INteresting questions. Look forward to hearing responses. I'm new to OGRs so don't have too much experience to share. Stasi

We have grown roses of most types.
I don't want to know how much money we've spent on David Austin roses, and the latest Hybrid Tea Roses.

For us, the answer in a nutshell is:

We grow the roses that perform best here, in terms of garden beauty, bloom-production, disease-resistance, and fragrance.
(In our opinion, EVERYONE should do that. The "best performers" will of course vary from one place to another.)

In our climate and conditions (Coastal Southern Ventura County, SoCalif) the classes of roses that best-meet those criteria are:
Tea Roses, China Roses, and Noisette Roses. So for the most part, that is what we now grow.

A few Hybrid Perpetuals squeeze in, a few Damask-Perpetuals, and quite a number of Polyanthas.

The issues of rarity, preservation, and romance, of course, have their place in this, but it should be remembered that NOT ALL THAT IS OLD IS GOOD.

We have a very few Austin roses here, one Hybrid Tea Rose, and IIRC, one modern Floribunda.

FWIW, we planted Mary Rose here at about the same time we planted Baronne Prevost. BP remains. MR does not.

Jeri

Aimeekitty- I can't imagine replacing my Fantin Latours with Mary Rose...although it's a nice enough rose. My Fantin Latours are still small, but from what I've read, the fragrance and the blooms are different from Mary Rose.

OGRs have a history that is part of their charm. They have been around a long time and many bloom much more abundantly (if for a shorter time) than the repeat or continually blooming roses.

Many of the OGRs I've decided to grow (albas, gallicas, damasks) may or may not grow in your area. I cannot grow the teas, noisettes and many of the other warm weather roses that you can grow. When I was planning my garden spaces, I put the once blooming roses in the back of the beds (they're usually large) and put the repeat bloomers in the front. I got a few portlands, rugosa hybrids and hybrid musks for the front of the beds...I hope they make a nice combination.

One reason I chose OGRs is that the farmhouse we own is from the early 1900's, so I tried to pick flowers that would go with the era of the home...with some additions over the years (like the hybrid musks). I think some OGRs would go well with the iris your grandmother gave you (if I remember correctly from the cottage forum) so you might want to try some, along with the repeat bloomers :)

Carefree Beauty (10 y/o) is the absolute best performing rose in my garden- best vigor, disease resistance, rebloom. Fragrance is minimal but other attributes make CB the best. I'd have to say the next best are Safrano, Cl. American Beauty, Mutabilis, SDLM and Alister Stella Gray. Some others are still immature and I can't say yet. I've dug up more DA's than remain and some light colored teas that just don't have enough undamaged blooms, spring or fall to tolerate. The only DA's that I've kept and still love are Abe Darby and John Clare. Another modern that is coming on strong is Thomas Affleck. I have no HT's but I did love Lafter except for the vicious thorns. It was very healthy, vigorous and a great bloomer. I would love to have Red Radiance but can't find it for sale anywhere. I do love the historical significance of old roses.

Whenever I have people over to look at the garden, they leave with a very, very good idea why I grow what I grow. Roses are here because they are healthy and hardy. They aren't here for sentimental reasons - this is a 'working garden'. The only 'modern' roses that really make the cut are Explorers. Aside from that most of the roses are once bloomers (including oddities like Robbie Burns and James Mason, BTW)

Jeri, are most of the polyanthas you grow poly-teas? Polyanthas really struggle here because of the pH, and I thought yours was fairly high also.

I'm with Jeri. I grow the roses that work best for my climate.

I wished I had known about OGR qualities before I had invested over 1500 dollars worth of David Austin roses (in two years, mine you). Austins do not have the drought tolerance, disease resistance, and quite frankly the history that OGR possess.

Dont take me wrong. I love the look of the Austins blooms, but why not go for the real thing? Just my opinion.

Also the fact that some OGRs were once in the gardens of Kings and Queens and noblemen, I love being able to share in the history/treasures within my own garden.

For example, I have two little ones, girls, who are in the "princess" phase of their lives. ItÂs a great opportunity for me to share the roses history. The possibility that this rose may have been in the garden of Princess-so-and-so captures their hearts and hopefully this little bit of info will stay with them as they mature.

I will be interested to read others opinions tooÂ

Audrey

I just have to say I echo what everyone else has said. I'm still experimenting as I haven't lived in this state long, but what works is what stays here. For instance, I have La Belle Sultane right next to a double pink Knockout. Each are grown because they look great all season.

I used to be an OGR snob until years ago in Florida I grew Belinda's Dream. She changed my outlook on moderns and gave me my current perspective of health being the most important factor.

