first ... a pine is a conifer.. and there is a conifer forum .... but i dont care where you post ...

second.. i would ID the pine... some pines can grow 3 to 5 feet per year ...

after knowing what it is.. then research the annual growth rate .... to make predictions on how big it will get in time ....

then ... make the decision ... based on your concerns regarding the oak .. whether you really want to invest time and energy into this plant ...

you dont say how big your yard is... but some gardens just wont support a 100 foot pine tree down the line ...

now.. once you made it this far ... IF IT WERE ME ... i wouldnt ignore the small amount of sand ... IF a pine is twice as big below ground.. as above ... this little footprint of sand.. really shouldnt be impacting a pine of any great size... there will be those who dont agree ...

if its a 4 foot tall pine.. then maybe i would be concerned ...

personally .. i would probably figure that you would do more root damage removing the sand .. rather than just ignoring it ...

this all premised on the fact that i dont know your zone [ i mean i never gardened in it].. or what kind of alien pine it might be.. a proper ID might change my mind ...

a picture of the trunk.. and needles and some buds.. will probably get you an ID in the conifer forum ...

good luck

ken

Should I remove the sand, or just leave it and assume that whatever damage has been done to the tree at this point cannot be undone anyway?

I'll give the same answer I gave on another thread in this forum: remove it. Pines/spruce/most conifers don't like their collars covered.

As an arborist, I find it rare that trees fall over without warning (unless the 'without warning' is a windstorm/hurricane/tornado. Certified arborists can see this coming and you may want to spend the money for a consult if you have concerns about your trees' health. You'll be glad you did.

Dan

What is the diameter of the circle formed by the drip line of the tree?

What is the diameter of the circle formed by the drip line of the tree?

This is a non-sequitur. The issue is with the collar.

This is the quote I used on the other forum:

"Although there are reports of trees rooting into deep fill and surviving for long periods, placing fill over the trunks of trees is ill advised. Not only is exchange of gases disrupted, but many trees are subject to collar rot, which can occur if the trunk remains moist. A new root system develops in the fill, and the old system dies. The new root system may be adequate to keep the tree green and healthy, but asa the old root system decays, the stability of the tree is jeopardized." (pg 319)

Harris, Clark and Matheny 1999. Arboriculture: Integrated management of landscape trees, shrubs, and vines. Prentice Hall, Upper Saddle River NJ. 3rd Ed. 687 pp.

Dan

Thanks for the info so far. I had tried to do some research on my own and found conflicting reports, as I see in these posts as well, about whether it would do more damage to remove the fill than to just leave it in place. Our back yard is big - about the size and shape of a football field - and the tree appears to have been trimmed to facilitate it falling away from the house should it indeed fall over.

The large (9 ft dia.) oak that fell appeared to suffer from carpenter ant damage, and we found several large carpenter ant colonies in residence in the two remaining largest trees around our home. We have had them sprayed to eliminate the ants, but I have not had luck in the yellow pages finding an arborist to gauge the actual health of the trees now. It has proved to be maddenly difficult to get any type of contractor service here in Longview. I may see if I can get help from a county extension agent or an A&M extension ofc.

In the arborist community, there is no conflict; the quote above is from 'the bible' of arboriculture, and I served with Harris for years on a tree board & trust his judgment implicitly.

Your extension office has a list of ISA certified arborists, and here is the list of certified arborists in TX, many fine ones down there. They'll take care of you.

Dan

Actually Dan the diameter of the drip line is a rough diameter of the root system and the information is pertinent. This is to compare to the six foot diameter of the sand to grasp the entire situation. My neighbor recently had a tree evaluated by an ISA certified arborist who declared the tree solid at the base, he couldnÂt have been more wrong.

David

I suppose that if the sandbox has been in place for many years it may not be all that big of an issue- sand is very coarse and allows for air and water movement in a way almost no other filling could. Still, that doesn't mean it is not a cause for concern.

Really, do you have any use for it? The sandbox, I mean. Do you have children that would make use of it? If it serves no purpose then I would say you might consider removing it regardless of any real damage, if it is a landscape feature that does nothing for you.

"Actually Dan the diameter of the drip line is a rough diameter of the root system..."

In general, that is completely untrue. I guess there are some species or situations where this might be correct, but in general, it's just wrong. A pine's root system will extend far beyond the dripline.

Secondly, in this situation, Dan's concern about collar rot does appear to be the primary concern. I'm not at all convinced that the tree is doomed with this sandbox left in place, but the issue of moisture being held against the tree's lower trunk does raise possibilities. Fledgeling is exactly on target about the sand being less harmful than most other materials, and the 6" depth is relatively shallow considering the material.

David,
Actually Dan the diameter of the drip line is a rough diameter of the root system and the information is pertinent.

No.

No for both the root system diameter and for the pertinence. As I repeatedly stated above, it is the collar that is at issue, not roots. Collar.

