In an earlier post I stated: "I feel that you will find that it is very biased against "new blood" getting into critical leadership positions quickly."

I did not expand to explain the by-law requirements for each high office, but another thread is now referring to this point (see especially page 5):

http://www.rosarianscorner.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=6df2d9e6b721673d057b1b003cd20266;act=ST;f=25;t=20125;st=80;entry242727

Here is a link that might be useful: another discussion

Bob Martin, on Rec.gardens.roses about a decade ago declared that the Rose Forum on Garden Web was the dumb leading the dumber. That cost him DH's and my votes. That, combined with Karl's makes the three votes. Those three votes were decisive this year.

Later Bob Martin wrote that the ARS shouldn't be for someone with six pepper plants in the middle of their rose gardens. Well, I had a space that year and among my several hundred roses, I had some pepper plants in the no spray part. My pepper plants were unintentionally insulted.

Then a local district award winner told me that anyone should be able to come to our local society meetings, but they shouldn't become members until they had at least 150 roses and had proven to be serious exhibitors.

About attendance at rose exhibits rather than at juried rose shows: we are active in the Asheville (NC) Blue Ridge Rose society that every spring has an exhibition at the Western North Carolina arboreteum: two days with lots of roses and with talks but no ribbons. This year, well over 1200 people came in and enjoyed the roses. All the members bring roses. Many of the roses aren't perfect. We work together. (I stop one guy from fingerpruning off the interesting hips on my roxburghii every year because he doesn't like hips and I think they are interesting.) It's at the right place (where people who love plants go in summer) at the right time of year. They don't have to come in and look, but they choose to.

Match that audience, juried shows.

"Later Bob Martin wrote that the ARS shouldn't be for someone with six pepper plants in the middle of their rose gardens."

Well, I hope I squeaked by on that one: I have 6 roses growing in my pepper garden.

$25 to HMF + $25 to HRF = total annual expenditure for rose clubs or societies.

I guess my two tomato plants could exclude me too?
I wonder if my butterfly and shade gardens are also a no-no for ARS membership.
While Bob may be a rose "expert", he's certainly lacking in common sense (I hope he's following this.)
What dumb comments to make!
Seems his comments came back to bite him on his Happy Butt!
I believe there is more useful rose growing and culture experience and knowledge on the Rose Forum than there is in any group of ARS exhibitors.
I said useful as opposed to that needed to grow perfect exhibition roses that would drive the average rose grower away. His comments just illustrate the mind set and exclusiveness encouraged by the old guard and further makes my point that things will not change until they lose their influence.

"Frankly I'd like to see competition taken out of rose shows altogether."

*** I was very surprised, a few months back, to read that up through the 1950's (and I think even into the '60's) more rose shows than not in SoCal were non-competitive.
I'm not sure when that changed, and I'm not sure WHY it changed, but I know this . . .
Anyone who has ever enjoyed the Celebration of Old Roses in ElCerrito each May will attest that a non-competitive rose show can draw both "entries" and spectators.
That event, and the Sacramento City Cemetery's April Open Garden are my two favorite events of any sort.

Jeri

As critical as I can be of the ARS, I hate to see people discredited on the Forum. Bob Martin and Jolene, as far as I have heard are very good people.

Often in a position of leadership, (or not a position of leadership) people say things that they do not mean, or they say what they are thinking, and the interpretation is totally out of context.

I don't think we should judge the entire character of a person because of a remark about pepper plants in roses, or a remark about this Forum. I can be pretty defensive about the Forum, but I think we should not put names of people on our Forum.

Whenever we put a person's name on the forum, it shoots out to Google. It especially is not fair if they are not given advanced notice and an opportunity to explain themselves.

Sammy

The comments were still there ten years later and I know this because I captured them two years ago by doing a search.
At one time there was great animosity towards Gardenweb by a group of people who could say no good about this forum.
When some of us tried to stand up for the potential for GW to educate and to reach out to rose growers, the animosity towards Spike Hernandez was really ugly.