Having said that I seriously doubt I'll ever have a reddish-orange, high-centered HT called "Sexy Hot Mama" or some other equally horrible name in my garden no matter how healthy it may be.

However, I reserve the right to change my mind about that.:D

You know, there are many modern roses that are beautiful, bush and flower, such as the DA roses I dearly love that have many similarities to historic roses, but I don't think anything compares to the breathtaking beauty of all those Old Garden Roses. If my garden was big enough and I had the proper winter chill for some of them, I would grow so many, it would make my head spin. Charles de Mills for example, is too die for.

Juliet

Just to clarify, I currently have a mix of DAs, portlands, polyantha, old teas, old hybrid teas, tea-noisettes and noisettes, hybrid perpetuals, hybrid musks and 1 modern hybrid tea.,... so I'm definitely not anti OGR... :) :) I'm just very curious and wanting to learn more about lots of things, since I just got into roses heavily this year, I'd love to know about the choices and rationale of people who have had them longer and are more knowledgeable.

I've mostly chosen based on recommendations of people in my zone on the forums and recommendations based on climate in books and websites... and roses I've seen in person growing well locally. (given what my personal taste is...) but I'm sure that over time of growing them, some will stay and some will go or be replaced for either personal taste or performance reasons.

(Luckily noisette and tea-noisette and hybrid musks are just about my favorite classes, and they seem to do well here... so yay!)

Jeri, that's really interesting about Mary Rose!

Lavender Lass - When I look at photos of Fantin Latour, I don't see as how it's so horribly similar to Mary Rose, even though Mary Rose is lovely!
And yes, I'm the one with grandmother's irises. :) Thankyou. :) I actually put a La France cl., behind the irises. I'm really hoping they'll look nice together.

Thanks for all the responses so far, I look forward to more!
I'd like to know more about WHY you made the choice you guys did, though,... like madgallica,... can you give some examples about particular roses you chose that work well in your garden and why? Like "X OGR works because of X". "X modern rose did not work because of X"

Well, I have a bit of everything really, but the more I learned about OGRs, the more it seemed to be a better choice. HTs and partly DAs just leave me cold somehow - and in our village there are a few very nice mass plantings of HTs - it is pretty, but neither me, neither DH likes it to the level that we would want to have it in our garden. I like some HMusks and few other modern shrub roses, but OGRs often give that touch of nature to the garden.

It is difficult to explain really, but I think part of prettiness in nature comes from the randomness of forms and accidental planting. Like last year near our fence gate in a tiny piece of ground where the border stone was missing grew 2 self-seeded foxgloves, one bright pink and other white and slightly smaller - sometimes nature just does a perfect planting herself. I think OGRs have some of that nature charm, when moderns were bred for decades to be more uniform, compact, loosing fragrance and so on. I rather have a mess of a plant, because it is just not boring.

Then again, I see a flower bouquet where others would just see a handful of hay. x)

I grow a row of HTs along my driveway because they work well in a narrow long bed. I fight every winter to make their growth habit more pleasing (I cut the canes nearest to the driveway shortest, and farthest longest) but still they look more or less like soldiers on parade. I have another row of HTs out of sight in a side yard for cutting. The ones I grow have wonderful fragrance and a long vase life, both of which I appreciate very much. The same applies to the floribundas I have.

I like my Austins because they bloom from top to bottom and are nice rounded shrubs (some of them anyway:-)). They make a much more spectacular display than HTs. They don't last in a vase and are not fast repeaters for me, but those I grow have wonderful fragrance and look good in the garden.

I don't grow many Teas because they get so huge and I can't find enough room for them in my mostly narrow beds. I do grow some that are smaller. I like them because they are not as loud as most HTs. They seem subtler and more elegant. I also love the muddled shape of blooms and variable pastel color blends. They are also better garden shrubs than HTs in my opinion. I can't say I care very much for tea fragrance though:-(

I think polyanthas are great because they break up what could be a monotonous planting of roses with huge blooms, so I treat them like companion plants. They are worthy garden plants, some with a rounded growth habit and fast repeat.

I grow a few once-bloomers under a huge decidous tree. No other rose would work there (maybe a hybrid musk...) and after they bloom and the tree leafs out they are just foliage plants.

The two bourbons I grow (Zeffy and Mme Isaac Pereire), I grow because I like the color, shape and fragrance. They are no different otherwise than a modern climber. I got rid of my Variegata di Bologna because it was the worst disease magnet in my yard and I couldn't stand it anymore.

I have a few Pernetianas because I like the crazy colors. I also have a few early HTs (such as Nancy Lee and Hermann Lindecke) which I grow solely for curiosity's sake.

