Esther_opal,

Let me just say that the title of this thread is maybe the most amusing I've read anywhere.

rangier

By definition in every dictionary I have seen "topsoil" is defined as the top 4 inches of soil. That is what it is.
Now I know many people think they know what "topsoil" is but what it is and what they think it is are two very different things and most evey one I talk with thinks that when they buy "topsoil" they are getting loam, which is not true.
Numbers of times I have asked people here to define "topsoil" and either they cannot, or will not, and then they keep on telling novices to go get some "topsoil" like is was something great and wonderous. Most "topsoil" I have seen is garbage, and most of the landscape people around here have stopped selling "topsoil" although the garden centers have bags of stuff so labeled and much of that is garbage.
So what is "topsoil"?

kimmsr, you couldn't be more right. Quick story - a few years back I decided to install a nice raised bed veggie garden and of course needed something to fill it with. Found a local from the sticks and asked for garden soil or loam. Explained what I was gonna do with the stuff. Next day he shows up with enough material to fill the 8' x 16' plot to a depth of 12". He wouldn't drop it 'till I paid him (typical yankee). Out came my $100 and down went the soil. It looked like thoroughly composted cow manure and smelled like dirt. Well I planted four tomato plants at one end and when they had fruit I would have to crawl on my belly to get to the middle for picking. They turned out HUGE. Got plenty of beets, peppers, squash, etc. from the same plot. Not THAT'S the kind of topsoil everyone thinks they're buying in a bag. NOT. Topsoil might not even be soil in the proper sense. Around here it could be mostly sand and gravel with a little black dyed bark mulch to make it look like soil. Buyer beware.

jbann23

"typical yankee"

I didn't know that professional ball players spent their weekends selling crappy import soil.

Ha ha! I'm just kidding. Ya see, I was using humor to deflect attention from the fact that you spew unwarranted and hurtful prejudices towards large groups of people, most of whom I'd wager you've never met.

That's me. Always helpin'.

Interesting thread! I've wondered what "topsoil" was, but thought I was just ignorant. When I lived in San Francisco, the houses in my area were built on sand dunes--so people carted in real "dirt" to plant in. So I wondered if that qualified as topsoil. Now that I am in the central valley of California, you can dig and dig--and the composition of the soil doesn't change much, though it may get more compacted. So I guess I always thought "topsoil" was more of an Eastern thing!

Folks seem to like to use the word"topsoil" when they mean "loam" or "garden soil"

Definition of topsoil in Texas:
Texas coast = sand
Texas Hill Country = Limestone gravel
Texas Panhandle = 10 feet of caprock
Texas Woodlands = pure peat

Top Soil in Florida = sugar sand

Of course kimmsr is right, he got it from the dictionary and as it works out that is exactly what it is.

Now can you buy it? Not likely!

I wonder if you did in fact buy 4" scraped off of a piece of ground if it would be worth having. I think of top soil as a living organism with all of the organisms living in a symbiotic relationship growing something very well. When you scrape it off and pile it up this organism dies and no longer acts like it did in the field. I know it may still technically be topsoil but it wonÂt act like it did in that field.

So I think it is impossible to buy "topsoil".

Now if you engage Kimmsr and others about what you want to accomplish then many here can help you accomplish that, veg garden, trees, and perennials, etc.

If you have a soil that doesnÂt have some serious problem, the basic ground you sit on, and place compost on top that doesnÂt have a problem then it will become finally "topsoil". Will the circle be unbroken?

"Serious problem"; ph of 5 or 8 3ft deep down or some other basic problem that canÂt be fixed then it is fairly easy.

Next "topsoil" in a bag, it doesnÂt exist or is so rare as to be a miracle to find anywhere in the country. The bag on the Miracle Gro ads referred to as regular topsoil is what mostly comes from some compost facility and the Miracle Gro Garden Soil is the same thing with fertilizer added. Not bad but nothing special and it ainÂt the top 4" inches of a living soil or if you like it isnÂt. If you buy the cheapest bagged topsoil on the market and add whatever fertilizer you think you need then you have Miracle Gro Garden Soil.

I have seen spent foundry sand sold as "topsoil" (hey, its black). I have seen a mixture of "stuff" that did include sand, silt, clay, baby diapers, cigarette butts, and other garbage sold as "topsoil". While they no longer sell this as "topsoil" there is a company that sells state tested soil, some sand mixed with the dredgings from the bottom of a lake with enough lime added to bring the pH up to 7.0 and that is what the state tests for, nothing else.
Lets, then, get away from using the term "topsoil" to refer to good, garden soil.

In VA, there are no regulations regarding topsoil. We have to buy it by the dump truck load for our business (septic system installation) and it varies so much you would think it came from different planets. We've finally found one company that consistantly sells something that is at least acceptable for our purpose but I would never want it put into my garden and would have to think twice about using it in my yard to level up holes or some other reason. There is almost no organic matter in it and when it dries out it cracks like nasty clay.