Ann, you are one of the most talented wisest people on this forum. When a person visits a forum, he/she should be astute enough to understand what a forum is and how it functions.Nobody should doubt your knowledge. But having said that, the beauty of a forum is that we can all give our opinions, and many of our opinions may be downright wrong, or may be unconventional.

We cannot even try to win people over. If they want to criticize, they can always find an issue to use as an example, and we cannot do anything about it. I have really learned from your information, but those who do not like the freedom of expression on a forum will never like us no matter what.

I have not tried to defend a forum, but I have taught school for years and years, and there is no point in trying to defend our schools to those who dislike us. People get something in their heads and you hear them debate over and over. You cannot change them.

We represent change, and that is overwhelming to some people. I love the diversity that we have here, and we just need to know that many people only want proven facts.

You are one of the many good forumers. I think it is good that those who don't like us have stayed away.

SAmmy

I certainly agree with much of what has been said about this website and the good people who post here to help others. There are many of you, and you are doing good work for the rose. And it's true that there are those "out there" who are against much of what is said here, those who are trying to hold onto a status quo that is being replaced.

At the same time, I hope you will consider the possibility that some on here have outdated views of the American Rose Society and its leadership. While I was on the Board, and since then, there have been a few major exhibitors on the Board and active in leadership of the ARS, but not as many as many of you would believe. I have just been going through in my mind the names of those on the Board to see how many of them are really serious exhibitors. I'm not coming up with any.

Now there are exhibitors, and then there are EXHIBITORS. I do exhibit a little in shows, but the last time I won the Hybrid Tea Queen in a local show was 30 years ago. I mostly exhibit miniatures, and I don't win much there either. That's the case for many of those on the Board. Steve Jones exhibits OGRs and shrubs, and he judges arrangements. Others do much the same, dabbling in exhibiting but not really going all out to win. In fact, the Old Guard that has been mentioned, which I assume is a synonym for EXHIBITORS, really has no one I can think of on the Board at this time. (I oculd be forgetting someone, but I don't think so.)

Regardless of what you might think, it is the Board of Directors that runs the ARS. That is why Karl's Best of Show award was approved in spite of opposition from the EXHIBITORS. That is why you see the magazine changing, in spite of the complaints from the EXHIBITORS that there isn't anything on exhibiting in the magazine anymore. I served on the Board for six years and the Executive Comm. of the Board for five, and I can assure you the Board runs the ARS. The Old Guard, whoever they may be, has very little to say about things anymore. Well, they may say a lot, but they have little influence.

And what's the best way to keep this going? What's the best way to make sure the ARS keeps moving away from an emphasis on big time exhibiting and toward a broader view of rose growing? By having lots of members who believe in the broader view, and lots of people involved with the Board of Directors and the ARS committees who believe in the broader view. If all of you bail out and leave it to the EXHIBITORS, they will eventually gain control again. So leaving the ARS will not solve the problem.

Now before I leave, and I apologize for being so long-winded, let me make it clear I know and like a number of the EXHIBITORS. Bob Martin is really a good guy, and he has done a great deal of work for the ARS. Robbie Tucker does an enormous amount of good for the ARS. (Did you know he arranges for the ARS to get most of their chemicals and fertilizers used at the American Rose Center for free?) Tommy Cairns was ARS President and editor of two editions of Modern Roses. And there are more, people I like and appreciate. Do they have a different view of what's important for the ARS? Yes, at times they do, but I don't think all of us always agree either.

I know these days it seems everyone wants to complain about "them", whether in politics or in our everyday lives. I hope on this Forum we can all focus on doing good for roses and those who love them, and get away from pointing fingers and complaining about others. Okay, 'nuff said. Sermon over.

Considering the amount of money we spend on our rose hobby every year, all the equipment we purchase, and possibly never use, all the ill-informed advice we take and the repercussions it causes, $49 is a mere drop in the bucket. I have been a member of ARS, through thick and thin, for over 40 years, and have come to the conclusion that you get out of an organization exactly what you put into it, no more no less. If you are one of those who chooses not to be a member, that's your privilege, because this still is America where we have choices like this to make. If the poster considers joining the ARS a good deal, that's his right. The choice is yours, people.