I grow rugosas because they look so different from other garden roses, but unlike species, they rebloom. They require minimal care (I don't deadhead or prune) and bloom fairly well (not the fastest repeaters). Also, I get benefits like nice fall foliage and hips.

Masha

Mad Gallica said: Jeri, are most of the polyanthas you grow poly-teas? Polyanthas really struggle here because of the pH, and I thought yours was fairly high also.

*** For the most part, yes. Where I DO have "true" Polys, they get a dose of soil sulfur as needed. And a few of them surprise me, by handling it fairly well.

There are some oddities --
'TOOTH FAIRY' is a neat NEW Poly, bred by John Bagnasco. Not yet registered, I think. Tiny white flowers in big sprays on a plant that so far seems to have decent tolerance for my water.
and
'POOKAH' an op seedling from Jim Delahanty -- small single blooms with a white eye, in big sprays. I think 'Pookah' will be a smaller bush, that can go anywhere.

Jeri

This is a great question: thanks for posting it!
Like many others who've spoken up here, I grow the roses that look beautiful and grow well in my garden. I value fragrance, variety, and plants that look good as plants in the garden and aren't just structures to support the blooms. My garden is a rather tough environment and roses that want a fat life don't do well there. All these are reasons I grow mostly old and older roses. I think the DA roses are beautiful and I think David Austin himself is a brilliant breeder; but his roses don't do well in my garden. I don't care greatly about the romantic associations of old roses (after all, modern roses can have romantic associations, too), but I am influenced by the realization of the relative rarity of some of these roses and the desirability of growing them to help to preserve them.
I grow many classes of old roses, also species and their hybrids, shrub roses, climbers and ramblers, and my greatly loved Hybrid Musks, especially the Pembertons. One rose variety cannot "replace" another rose variety. A rose isn't just a flower form and color, not even when both have a good shrub form and both are fragrant. I was out today looking at my once-blooming old roses, the Gallicas and Centifolias and Damasks and Albas and Mosses, that are just coming into flower now, and, because of the cold spring we've been having, for once at the same time as the warm-climate varieties that are a couple of weeks behind their usual schedule. Wow, what a spectacle; but back to the peculiar qualities of once-bloomers. Like elemire said, they look "wilder" than modern varieties. Their leaves are soft and downy, or rough and dark; the flowers have finely bristled stalks and receptacles; their buds come in different shapes and have different kinds of sepals, some shorter, some long, some fringed. The buds and stalks are soft and slightly sticky to the touch, on account of the fragrant glands that, through sporting, became the "moss" of the moss roses. Their leaves come in different shapes, too: some large and rounded, some folded down the center, some recurved, some drooping. The flowers so often smell so sweet ('Botzaris' opened her first bloom today; I'm still inebriated) and have such a variety of scents, and have such soft petals and so many forms. The hips have as much character and variety as everything else about these roses--odd tubular Damask hips, big orange Bourbon hips with persistent black sepals, round dark Gallica hips, huge swollen hips with a large orifice (I forget which rose that one comes from). I won't even go into R. foetida, which has been in flower for a while and is the yellowest yellow that ever came from the hand of God or man (okay, it's not an old rose); or the lovely Multiflora foliage of Hybrid Musks like 'Cornelia', long and pointed and lustrous and dark. And I haven't even started on the Teas, for example 'Mme. Antoine Mari', an utterly elegant creature and at the same time at home in the humblest garden.
Yes, they're worth it.
Melissa

I am a science and math person- not a history person. So I don't grew certain roses for romantic reasons. My garden started out as a mixture that leaned heavily towards moderns. Before I chose those roses I did all the research looking for quick repeat and pretty bloom colors. 5 years later the moderns are out cause they just didn't work for me. One special quality of the ogrs that I am very grateful for is the shape of the plant. They look good in bloom and out of bloom. I HATE the bloom on a stick look. So ogrs have the health, the repeat, and the overall growth habit that i like- and very very few moderns have any of the above. Austins do have the growth habit- sometimes- and often have a myrrh fragrance that you can't find anywhere else.