And to follow on fledgeling's good advice and brandon's good comments, I'm not stating the tree is doomed, but it is a bad idea to leave the sandbox, for numerous reasons. First and foremost, tree health: why risk it?

Dan

are you guys are missing something...

my kids have grown past the baby sand pit ....

i have now planted conifers in there ...

how can we assume [you know the old adage] ... that this tree was not properly planted in its spot ...

the mere suggestion that it is improperly planted in this location.. is a quantum leap in assumptions ...

if it was properly planted.. then removal of the sand.. is irrelevant .. and potentially harmful to the tree .. IMHO ...

in the original post.. she provides no info regarding the trunk flare ... though perhaps i missed it in the follow ups ...

please post a picture ... so we can SEE the situation.. before we continue to argue about it all ...

if properly planted... pines love sand ... the sand is irrelevant.. if the trunk flair is at the right level..

and we can argue until we are blue in the face... until we determine that fact ...

use the GW search function for photobucket ... its free.. and easy ..

theory is wonderful ... arguing theory is stimulating .. but if its not based on some facts .. its useless ...

here is the easy way .. first.. look at a telephone pole .... straight down.. and into the ground ....

now go look at ANY tree .. there is a flair above the soil surface..

whether or not that flair is visible is determinative to where the debate goes from here ...

please post a pic.. if you can ....

ken

Ken, you're right. It always helps to take a step back.

Hi Guys, and thank you for all the input. I have posted some photos of the tree and its situation using the link URL option.

To provide a little extra background: we purchased this home nearly two years ago from a family of four with two small children. This couple was attempting to "flip" the house and had done numerous cosmetic things to the home and landscape, and I suspect they are the ones who put the sandbox in... perhaps for their kids to play in. Prior to their ownership it had been a rental house, and I doubt renters would have gone to that much trouble. When we bought the house, there were four azalea bushes planted in the sand, which promptly died, of course. There were lots of other plants in wrong places that had obviously just been put there for 'show,' which I have corrected. My point is that I suspect the sandbox has only been in place for 3-4 years. There is no reason for me to keep it there.

The lack of flare at the base is what really prompted me to post in the first place. I have little experience on forums, so please let me know if I need to be doing anything different re: postings, photos, etc.

I would really like an excuse to remove the timbers and the sand, so that I can use them to help create a raised vegetable garden further back in the yard. However, I would feel terrible if my doing so would cause the tree to die.

Unfortunately, the helpful list of arborists does not show anyone local to East Texas - we're about 120 miles east of Dallas, close to the LA border.

Here is a link that might be useful: Photos of Sandbox

I also just posted an additional photo showing the top of the tree.... I noticed that all the live branches are growing on the north side almost exclusively, except for the crown. At first I thought it had been pruned this way, but upon closer inspection I notice that even existing branches on the south side are mostly dead. Is this a sign of impending doom?

There are spider lily bulbs in the sandbox right now which I intend to dig out in the next few days. While I'm digging, I'll watch for any tree root intrusion into the sand substrate.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pine Tree Sandbox

Removing the sandbox will not cause the tree to die. Just remove the boards and gently rake the sand away from the trunk. As you're working down through the sand, stop when you hit roots or original ground level. This looks like a very simple and straight forward fix, and I don't foresee any problems.

Branches are shed when they don't receive enough light. From looking at your picture, I bet that is what's happened to your tree.

Removing the timbers & sand will not cause the tree to die. Leaving them there may weaken the tree & hasten its demise. There is no downside to removal.

Dan

Branches are shed when they don't receive enough light. From looking at your picture, I bet that is what's happened to your tree.

From here, it looks that way to me as well.

Dan

Thanks, everyone. I watered the sand to soften it up, then used a dirt rake to nibble away one side of the sandbox. I am finding numerous feathery roots pointing away from the tree in all directions in the sand, so far none more than around 2-3 mm thick. I assume that exposing these roots will cause them to die, but that should be ok for the tree, right? Once the tree base has been fully exposed again, I guess the rest of the roots will assume their function?

A few little roots on a tree that size will not make any difference. Most people wouldn't go to the trouble to do this, but if you wanted to cut any torn or tattered roots with a sharp knife and leave them exposed to the air for a day or two to seal off, it wouldn't be a bad idea. That might ever so slightly decrease the chance of disease entering through torn roots by allowing the tree to more quickly seal off that part of the root system.

Agreed with brandon. Yay! got rid of that ugly thing.

