White Pine tree healthy from the bottom branches to the top but...
seagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
8 years ago
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Smivies (Ontario - 5b)
8 years agoRelated Discussions
Should I Remove Existing Sandbox from Base of Pine Tree?
Comments (32)Yes! We actually experienced hurricane-force winds when Ike came through last year, and numerous homes on our block were damaged by tree falls - we watched it happen from our garage during the storm. Katrina and Wilma also affected us. This is an older neighborhood with lots and lots of very large trees. Ike happened about a month after the large oak fell, so I was a basket case throughout the storm. I now have a not-so-irrational fear of one of the remaining trees falling on the house, and do intend to find someone to assess the health of them before the spring monsoon season arrives. Yes, the trees around this house are either original growth or planted at the time of house build (1955), and are quite huge and very close to the house. I have an 18 month old son and worry constantly about the possibility of a fall. That huge pine Ken mentioned is two trees whose base grew together... they were tethered together up high at one point, but the tether has broken. That tree sits right outside our front door. The fact that the corner oak fell during a still early morning (i.e. no wind or rain at the time) underlines the fact that it could happen any time. Amazingly, so far we have no significant foundation damage per the home inspector 2 years ago. Again, thank you all for all your help. I'll work on clearing the base of the "sandbox pine" and will seek certified help on the remaining giants. You guys may be hearing from me again as I continue my work....See MorePlease, what in the world? Mushy branches and yet healthy roots.
Comments (9)I agree totally with jandey. I always water mine enough in the winter to keep the root balls from shrinking. For my 'garaged' plants, I usually check them about every two weeks. Since your plants are in warmth (what about light?), the chance of them rotting from water in the soil is a bit less. But to be on the safer side, when I water, I try to water around the perimeter of the pot rather than right at the base of the trunk. I would make sure they get some light - maybe add a cheapo flourescent if you don't already. Keep it at less than 8 hours. Last winter I watered too much and the garage got too cold for some plants (low 40s for prolonged periods), so I had some major rot on both stems and below the soil surface. This year I am watering a bit less and keeping the temps in the garage at between 53 deg. and 60 deg.F. They all look really good and some new inflos are starting to develop! 55 degrees seems to be a magic number for a lot of tropicals. It keeps them dormant, but they don't get overly cold. And bugs are not a problem. In the house where the temps are between 60 and 70, I don't worry quite as much about watering. I feel down about an inch into the soil. If it's bone dry, then I'll water a bit around the perimeter of the pot. Many of the indoor plumerias still have leaves and are pulling up water. Also, keep in mind that warm house areas are usually very low in humidity. Heck, even with our whole-house humidifier, I can't seem to get the humidity any higher than 40%. So that dryness will act to descicate the plants even more. In the South where they bare-root store them in garages, there are frequent warm-ups AND much higher humidity, which helps preserve the dormant plants, in my opinion....See MoreHelp - Growing large trees from seed (and keeping them healthy).
Comments (17)Question 1 - I was really blown away by how deep and big the taproot is growing on these trees. It's like most of the energy is going to create this big root. It's thicker than the trunks in every case, and the roots are easily twice to sometimes 3x as long as the seedling itself. So on on of them, I cut back the taproot a little bit... I took about a half an inch. I had read Al mentioning that slowly cutting back a taproot over time can help spur the tree to grow more roots higher up. I hope I didn't take it out of context. The first day the lowest leaf of that seedling, which has started to go brown on the rim, became pale and collapsed on one side of the leaf. Then yesterday it went dry. Today there has been no further progress of the leaf's collapse and no further signs of stress. The seedling seems strong... Was I wrong to try and trim it back just a little bit? Or did I do alright? Is this seedling out of the woods for now do you think? Young plants are nearly all dynamic mass, and as such, have a very strong "will to live". If your plant is currently doing well, there is no reason it will take a turn unless something cultural forces a change in course. Bonsai practitioners have learned that lifting seedlings as soon as the first set of true leaves emerge and removing the seed radicle immediately below the root to shoot transition zone and treating the top as a cutting eliminated taproot issues entirely in most plants. In stubborn plants with a hard tendency toward vertical roots, you'll need to regularly remove all first order roots (attached to main stem) growing downward from the root to shoot transition zone as well as all second order roots growing up or down off the first order roots. Question 2 - related to question 1, regarding the other seedling I root pruned a little. This one I took a little more off of because of root rot. I know I had to take it off, and I also took off a bit of taproot for this one too. The seedling itself seems fine. The uppermost leaf - which is fairly new and thin yet - went limp the first day, but has become stronger and greener these last two days. I know I had to take off the bad roots, but I was worried I went too far. I'm hoping