This is just another case of "let the buyer beware." An uneducated buyer is just a sucker ready to part with hard earned money for junk. If you want loam, then be sure that's what you're getting. And expect to pay a premium price for it. Or be willing to put a lot of time and effort into building your own.

Our native soil here is pretty much alkaline clay. I needed a little "dirt" to fill a few holes around the yard. I asked my husband to buy a bag, one would be plenty. Of course he bought several.

Before I saw it he had topped off several areas with several inches of the stuff. The bags are labeled "topsoil" and consists of mostly very large size course sand. This must have been scraped off of a beach on the east coast. I guess I'll have to mix that with compost now.

Karen

fun discusion, folks. Here in central Texas you can buy dump truck loads of "sandy loam." Sounds great, right? What you get is a pile of nasty light brown chunks of clay surrounded by crappy light brown "sandy soil." Never have I seen, smelled, or touched any loam in this mess. After a good rain and a few days of sun you end up with a great concrete substitute. I used to take care of some soccer fields here, and had a tough time getting even common bermuda to grow in the stuff. Learned the hard way to check out carefully what you're buying before they dump an expensive load of junk for you ....

good gardening to you!

Topsoil:
noun, the (cultivatable) surface layer of the "soil" (The earth or ground; the face or surface of the earth.), as distinct from the subsoil

This will obviously vary by location and is a very generic term like the word "food" is a generic term. What is considered food in one part of the world is not considered food in another but it doesn't take away from the fact that it's all food whether it's good or bad for you or tastes good or not.

der-spankenschnitzel, you're right. Major league players don't sell soil. As far as local yankees being typical, well, they are. Ya gotta understand them or they're a bit difficult to deal with. They're incredibly honest and expect you to be so. Generous to a fault if they trust you. That soil I bought was the best I've ever seen and I thought "what a deal". Very glad he was typical, honest, generous and distrustful. You can only shaft a yankee once and only once. If I called him a typical yankee to his face he would have swelled up with pride. He knew that if he dropped the soil that there was no way to pick it back up if I reneged on the deal. I understood, being a yankee myself, and wasn't offended. And yes, I have the privilege to know a lot of 'em. Anyway, agreeing again with kimmsr, top soil isn't what you want, it's garden soil or loam. Pronounced loom around here - don't know why.

The Yankees think you can buy a pennant, think you can buy topsoil, blah blah blah. I spent the weekend in NYC- there more Red Sox hats than yankees hats- fairweather fans- blah! :)

Violet is right, top soil is what is above the subsoil. There can be none or a lot, and it can be any texture. What is sold as 'top soil' generally isnÂt. It amuses me when I read the ingredients on a bag of 'top soil' and there isn't even any soil in it. As a general rule, the darker soil where most of the roots are in a natural setting is the top soil.

All this takes me back to my point which is the one kimmsr makes over and over and I've seen him attacked over and over for trying to teach simple soil knowledge.

Listen to kimmsr and you won't go far wrong.

Don't talk about top soil here says me and the sooner you get someone off the subject the sooner they get on the path leading to the knowledge needed to GROW something.

I can further tell you this if you buy "compost" from a community compost facility and apply it to the surface of whatever subsoil you sit on you are on the way to a good growing situation. I feel that we want an answer TODAY and a growing soil is not a one-year job. This is called sheet composting and the soil organisms will convert almost any organic matter finally into what could fairly be called topsoil. Again my experience is it takes 3 years, why do think every knows the adage "the first year it sleeps, the second year it creeps, the third year it leaps", that is how long it takes to get the process going.

I got home from work one day to be told by DH, with great pride I should add, that he had ordered a truckload of "topsoil". Oy vey. It was to be delivered on a Saturday, which was good because I would be home and could see it before it got dumped. Nope, driver showed up on Friday afternoon while I was at work. Come to find out it is riverbottom dredgings. Nowhere in the dictionary can I find anything about riverbottoms being "topsoil"!! "But ... but he [truck driver] said it grows great corn." So DH spread it out over the garden. There it is, drying and cracking and I doubt any seed can get through it. D'ya think he'll maybe LISTEN to me next year?!?

Actaully river bottom dredgings can be good garden soil. Its sediment that at one time probably was topsoil, but eroded away and ended up in the river. It might be a little too silty or a little too sandy depending upon where you live, but I think it can make good soil... do a jar test on it and see what it says...

oh the dreaded jar test....Again?

Start adding organic matter to the river bottom soil, and you'll be one your way to good soil.

Esther opal, I agree with everything you've said except:

"If you buy the cheapest bagged topsoil on the market and add whatever fertilizer you think you need then you have Miracle Gro Garden Soil."