Elmire and Melissa have mentioned the main reason I grow old roses - beautiful flowers that look natural and somewhat "wild" in the landscape. That's important for me because I live in a wild, natural landscape (including the bobcat who sat near the front door the other day), and I don't want my garden to look like something that is completely out of sync with its surroundings. One quality I love about the old roses, especially the teas and chinas I grow, is their ability to keep on growing and become larger every year, until they make a dramatic and unforgettable statement in the garden. How many hybrid teas or floribundas can do that? The Austins have that ability to some extent and I do have Austins in my garden because they do well here. I even have two hybrid teas, Yves Piaget and Classic Woman, because of the sumptuousness and size of their flowers, but even these Romantica roses look more at home in my garden than the average hybrid tea. There is for me as many others the draw of age and history, but were it not combined with beauty that wouldn't be enough. Also, for me many of the Austins are starting to look all look alike, and I love the difference in size, habit, color, contour and variability of the old roses. The modern roses mostly bore me - same character of blooms on same old bush. The excitement for me of a garden is fueled by diversity, and the old roses have that in abundance. Most of them also have a softness and charm in their flowers that has for the most part been bred out of the modern roses, although not necessarity the Austins. It comes down to this: I want my garden to look like a paradise - and modern hybrid teas and floribundas do not a paradise make.

Ingrid

I didn't use to be particularly drawn to roses but most I knew were hybrid teas planted in neat little rows. Then a friend introduced me to Austins and Austins introduced me to antique roses. I love the look of old roses and Austins - their flowers are so intricate and beautiful and singles offer a contrast and charm as well. I think the overall form of old rose bushes and the look of climbers is appealing. I currently grow roses that bloom well and are healthy and that includes some older varieties and moderns. So the bottom line for me is what appeals aesthetically and what blooms and grows well in zone 9. Fragrance is a plus too.

*** hybrid teas planted in neat little rows

That reminds me of the rose society member who came to my Open Garden and kept remarking that I had so many "lower growing plants". I thought he was referring to the companions, but then I learned he grows HTs and HTs in Florida are grown on Fortuniana, meaning they're 8 feet tall! I don't think I'd want a yard full of rows of 8 ft tall slender bushes (that I have to spray with nasty chemicals that are very expensive). Makes me think of a corn field. I think that would ruin the "garden feel" for me. I like the bush form of OGRs - even with their youthful gawkiness. I really do like the idea that these are really OLD plants with a history, but the biggest factor in my choosing OGRs is that they are the only roses that don't hate Florida! However, if I find myself with a loser down the road, I may look into Carefree Beauty. I'm a sucker for easy and perfect.

Sherry

"I HATE the bloom on a stick look."

I think that's a good way to put it, a lot of modern HTs do that and I can't stand it. Especially when the stick part is big and the flower is relatively tiny and uniform.

Several have commented on the garden quality of the OGR. This is more important to me than the bloom. To me,the stiff high centered bloom on a stick aspect of too many modern hybrid teas is unattractive in the garden, though I object less to it in the vase. In my opinion, Hybrid Teas are a better fit, landscape wise, to arid, rather barren surroundings, as found in Mexico's breath taking Sierra Madre, or to hideous, overly fussy, formal gardens, like those at Versailles, then to the verdant lushness of my summer jungle.

I admit to lapses in discipline, and therefore do have a handful of the best modern roses including the Austins, Elina, Dublin Bay, Julia Child, Pascali, Griff's Red, Basye's Blueberry and Purple roses, and Chrysler Imperial. (To change the subject for a moment, why would anyone name a rose after a car? Will there be a BMW 325 in next year's J&P catalog?)

With regard to the Austins, I consider The Pilgrim or Graham Thomas to be two worth growing, assuming you have the room, though none of the Austin's are disease proof the way say Cramoisi Superieur or Mutibilis are. (With the Austins the idea is to get the fragrant OGR bloom on a bush that will repeat nicely or bloom continuously. That has been achieved, but they are, in general, inferior in plant habit and health to many of the OGRs.) And why grow Gertrude Jekyl, which I have, in preference to its parent Comte de Chambord, which I also have?

Some years I can't resist trying yet more H.T.s, but then the next year I'll consider purging my garden of all of them, because by mid summer the contrast between the healthy and full foliage of the OGRs and the, by then, pathetic H.T.'s (with a few exceptions) is striking. (I'm not a sprayer enthusiast.)

If it is a landscape you are after, rather than a fluorescent carnival display, then you must grow the OGRs. From an aesthetic standpoint, the OGR bloom is clearly superior to the H.T. bloom in both the garden and the vase, but that's just a bonus compared to the foliage and plant form aspect. And then there is the important health issue, where in most of the country the OGR is clearly superior. But I have to say that this is one area where some amazing progress has been made by the breeders of H.T.s (Elina comes to mind!). I should also point out that on average the own root OGRs will be much longer lived than the budded Hybrid Teas. And finally there is the practical matter of maintenance. To keep your hybrid teas at their best throughout the summer you will need to stand over them with sprayer in one hand (most of them anyway) and a bucket of fertilizer in the the other, and a hose reel close at hand. The OGRs don't require that, though they appreciate a little fertilizer once in a while and some water now and then.

