It is hard to get money out of them unless you sue them or have a clear cut issue such as not adding oil when they change your oil.

Also their loss ratio affects their premiums.

On a auto or homeowner policy if you do not report a loss it can and will void your policy.

Pay an attorney to write a love letter to the business and see if anything pops, otherwise it dosen't cost that much to file a suit in small claims court and you do not need an attorney.

Not sure it is worth the angst. That is what the contractor is counting on. Have fun!

F.L.
IAGL

Girlndocs-was just wondering how this has played out?
Please update us-or are you busy planting your new stuff?!?
-B