Here's the cover and table of contents for the current American Rose magazine. As you can see, it provides plenty of eye candy and is a good candidate for placing on the coffee table in the living room. The articles cover a wide variety of topics, and I'm sure that most people would find it takes more than 10-20 minutes of reading. This beautiful magazine might even be an incentive for joining the ARS and helping this 100 year old organization in its efforts to modernize and attract new membership.

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Seems this thread has ventured from discussing the ARS to attacks on people and EXHIBITORS.

I started growing roses because I liked roses. I started exhibiting because I like the competition and the people. If the goal is to exclude the exhibitors than you can keep the ARS. Take away the shows and what do you have left???? Just a bunch of plants.

With the substantial decline in members and involvement across the county maybe it is time for the board to re-think the direction that they are taking the ARS. I agree with the broader view but do not think that ignoring the exhibitor is the best approach.

Really how much different is the exhibitor from the regular guy that grows roses? At the end of the day we all just have a bunch of plants and the intention is to have the best roses possible, whether for the dinner table or the show table.

regehr
No one has suggested doing away with rose shows or exhibitors. The emphasis for so long was on exhibiting and hybrid teas at the expense of all other types of roses. The key word is "was" not "is". Reading the posts, most complaints are about the past, not what's happening now. There have been many changes and those who haven't noticed, probably are not members and are using the exhibiting thing as an excuse to not join, or were members and are still using that excuse for canceling or not renewing their membership.
The fact is, there are still some of the old guard in power or who sit on various committees. As they retire and become less active, changes that have occured will happen much faster.
Exhibiting and rose shows are important to bring the rose message to the general public. But, the public has to be aware of all the rose types, not just hybrid teas.
Propective exhibitors have to know that any type of rose can win a top award and they have as good a chance as anyone to win.
A society in my district has two of the top exhibitors in the country. One or the other continuiously wins every award, leaving nothing for Mr. or Ms. average rose grower to win. They wonder why interest in their society and attendance at the rose shows is going down.
This year there was only one name by every award including Most Fragrant. That exhibitor couldn't even let anyone else win that award. It's not that they haven't won in the past. Their home is filled with awards and trophys from National, District, and local rose shows.
This is what needs to change.
The rethinking of the board will not happen until that win at all costs mentality is changed. Those who advocate the hybrid tea as the only rose that matters have to step aside and let other rose types share the glory.
I believe when the "Rose" in American "Rose" Society beings to honestly stand for all roses the ARS will turn around and lose that exclusiveness mantra it now carries.
Sure, some are trying to make it happen now, but they're still met with too much resistance.
Even in my own local society, our president thinks a person in not a real rose grower unless he grows lots of hybrid teas and exhibits. I've been president and tryed to emphasize all types. By-laws prevent me from holding that office now and age also is a factor. I do continue to give programs, though. They are all on growing shrub roses, hardy varieties, and easy care types with very little emphasis on spraying.

Karl, you are an inspiration.
Really. You are.
You even inspire cynical old me.

:-)

Jeri

I think Karl nailed it.

This is why I mentioned taking competition out of the equation. It would level the playing field completely.

I love all roses. To suggest that one type is superior to another is simply not acceptable. Roses of all types have their place.

We can all choose to grow those that work in our situation and please us personally.

Elitist attitudes created the schism. In my opinion there will always be that element any time competition is involved.

Karl I appreciate and respect your points, but it makes me sad. I had a long dispute written, but we are not going settle anything here... As long as there are shows I will be there.

Good luck to the ARS

Right on Robert!

Jeri

Karl's response is one of the most sane and insightful commentaries on the subject to date. Nothing at all to be sad about. Go Karl!