Well first of all I do love 'em all. My garden is quite eclectic. OGRs though are what made me truly fall head over heals in love with roses. I've always gardened and always had a few roses in my gardens, but the day I walked into a nursery of old roses my life changed. The variety of forms and flowers and leaves amazed me. The romantic names with historical references slew me. The scent! I became a rose collecter on that day and it's gone on and on, a passion. I don't look down on modern roses. Austins love my garden. But oh those special qualities!

IMHO everyone should grow a garden that pleases them, whether that be roses, hydrangeas, japanese maples, etc. I grow roses (and many other plants) because they please me. As I've grown older, I now grow plants that require less care. I have an organic garden, not because I'm a "greenie", but because it is easier.

In my garden, the roses that work best for me are a mixture of OGRs, mostly once bloomers, and modern shrub roses. I look for the ones with the least susceptibility to disease and pests. I've decreased my roses because they failed to meet this criteria.

When anyone says that this rose is better than that one, I question their knowledge of roses. Anyone who has grown roses in more than one location knows that what works in one garden may be a dismal failure in another. I cannot even go by what works in the Mid-Atlantic region, or another part of PA. I simply have to try one of these, giving it the best possible location and culture, and hope it performs.

So very much of gardening is a crap shoot. Weather, culture, seasonal changes, and even how I feel today is going to determine what happens in the garden. Then, some years none of these things seem to matter a whit. One must approach the tasks at hand with as much knowledge as they can gain and HOPE! It springs eternal after all.

That's my 2 cents!

Barbara

Aimeekitty, you are making this too complicated. If you have two roses, and one gets to about two feet, produces about 5 flowers a season and defoliates several times a year, and the other one gets to about six feet by six feet, produces several hundred flowers at a time, and looks good all year, which one do you want to grow?

It is almost impossible to overstate how poorly most modern roses do here. It's not how HTs do for other people, but how cold climate once-bloomers do in places without enough chill. Most reasonable people are not going to consider them worth growing.

Thanks for the info, Jeri. I'll have to pay more attention to new polyanthas.

I should start with saying that I love cut flowers for the house and my favorite cut flowers are roses,particularly fragrant roses that last a few days. So I come from this angle so to speak to rose gardening. Which, that is gardening, 16 years ago meant no rose gardening at all, just gardening and 3-5 roses maximum for cutting. Well...

Second, the first OGRs I planted based on ARS top ratings were 2 Baronne Prevosts that smelled wonderful but were total blackspot disasters in the humid east coast. My second encounter with OGRs was with Rose de Recht called "Wretched" here with good reason. The third was the wonderfully perfumed blackspot king Comte de Chambord. Compared to these OGRs I could appreciate the clean foliage of Cherry parfait or for the many years clean and strongly perfumed Frederic Mistral, the later one giving me long-stemmed, long lasting cut flowers as well. Or, Colette - flowers looked old fashioned but foliage has been clean and the fragrance is wonderful.

Not till I came to this forum and planted my first Noisettes I have become attached to OGR in my yard though I could appreciate beautiful pictures transmitted from various west coast gardens of OGRs. I have had polys and they do very well in my yard. I never had modern HTS in a row because I always had mixed perennial beds with roses. The difference now is that these very same beds accommodate some smaller (??) teas and Chinas, has had smaller bourbons like SDLM and KPV, and a few Austins, too. I have a separate bed for a few HPs, Portlands and Prosperity that can handle less than full sun. I love my Buff Beauty that is trouble free most of the time though it is a monster. The HM Felicia does blackspot even in full sun - does not stop blooming, loses only a few leaves but it isn't clean. Nor is blackspot free the Noisette Celine Forestier. So even Noisettes aren't created equal. I keep HTs for cutting but I do not replace those that turn out to be primadonnas.

I have a small yard, so I cannot plant teas that will grow to 10x10. I ordered a few teas years ago from a well respected vendor to experiment how well these teas can be kept in bound, and the website indicated them to be 5' tall anyway. However, the roses arrived with very weak roots and didn't make it. The experiment will start over, hopefully with better roses.

There is another factor to teas. My Duchesse de Brabant does not have those large very double flowers that I see on photos coming from the west, except this spring when we had an extended cool but sunny "California-like" period and I was amazed when I looked at my 15 years old DdB - her flowers were much bigger, more double and even the colors deeper and more refined.