I'm seeing indications that I didn't? Only way to tell is by putting a waiting period behind you during which the plant retains its turgidity throughout the daylight hours. Stomata close at night and slow water loss, so unhealthy plants have opportunity to recover from low internal water pressure and wilting. No wilt during the day is a good indication to bet on full recovery. Question 3 - When I was done, I investigated the 5 'dead' seedlings. Two of them looked like some of Al's bare-root pictures. The main part of the taproot was healthy, seemed alive, and had small alive roots still growing from it. but the end of the root was truncated in mush, much of which fell off into the soil. I washed them as clean as I could in a mist spray and cut off the mushy end to clean root. Then I potted those in 5:1:1 too. I'm hoping against hope that I might be able to save them. The top id dead back to the twiggy stump... Any thoughts if they might come back? Anything special I might do for them to give them the best shot - for instance a special fertilizer or watering strategy? Withhold fertilizer until the plant recovers. DAMP or MOIST are the operative words. If the fungal infection has gummed up the plumbing such that a vascular connection between roots and shoots isn't in the offing, it's a goner. If the infection isn't systemic, the possibility of retaining viability is still on the table. What kills cuttings is the inability to make that plumbing connection due to rot, or the cutting having an inadequate energy reserve. If the plant/cutting/seedling runs out of reserve energy while it still a net user of energy instead of a net producer of energy, it's over. 4: I have 5 I have not yet repotted. They seem to be okay... though 3 aren't doing much of anything, they're just existing and may have some first sign of browning on lowest leaves, but I might be looking too hard too... One is finishing it's fall flush of leaves, and one is start starting it's fall flush... I'm not sure if I should repot them so close to winter or if I should let them be until spring, since they seem okay right now. I especially am not sure I should mess with the one putting out new leaves. But on the other hand, what if I really am seeing some warning signs and some suddenly start taking a down turn in the next week or month? Wouldn't it be better to do it early, now, rather than later? The only reason I re-potted the ones I did was because I was sure they wouldn't make it through winter... I am not sure on these ones. If they were your plants, what would you do? A dearth of mobile nutrients, over-watering, root congestion, soil compaction, can all lead to loss of lower leaves. I'll ask you to spare me from having to do the research by telling me if these plants would normally enter a predictive dormancy during the fall to winter transition? If yes, then waiot until spring but guard against over-watering. If no, repot only if you suspect strongly that the plants will no longer be viable come late spring (June). 5: Fungus gnats. =( I manage to get rid of them for a while, but they always come back. Of course, I was always using compost mixes, particularly organic ones, and they're usually lousy with them no matter how much a brand claims they pasteurize/sterilize for pests. Do non-mineral soil media mixes have the same ability to attract and support these and other soil-borne pests? If yes, which ones to watch for? If you don't already have a good understanding of what constitutes the comparative degrees of container media (as in unusable, practically unusable, just plain poor, ok, better, and the variations of better from 'sort of better' to 'really a whole lot better'), making that a priority will almost certainly propel your advancement farther/faster than anything else you might apply yourself to in the near term. If you need the info that can tie soils up into a neat little conceptualization, I'll be really glad to help, but I think trying to do it in a thread that covers so many topics isn't the best format. Are you familiar with and understand the concept discussed here? Which brings my follow-up: If it can support pests that spent part or all of their life cycle in soil, then it should be able to support their predators too, right? I prefer to combat pests with their predators, like nematodes, predatory mites, aphid lions, etc. Would this be doable if needed? How about we work toward providing a home for roots that doesn't provide creature comforts? In the immediate, mosquito dunks and a restrained hand on the watering can are potential remedies. 6: For the future of these little babies of mine, what would a good strategy be for keeping them happy growing in a container? You'll find an outline here that will provide a plan for maintaining woody material in containers and in good health indefinitely. I know I need to keep them smaller than if they were in the landscape, and that means eventually removing the taproot. I also understand that taproot removal usually starts after a year. But these trees don't actually seem to have much besides taproot... smaller roots branch off of it, and a few have some smaller roots that come from the trunk matrix but not most from what I've seen. Would the best bet be to gradually prune the tap root back over a few years in an attempt to get the trees to put out more roots higher up? Or should I go for broke and just cut it way back and defoliate? Or is it possible that the poor media I have been growing in so far as not encouraged growth at the higher and mid root range and drove the roots downwards looking for air? I'm sorry I haven't taken any pictures to share to give you a better idea. If I end up re-potting any of the others, I will take some. I think I covered these questions above, but if not, ask again. Al...See MoreHow close can you build next to large white pine trees?