Dan

just move the boards .. and buy a few bags of sand ... and leave the sand there ....

if there are cats in the area.. you will have made them a giant litter box.. been there...

but in pic DSC05212 .. i would be concerned about the huge pine on the right corner of the house ...

and the other smaller ones ...

i have nightmares about trees falling on my house ... KILLING ME IN MY SLEEP ....

i would invest in a certified opinion of all the trees with that potential ....

those pines.. look like they were there.. when the land was cleared to build the house.. or planted the day after the first owner moved in ... they were improperly sited ...

are you in any kind of storm area???

ken

Yes! We actually experienced hurricane-force winds when Ike came through last year, and numerous homes on our block were damaged by tree falls - we watched it happen from our garage during the storm. Katrina and Wilma also affected us. This is an older neighborhood with lots and lots of very large trees. Ike happened about a month after the large oak fell, so I was a basket case throughout the storm. I now have a not-so-irrational fear of one of the remaining trees falling on the house, and do intend to find someone to assess the health of them before the spring monsoon season arrives.

Yes, the trees around this house are either original growth or planted at the time of house build (1955), and are quite huge and very close to the house. I have an 18 month old son and worry constantly about the possibility of a fall. That huge pine Ken mentioned is two trees whose base grew together... they were tethered together up high at one point, but the tether has broken. That tree sits right outside our front door. The fact that the corner oak fell during a still early morning (i.e. no wind or rain at the time) underlines the fact that it could happen any time. Amazingly, so far we have no significant foundation damage per the home inspector 2 years ago.

Again, thank you all for all your help. I'll work on clearing the base of the "sandbox pine" and will seek certified help on the remaining giants. You guys may be hearing from me again as I continue my work.

That huge pine Ken mentioned is two trees whose base grew together... they were tethered together up high at one point, but the tether has broken. That tree sits right outside our front door.

Prime hazard tree. We call the house a 'target'. Call around and find an arborist who won't mind the drive.

Dan

frankly.. i wouldnt waste money on an arborist ...

i would just get 5 estimates for removal of the corner pine.. and the smaller stuff that is also too close ot the house ... and maybe the hardwood ... which means pretty much everything back there ...

you will be amazed at the price differences.. i also suggest a company that has viable insurance for liability and work comp ... and i would call the day before they arrive to verify current coverage ...

if hubby has any inclination toward chainsaw work .. one way to save money ..

is to pay to have them taken down .... and then do the cleanup yourself ... especially if you are rural enough to be allowed to burn the refuse.. and recycle the good wood to fire place sized pieces ..

then i would start a plan to grow some good trees ... properly sited in your yard ...

yeah.. i know.. its not what you wanted to hear ...

and i dont care how good or well trained an arborist might be... storms like IKE ... just arent going to make any opinion about trees worth all that much ...

good luck

ken

i would just get 5 estimates for removal of ...pretty much everything back there ...

No.

Why would someone say this who has only seen 5 pictures? Come now.

This is why you hire someone who knows what they are talking about so you don't cut your shade down and the electricity bills triple because you cut something down you didn't need to.

Dan

Thanks for posting the other photos, itÂs very helpful; as stated above, remove the landscape timbers and what sand you can (probably already have). Can you post a photo taken from the side of the house to show if the trees are leaning in the direction of the house? Ones large deciduous tree seems to be leaning, but itÂs difficult to tell the exact angle from the photo.

The house behind me was just hit by a large oak tree; the impact toppled the chimney onto the roof creating a hole almost ten feet in diameter. Ironically a tree service removed several trees from the yard a two years ago and one of trees the tree service advised on leaving was the one that did the damage.

Yes, shade can reduce your utilities bills, but if a trees about to go, no need to let it take your home with it. Valid concern Ken. As Ken stated get five estimates with recommendations if possible, youÂre under no obligation to remove any tree. Someone physically in your yard can better evaluate the situation than we can.

Get 3-5 estimates from certified arborists, not from from some yahoo with a chainsaw and pickup who tops trees for beer money.

Dan

Gee, Dan, you must know where I live. Those yahoos are pretty much the only game in town here in Longview. I was excited to find that there are some arborists working locally for Asplundh, but didn't realize that they only handle commercial/municipal accounts. I'm going to call them back this afternoon to see if they can recommend anyone in the area to help.

I'm in the process of taking pictures of the trees around the house and will post shortly. Cleanup of the sandbox went well albeit was labor intensive... lots of shoveling and 7 trips with my front end loader on the lawn tractor to unload sand.

You might check the ISA's site for a reference. BTW, this site is an extremely valuable source of information about trees.

Here is a link that might be useful: ISA's Find a Tree Care Service

Daizey:

that link I gave above likely contains folks that will travel to look at your trees, your Photobucket gallery may help them decide. Times are tight these days and if they can make it work, they'll travel.

The folks working for Asplundh or Davey et al. might do side work as well - that's how many of them break off and start their own businesses (that's how I started my landscaping business). You may also want to stop and talk to a crew after you call the office (but don't do it while the chipper is showering everyone).

Lastly, good link brandon!

Dan

New pics of surrounding trees are posted.

Here is a link that might be useful: Trees Surrounding House