As to names, some turn me off but long French names don't charm me; some does not mean anything because I don't know the person the rose was named for. Or, though I admire its flowers, I see no reason why I should be charmed more by a rose named after Cardinal Richelieu than Chartreuse di Parme (of course, I love Stendhal's novels while I am not that much of an admirer of cardinal R's political activities, to mention only one example).

So, you see, I have an eclectic garden and I have mixed feelings about OGRs, partially due to the difficult climate I garden in.

Well...being that I am establishing my garden as we speak and I first got back into roses with HTs, Floribundas, and Austins; i am really taking this all in. I am gravitating now toward trying more OGRS, which really speak to me. I love history as well and a good story behind a solidly performing rose enhances the experience for me a lot.

I think newbies first go to nurseries and learn about what is out there. Well, what is at most nurseries? HTs, Floribundas and modern climbers, with the occasional OGR thrown in. Then I came across some Austins. LOVED them. The shapes, smells, and cupped old fashioned forms - this raised a lot of questions for me. This is how it happened for me. I would go and look at them, be tempted, buy some, read, read, read and read up.

The top issues for me are performance, survival, no spray, form (meaning how it grows) and size (for planning purposes). It's a given that I have to like the bloom first (:-)) Being that I have to put my roses in where they fit (between other plants) and considering shade, height and other requirements, I have to use flexible retraint in how I pick the roses, be they OGRs or other. I have maxed out now on HT's, Floribundas, and am slowing down on Austins, though still love them. I am strongly drawn to OGRs and hope that what I hear about them being easy to take care of is true. Having young children, I don't get as much time as I would like to garden. So sometimes things have to get ignored til later.

So for me, the Austins are what introduced me to OGRs and I am still in the new stages. I loved the contrasts between those and the modern form and was drawn in. I have to literally restrain myself from buying all the OGRs I love because of growth. It's an issue spacewise. It's hard, but I am trying really hard to listen to the more experienced people on these sites.

Having said that, my experience with OGRs consist of the mislabeled La Ville De Bruxelles, and newly planted Paul Neyron, Marchessa Boccella, Zephirine Drouhin, Cels Multiflora and Reine De Violette (which is dying back at a huge rate - don't know why). Also coming soon are: Sophie's Perpetual, Souvenier De La Malmaison, Baronne Prevost, Cornelia, Baron Girod De Lain, Clementina Carboneri. So as you can see, I'm diving in head first with new OGRs that I've never tried before. I'm going to start a separate thread on helping with establishing new OGRs and would appreciate your input.

Stasi

Replacements? In SoCal? Sure. Many Old European OGR's (damask, alba) won't bloom without sufficient chill. So there's not reason to even bother with them. Anything is an improvement.

In general, tho, I grow roses in any class that are disease resistant, graceful in form, and vigorous. None is really a replacement for anything else.

There are no replacements I'm aware of for Tea roses: big, leafy, remontant, heat and sun tolerant and graceful. If you want the flowers, then HT's might be a replacement. I rarely find the plants appealing, although I like the bloom form well enough, except it seems a bit stiff and formal in my wild informal garden. That is easily resolved by planting them in small groups and softening their bare knees with the right companions that soften their lines.

Austins seem to strive to be replacements for Hybrid Perpetuals. The problem in my climate is that so many Austin rust, as do many HP's. I'll grow graceful, floriferous Austins that don't rust or blackspot, but I no longer experiment with them. I won't even try an Austin unless I've seen it grown successfully over several seasons in my climate...in someone else's garden. The HP's I grow, also not a large number, are the healthy few in my climate: Sydonie, Glendora/Joasine Hanet, a found HP called "Jay's Hudson Crimson/Old Town Novato," Baronne Prevost, Ardoisee de Lyon and Arrillaga.

While not technically OGRs, Hybrid Musks have modern replacements usually classed as shrubs. The replacements are slightly smaller and usually rebloom better: Lavender Dream, for example. And there is almost no OGR equivalent to the Polyantha, an excellent, often compact, tidy bloom machine that is nevertheless informal and happy in an informal garden planted out with the perennials.

Species replacemens? A few. Darlow's Enigma, which reblooms modestly in my garden and blooms more prolifically than the multifloras, is one. Nevada and Marguerite Hilling, Golden Wings for Spins.

These selections are all highly climate dependent. In a cold climate with short summer seasons, there is not reason to avoid once bloomers that are hardy and that have a reasonable bloom season. In SoCal, with 12 months of summer, there's every reason to avoid once-bloomers (with a few exceptions among the ginormous ramblers).