Now I'm by no means saying that Miracle Gro is a miracle product...but if I buy a bag of, say, miracle gro potting soil, i'm getting good potting soil. But I made the mistake of picking up a bag of generic potting soil, and it was crap. dried like black/brown clay. I buy generic for myself...but when it comes to most plant products, I'm very particular about brands. I drive to Jemison (about 40 miles from me) because they carry the potting soil I like in bales. My friends think there's something wrong with me...but I know y'all will understand!

Well this post really has me thinking because I've filled in 3 major areas with dirt that I've purchased at local retailers (Home Depot, Biggs, Lowes, ect.). IÂve been doing a blend of 3 items: 1 bag TOPSOIL, 1/2 bag of manure or humus and 1/3 bag of black satin mulch. The color is that beautiful black color but my plants have always done just ok, so now after reading this post I'm wondering how good this stuff is. I've noticed while planting this spring that I have very little worm activity and the only thing that IÂm finding are grubs, so is this stuff worth anything or do I just have a lack of worms because IÂve never added any to these areas? Most of the areas that IÂve added the soil to have been 3 to 4 feet high, so how are worms going to get to these areas unless I add them to it. Is my soil all right and I just need to add worms to it or did I just spend a lot of $$ for nothing?

Thanks,
Strouper

they definitely sell topsoil around here...by the bag or by the truckload...it sure looks pretty but it's definitely garbage.

don't throw things at me though...because i just used some in my mom's yard. her soil was too rich for the type of garden she wanted...xeric. she had added so much compost over the years..i just knew the heads of all of her echinacea would be flopping over in no time! so...i had to basically cut the quality of her soil a bit. sad..huh? i added only 6 cubic feet...i'm not sure if it will make a difference or not..but i wasn't going to add compost!

when i put in my raised beds, i ordered something called planter's mix. i think it was a 70% topsoil 30% compost mix...and i STILL had to add TONS and TONS of compost and manure to get that soil fertile enough to grow good plants. the soil was horribly hydrophobic too!

anyway..in horticulture class..my professor warned everyone against "topsoil." he said it has no organic matter and will not support plants on it's own.

in my soil class...we learned that silt makes great soil! so edie...just start adding compost and you'll be happy with your soil in no time!

Many, many years ago living near a river that flooded annually was a good thing because you got some good soil to cover the soil uoy worked to death the year before. Today that migh not be a good thing to use what is one the river bottom. Think of the Ohio river downstream from Cleveland a few years ago when the river burned and what would still be in the river bed. Many places still have that very polluted bed because after the initial rush to clean it all up we have found that it is expensive and there are not enough places to put those dredgings. 50 to 150 years ago people thought nothing of dumping all kinds of garbage in our waterways, "that will clean itself up" mentality, but all that happend was the pollution was moved somewhere else or the water covered it with silt, eroded soil from someplace else. And we still have people today with that same mentality.

Well, the good news is that I have been offered all the chicken manure COMPOST that I care to shovel (the lady said,"complete with worms" LOL.) So maybe even though I think this year isn't going to be so great, by adding this to the top now by next year we should have a pretty decent garden. I can't mix it in because DH has already sown all the seeds. Thank you all for the encouraging words!

Now I'm by no means saying that Miracle Gro is a miracle product...but if I buy a bag of, say, miracle gro potting soil, i'm getting good potting soil."
Rayana

We were talking about "topsoil" bulk and in bags.
Miracle Gro makes a very good potting soil they call premium or something like that, it has coir in it. Buying the bales of professional soils like pro-mix etc are the most economical and best.

"IÂve been doing a blend of 3 items: 1 bag TOPSOIL, 1/2 bag of manure or humus and 1/3 bag of black satin mulch."
Strouper

Sounds like you are in So Ohio and Black Satin is a product that PayGro used to make which is hardwood bark well aged or composted to become dark. If that is what you are getting it is all you need. If it is one of the dyed wood products then it is ok but not worth the cost for your soil. The dyed products are only for show.

"and manure to get that soil fertile enough to grow good plants. the soil was horribly hydrophobic too!"
Andria

Define hydrophobic please and how you measured for this condition?

Hydrophobic in this sense means that it sheds water/doesn't wet. (It means something slightly different to chemists).

Picture peat fresh out of a bale.

Close Ester I'm in Northern KY and that Black Satin is probably one of the best mulches I've run across. It's not that black died stuff and it's a real fine shredded wood. It must have some manure in it to because it has that smell to it. Plus best of all it's fairly cheap $2.40 for 2 square feet.
Back to one of my earlier questions has anyone bought worms to add to their dirt or does everyone just wait for them to show up? I have some huge night crawlers in my compost pile but the deeper areas where I've used fill dirt have very few worms and they're usually only the RWers. I figure if I purchase some to get things started it couldn't hurt.

Strouper

Don't need them, if the soil will support them they will come if not they will die if you add them. Do all your work above ground and leave the rest to God, he has it worked out and you canÂt do anything but get in the way.