I'm a relatively new rose grower that was, and is, still planning on joining the ARS. I've read all the arguments pro/con and I'm still joining because I believe that change comes from within. Who will be there to replace the "old guard" and give voice to those enjoy growing roses as garden shrubs, pieces of history, wonderful smelling flowers, and objects of beauty? Depending on who you are and what you spend your money on, $50 could be a lot of money. Personally, I've spent $50 dollars on much more fleeting/"dumb" things than a membership to an organization. Would we be having this conversation if the dues cost $10 a year? Just a few months ago, I joined my local rose society. I'm the youngest member there at 34, most members are in their 50s, 60s, and 70s. The leadership of my local rose society fall into the exhibitor camp. The highlight of the society's calendar is the annual rose show they put on. The focus of the pre-show meetings was on exhibition cultural practices (all the pruning advice was for HTs) and preparation/grooming for exhibition. However, I'd say 75% of the society's membership does not exhibit, like myself. The show came and pretty nobody from the society came except the leadership/hardcore exhibitors...the reason? Most of the members, including me, thought our roses weren't "good enough" because we had the strict judging standards drummed into to us. The competition aspect of took precedence over the fact that this was an opportunity to show off flowers to the public. I think the exhibitors were mad because they didn't have other roses for their roses to "smack down" :) The next meeting after the show, the president made a plea to the members to bring roses to the show, no matter what they looked like. She said the public just likes to see roses, they don't care if there's a petal or leaf out of place, or if there's spot. Like Jeri said "Rose Societies SHOULD BE ABOUT ROSES." I'm going to be pushing the idea for more frequent "rose celebrations" and I've been bring bouquets of roses from my garden to each meeting. I have been, and will continue to be a voice at my local society offering a different story about roses other than traditional exhibition HTs. I've planning to approach the society about giving "novice talk" about what I've learned about OGRs, and make people aware of resources such as HMF and GardenWeb, where I've learned so much valuable information. I'm planning to also check out HRF as well, and will spread the word at the local level. You'd be surprised how many people are out there that like roses, but are so bewildered/intimated at the thought of growing them. It seems like for better or worse, ARS is the organization a lot of them have first contact with. There's a lady in my society that "only" has 3 rosebushes, but you can tell she's so eager for advice and information, a lot of which she gets from ARS publications. People think that HTs are the only roses out there for a reason. Throwing one's hands up and walking away is certainly one's choice, but I want to help shape the next generation of rose growers (hoping there is one). Eric

Resin, this is one time where I'm going to have to disagree with the main thrust of your argument: That the authors of this report, in calling the plants they're working with "cedars" have somehow invalidated themselves. I am certain they know that the plant they're working with is Thuja occidentalis. That they call it cedar is simply submitting to the fact that that is what this tree is known as in these parts. State foresters, commercial forestry consultants, hunters, what-have-you, they all call this tree cedar, and if it is a technical paper, than yes, oftentimes, the true botanical identity is stated. It would be a different matter if members of the cedrus genus were present here, but they are not, so no real confusion results. Thuja is not a common name, so not commonly used. Arbor vitae, which is a common name, would tend to conjur images more toward the many cultivars of this plant available in the landscaping trade, which is well outside of the scope of this project, and which are, strictly speaking, different from the species in important ways. Northern white cedar is a long-accepted common name for this species. It means only one kind of tree. Cedar is simply a shortened form of this name. 1p, you're fighting the good fight. You and I will both be manning different flanks of this battle to the bitter end ;^) +oM

Oh, that sound like a perfect spot for one. They do need cool roots in hot zones. I just mulch mine to shade them and plant stuff in front of them while they climb the trellis. Bri I hope things get better for you. I wish I could find someting cool like ground orchids around here. I went to Lowes yesterday to get screws for the greenhouse and didn't even go to garden center. They have absolutely nothing there right now but Christmas trees, poinsettas and pansies, lol.

I've bought quite a few trees during the early summer to plant in the fall. If you like the tree, I would just buy it, Black Gum's are not common nursery stock. Like mentioned above, keep in a filtered sun, or morning sun/afternoon shade spot until you are ready to plant.