Paul Barden

I go to rose shows and enter the compitition. It took me 25 years to win Queen and the only reason I won was due to the absence of our president who grows only exhibition hybrid teas. I grow mostly shrubs and any I enter are picked the morning of the show from those that are available. Aside from a minor brushing away of dirt or a little touch up of the leaves, my roses have to be exhibition ready at the time they are picked or they don't go to the show. I have won Best of Show a number of time and am more pleased with that than winning Queen.
With over 400 bushes, odds are I'll always have a few roses to exhibit at any one time.
Our society is considering holding a Rose Exhibit instead of a Rose Show next year. We've done this in the past with some success.
We'll display roses but have no judging or awards. Members will be available to answer questions and give advice. I'll be running around the displays on my scooter. We'll also have hardy potted roses on display.
Perhaps this is what's needed to entice new members and remove the exclusiveness tag from the ARS?

Many ARS conventions charge non registered members and the general public to view the roses after they're judged.
This seems to be self defeating while it strengthens the public's idea about the exclusiveness of the ARS.

The hard core exhibitors have a wealth of information to share, they just need to channel their competitive edge elsewhere.

BTW, thanks for the acolades but I wish you'd not do that.

I have learned so much from the Garden web---I love all the discussions

There are so many people I respect here----They are all happy to share their wealth of knowledge

I appreciate all of you.

Florence

The last year I belonged to the ARS was 1996. To me it was irrelevant and exhibiting was a joke and I knew more than any of them anyway. Now from the comments on this thread maybe I will give the ARS another chance.

There is bad information here but it gets corrected and the truth wins out. Growing roses is about where you live and the particular challenges you face trying to grow roses... something the rose industry and the ARS didn't understand 15 years ago. For them, everything was about growing certain types of roses under ideal conditions and the concerns of a few obsessive exhibitors. I learned nothing from the ARS but I've learned a lot from this forum.

I had always gotten the impression that only the ARS knew the answers or at least that was what they wanted everyone to think. You couldn't grow roses without their stamp of approval. I thought I had to call a CR for answers for all my questions until I realized they didn't have a clue. They were exhibitors; some didn't even have real rose gardens. The whole thing was a fraud.

The availability of all kinds of information has increased greatly in the past few years. We can all be experts on anything including roses without organizations like the ARS. So now they are trying to be more relavant and since they are trying I'll guess I'll have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Our society is considering holding a Rose Exhibit instead of a Rose Show next year.

*** Apparently, ARS rose societies did this successfully for decades.
(And here, I thought we Old Rose people invented it! )
I'm not sure why they STOPPED doing it.
But why not return to it?

After all . . .
When the public walks in, they neither know nor care whether or not someone has judged the roses.
They just want to see the roses.

(Beside all that -- No Ribbons. No official entry tags. No Judges Lunch. No Trophies. Print your own name tags on card stock. THINK of the money you'll save!)

Jeri

When you hold your non-judged exhibits, where do you hold them to be sure the public sees them? We used to do this when we could hold them in shopping centers (they even paid us a little for the trouble). However, several years ago that changed and now they want us to pay them hundreds of dollasr for the privilege of showing their customers our roses. Where do you hold these exhibitions so you know lots of people will see them? We would probably still be doing it if we could find a suitable place and not some hole in the wall no one ever sees.

Where do you hold these exhibitions so you know lots of people will see them?

*** Whether judged or non-judged, this is a problem, isn't it?

Yep, Shopping Centers used to be a good venue out here, too.
No longer!
They fill their aisle space with vendor carts.
Those, (I gather) bring in substantial revenue.

Few locations equal that public exposure.

Two -- no, three! societies in Southern California have for years held shows in meeting rooms at botanical gardens.
I gather that one of the three lost that site this year. HUGE rental increase.
Another society has used that same site, so . . .

For decades, the Heritage Roses Groups has held its [non-judged] Celebration Of Old Roses at the Community Center in El Cerrito, CA.
This event has become such a tradition, I am hopeful that it is safe. But what, in such times, is REALLY safe?