Mendocino Rose speaks for me, too. I love them all but I am wowed by the fragrance, the history and especially the variety of the OGRs and I am put off by the inbred poodle problems of so many of the HTs. Like others, I also grow what works best here. I've given up on most Bourbons, much as I love them, and Teas in my winters are risky. I grow lots of rugosas because they are hardy and the deer don't eat them. And right now I am sold on Hybrid Musks. Polys do well for me. Gallicas and Mosses (and their cousin) have been slow starters but are finally coming along. I also have a lot of floribundas for no reason whatsoever. And I am doing my part to keep species and ramblers in production. I have a lot of space so I can grow some things just for the sake of history. Also, I open my garden to the public, so I want there to be some of every kind. Roses are a huge world, not just the HTs one find in the local nursery or the KOs in Home Depot.

berndoodle, what climate are you in?

Could you explain what you mean by this? I don't quite understand.
"In SoCal, with 12 months of summer, there's every reason to avoid once-bloomers (with a few exceptions among the ginormous ramblers)."

Well, I have a mix of everything that grows here in Central West-coast Fla., humidity heaven.... I love Belinda's Dream, she has old-fashioned looking cabbage-blooms, fragrant, gets abt. 4-5 feet by 4-5 feet, and very little BS... I have 6 of her all thru' my beds and she never stops blooming..... also China Doll, polyantha.. she non-stop blooms dainty lttile pink clusters and stays under 2 feet, I use her for a border... also Carefree Beauty, another pink... also Don Juan, big tall deep red smell to die for, kept cut back he never stops blooming..... Bermuda Kathleen keeps those dainty sprays dancing in the breeze... St Patrick blooms constantly bright yellow drop-dead..... Louis Philippe a great bloomer.... Gold Medal, tall yellow, I have 3 of this lady..... Queen Elizabeth another tall lady, for back of the beds, gorgeous pink......Maggie, for a gorgeous deep red..... Fourth of July for a climber that really pops, single red with a yellow center.........Mystic Beauty for a sweet little delicate white-pink cabbage..... Angel Face for a mauve fragrant mid-size.... Double Delight for a red-and-cream fragrant mid-size.... also Clair Matin for a delicate pink-peach climber....Crepuscule for a cream-white-yellow climber, she is next to Fourth-of-july for a contrast.....Tropicana and Brandy and Livin'Easy for a pop of orange.. Ebb Tide, Fragrant Plum, and Wild Blue Yonder for a deep mauve-purple... Scentimental for a bi-color red-and-white..... Joseph's Coat for a orange-yellow climber in the back....Ducher for a delicate white.... and more, more more I can't remember the names.... and Blue Salvia, Purslane, Pentas, and Snapdragons for edging... and Blood Leaf interspersed for short pops of red..... I put the shorter roses in the front, the medium height back of them, and taller behind them, and in the very back the climbers, so there are no empty spots, something is always blooming and lots of color......year-round here in Fla. it never ends.... works for me..... sally

The very special quality of OGSs in my climate, perhaps USDA zone 5-6, is their hardiness. After this terrible winter the gallicas, the albas. the damasks, the centifolias and the species roses have proven their hardiness. Not all of them though, we've had enormous losses in Sweden, from the south to the north. The warm autumn caused the roses not to go dormant in time, then the snow fell which was okay for the lowgrowing roses, most gallicas, and even the floribundas, Extreme and lasting cold, -25°C for weeks, killed all roses above the snowline. We've prided ourselves of our helenae ramblers but most of them are killed to the snowline. It's especially hard for people with show gardens. Many famous gardens are now fields of floribundalike roses cut down to 2 ft. Hopefully most will come back but the oncebloomers are lost for this season, of course.

In my own garden many floribundas, polyanthas and hybrid teas have proven their worth, something I would never have believed before this winter. I have very few of these classes but I've already ordered a few new ones, the HTs Karen Blixen and Salzaquelle and the floribunda Old Port to supplant dead old roses. They look very different from my usual roses but hopefully they will stay if we get another winter like the last. But of course I hope we'll never see another winter with so much snow and cold again.

"In SoCal, with 12 months of summer, there's every reason to avoid once-bloomers (with a few exceptions among the ginormous ramblers)."

*** I can answer that.
In much of SoCal, our bloom season is more or less permanent.

Without significant winter chill, the Northern European once-bloomers generally speaking don't bloom much at all.
There is very little point in growing them for a reward of 6 blooms on a plant that gets smaller and sicker with every passing year.

Instead, we grow "Evergreen" roses, which bloom through the year. Our climate is suited to them.

As I said -- plant the roses (which ever they are )that love YOUR climate.
Not someone else's. YOURS.