Comments (28)I'm building a cottage, garage and garden shed in some woods. I have researched this situation quite a bit since I have many different types of trees from oaks, gums, maples, magnolias, pines, sassafras and more. I had to make sure the foundation of these buildings clear the root systems AND allow clearance for falling branches. The falling branches was the easy part since a tree generally drops branches downward unless there are substantial winds to carry them further afield. I spoke to not only my landscape architect but also an arborist and our local U.S. Forest Service. Basic rule is not to build under a canopy. If you really want to be totally safe from a tree that falls due to storm activity, the put the edge of the foundation at minimum the height of the matured tree. If the tree isn't matured, then you can look up the information. Keep in mind that it isn't an exact number. IOW, if a tree grows to average 80', that means a particular tree can top out at maturity anywhere from 50' to 120'. That said, you need to figure out tree root growth of any tree close by that meets the above information. Roots are the lifeline of a tree from seedling to maturity. They are extremely powerful and each part of the root system has a special job - even the small roots that many people ignore. Their job is to seek out any and all sources of nutrients and water that particular tree requires conceding the climate, soil and soil structure in layers as well as crossing paths with various roots from other trees. So all roots constantly grow and extend themselves. Soil that is mostly clay or better than 50% as an example compact easily. As roots push through the clay, it becomes more densely packed. If soil is loose, sandy, dirt & rocks, roots go through easily and the soil displaces. You need to know your soil because that will give you information on any damage root systems can cause any foundation. Also be aware some trees such as cypress and cherry laurels as well as some magnolias will extend part of their root system to the surface. So know the trees in your area you wish to lay a foundation of any kind. Another area to understand is weather conditions generally in your area various times of the year. If you get a lot of rains, expect the root system to expand as they absorb water. If drought conditions occur, they will shrink when soils, particularly clay soils dry out. In either condition, the soil changes which can affect the foundation. That probably causes a good portion of cracking concrete as well as the settling factor. Pipes can also do a lot of damage. If you are laying your foundation near a tree with aggressive root expansion, you can easily build a root barrier for protection. Slower growing trees also spread their roots slower than trees such as willows, elms and some maples that prefer to send their roots deep and wide. Oaks grow slower but their roots are shallow and can easily be tipped over in heavy wind conditions in storms. Pines tend to have a long tap root which anchors t hem pretty dang securely. Since they tend to drop branches, it's best to build a foundation away from the canopy. Estimate distance if it's not a mature tree. Roots can spread and develop two to three times its height depending conditions. An Eastern white pine aka Northern pine averages about 150' tall at maturity with a canopy spread from 20-40' and a 40" girth. Average life is about 200 years but can live to 450 years in good conditions. Urban pines generally get a bit over 100 years. A shallow foundation of a garage is more prone to damage by tree roots if it covers much of the tree roots. If you build a strong roof to withstand a branch or two dropping occasionally, you could build slightly under the canopy. If you plan cautiously, cutting down healthy trees should only be your last resort....See More
seagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
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8 years agoSmivies (Ontario - 5b)
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8 years agoseagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
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8 years agoseagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
8 years agoseagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
8 years agolast modified: 8 years ago
in picture directly above, my walkway to the front door is seen to the right.
good view of the curb above. The brown stuff is my grass. Needs water. But I have little grass so I conserve water by not have a big monoculture of grass without native species. I could see how a big camper might end up with a sprig of needles in his grill or something but no scratching. Needles are ultrasoft.
Notice how it's much wider as it gets taller.
Here's the big offender hanging over the curb. If someone says they had a car accident from that, I don't think they have much of a case. It's a massive grey owl juniper. It's 99% on my property. It self-prunes in winter, edge you see gets a little brown. I cut if off in spring, it recovers during summer (perfect now). Last year I pruned about now, it looked browned and ugly in this spot from now until I clipped it again in spring. It doesn't make sense to prune it now.
Renters across the street back into (would be all over my grass before I planted this) its branches, breaking them off. Their tire treads are in the dirt under the plant. I believe this plants helps people stay more on the street and less jumping the curb and making ruts in the grass I used to have. I had a big rock but that would just end up pushed into my yard from the trucks backing into it. It's EASY to stay in the street. When I back out of my driveway with an SUV, I don't jump the curb onto their grass.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
8 years agoseagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan thanked ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5seagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoseagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
8 years agoMarie Tulin
8 years agoseagreen_turtle Z5b/6a SE Michigan
8 years ago
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5