Jeri

Mariannese,
I just wanted to comment that it sounds as though we went through the same winter, you with the Swedish version, i.e. MUCH colder than what we experienced, and I with the milder Italian version, but with the same weather pattern, and similar nasty results.
Melissa

I came onto the GW forum originally to find a good lavender hybrid tea rose. I never really knew other roses existed, with the exception of floribundas. After searching around I stumbled on the Austins, drew my breath in as though I had found paradise and began to google like mad. Eventually I found the Antique forum and loved the old fashioned form of the OGRs.

However, many of the roses I would really like to grow are unsuitable for my climate. I love the teas, for example, but can only attempt to grow a few of them. When I check out the zones of the majority (not all) of the antique forum, they are 7 and above.

Also, living in BS-land, it defeats the purpose of growing some of them as they need to be sprayed anyway. I am afraid of letting them defoliate and losing them. Unless you have an enormous property, many of them are also too large.

As a result, I like a variety of classes and I still like to keep a few HTs on hand. Most members of my local Rose Society only grow HTs.

I've never had a true GARDEN - I just have plants on a long balcony. Consequently, I've never had very many roses, and that has been for only a couple of years. Last Fall, I gave away half of those (slow discovery of unhappiness of those roses, also unhappiness of aging body at repotting, etc.). The remaining ones are a Tea, a Polyantha, and an early Hybrid Tea. The Polyantha is here because of sentimental family reasons, the early HT because of intense, unexplained visceral response to it, the Tea because I ADORE Teas, for their grace as well as for their blooms. I loved the ones I let go, but it was as much for their own good as for mine.

But as to what it is about these older roses? I could go on and on, but the short answer is that I fell in love. As Ilsa says to Rick, in "Casablanca", "Just one answer takes care of a whole lot of questions" (fade to kiss)...

Laura

In my eyes, where beauty is the beholder,
Old Garden Roses have beauty in leaf, flower and bush, that many (not all) modern roses often lack,
These "special qualities" are exactly why I grow mostly Old Roses.
If there were a modern rose that had the ultra-healthy, attractive blue-green leaves, and a large golden boss within a blossom of perfect white petals, and had the Alba type fragrance I crave, I might grow it, though modern, along with Alba-Semi-Plena. But it would also have to have a magificent quality that Alba Semi Plena lacks. I've often wondered why A.S.P. isn't used in more breeding programs because of its superb health.
-If Hybrid Tea roses had the leafy growth habit, faster re-bloom and "exquisite delicacy" of bloom style, of the Old Garden Tea roses, I'd choose more than c. 5% H.T.s to grow, but as it is there are no H.T.s that bloom as often as a Tea rose, and fewer H.T.s have the pretty growth habit of a Tea.
-Scotch Roses have a fern like character to their leaflets that I've rarely seen in roses of other classes.
-No other rose class comes close to blooming as often as a China, through such a long bloom season. In January when all the modern rose beds, in a nearby public rose garden are bereft of bloom as well as leaf, I look to the China rose beds where rosebushes are blooming as if it were May.
I do feel fortunate to live in an area where many Old Garden Roses thrive.
Lux.

organic_tosca:
the early HT because of intense, unexplained visceral response to it,

I'm so curious. Which early HT is it? Was your response to it when you saw it in pictures, in person, or both?

bellegallica:

Both. I saw the picture of it in Vintage's catalog and really liked it. I kept thinking about it and eventually bought it. It's 'Betty' ("Vanucci Bicolor") by Dickson, 1905. The real love affair started after it came, though, when it bloomed for the first time. It's rather sedate when it first starts to open, but gets rather blowsy pretty quickly, then lasts... and lasts... and lasts. It's a cream and warm pink blend with yellow in the base, giving it a glow. The bloom on it right now has center petals a slightly darker pink. It's a casual flower, not formal - eventually opens to golden stamens. The foliage is rather different: round, dark green, some recent ones BIG. It's supposed to be disease-resistant, though I've been seeing a little powdery mildew lately - we've been having a cool, wet Spring (May here in Sacramento is usually quite warm and dry). The PM should clear up when the weather settles into its usual pattern. Help Me Find has some photos and some details about it under the tab for member comments. I asked a question about size and was answered by Billy Teabag, one of the group that authored the Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens book. She had some nice and interesting things to say about it.

Laura

I like all kinds of roses I'm a hertic when it comes to some antiques you can keep them. There are some moderns that are dead on gems I just saw Treasure trail bloom in my garden for the first time and I was quite impressed. A modern moss and unique color. Midnight blue is directly opposite Cardinal Richelieu at The NY Botanical Garden and hands down I'll take Midnight Blue ove the more famous antique. Just a matter of taste. Heres a link to Spring bounty NY Botanical, Brooklyn Botanical and my garden