Pam Greenewald held a terrific HRG event this past spring, at her nursery in Alachua, FL.
It was a roaring success -- so maybe there's a hint of a direction there?

Jeri

Let me see if I understand. If rose competition was eliminated participation would increase and the public would be more likely to attend. ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? If there is no competition and we want the public to attend how about a garden tour? Our society does this and it is a hit. Am I going to cut a bunch of roses to put on display? No, I would be much better off cutting roses and taking to the hospital for those that could really appreciate them.

This is the attitude that thinks that scoring in sports should be eliminated and everyone should come together for a friendly game of kickball. Florida continues to win the National College Football Title, but I do not see schools folding football programs because they can not beat Florida. May I say GO DEVILS!

Reg, As a rose grower and a rose lover, I personally would love to see rose exhibits. If a certain group came together and everyone picked there best flowers for those days I would love it.

zyperiris, that is called a rose show. Maybe rose shows that I have been to are different. I usually pick on Friday and take roses on Saturday to a local show. Others bring their roses as well and we make them look nice and put them on tables so similar roses are together. After we are done we go eat breakfast or help with the judges. Are the judges the problem?

Why must it be a competition for prizes to have validity??? I know very well that some people wouldn't bother to display their roses if there was no possibility of taking home a prize, and that, to me, is completely counter to the (supposed) agenda of "educating the public". :-(

"If a certain group came together and everyone picked their best flowers for those days I would love it."
Followed by a post saying, "that is called a rose show."

Rose Show or Rose exhibit, call it what you want, it's six of one and half dozen of another. If everyone picked their best flowers for those days and exhibited them without judges or awards we'd be showing/exhibiting our roses. To do something like that, and not pick your best roses, would be silly.
One would want to show people their best, not an insect damaged, diseased flower that would make an observer think twice about planting roses.
Our Rose exhibits always presented the best we had. It was easier as there was no pressure to overgroom the roses. They could be exhibited as picked but with a name tag attached for ID.

Phil and Jeri
Our local Mall still does community service displays. Although we haven' been paid for years to hold our show, we still get a prime spot and help from the mall staff by supplying tables, chairs, table covers, and table skirting.
It doesn't cost us anything except our time and getting up a little earlier that day. They even put it on the large sign out front and in their weekly newspaper ad..
We leave a big bouquet of flowers for the office and that seems to satisify them.
Each year I expect them to say we are no longer welcome but so far that's not happened. The local Taltree Arboretum invited us to begin meeting in their facilities in return for advice and spring pruning help in their rose garden. It takes our group all of two hours to prune all their roses. They've let us know if the mall will no longer host our show we are welcome to have it there. Traffic would not be a good but those coming through would be more apt to be interested.

Each year, I send out public service announcements to our local newspapers, radio programs, and TV stations announcing our rose show and rose/garden walk. We invite anyone to enter the show and instruct how long to cut the stems and stage of bloom to enter their roses. The rose walks are handled the same way. I've yet to have anyone other than rose society members enter a show or come to a rose/garden walk as a result of these advertisements. They've been printed and I've heard and watched the programs with the information so I know it's getting out.

It's easy to say it can't be done. Getting it done is a little more difficult.
Perhaps being handicapped and making happen in my garden what many think is impossible due to that handicap has made me an eternal optimist. It's kept me smiling and getting done those things that "can't be done," and seeing the good in things, not always looking for the bad.

Our local Mall still does community service displays. Although we haven' been paid for years to hold our show, we still get a prime spot

*** I wish that were still true here in Southern California, but it's just not.
But -- OK! So Malls aren't an option . . .
There are other places.
Nurseries? They, after all, have an interest in encouraging gardening -- including roses.

Botanical Gardens? Some might be open to this. Others might not. Or might not be affordable. But it's worth asking.

Other ideas? I suspect that Karl's right, and places other than Southern California may be more open to such things.

I'm not against exhibiting -- but it is absolutely true that many people are "turned off" by the idea of competing with their roses. Some people just don't enjoy that. They wouldn't compete with their dog, or their car, or their knitting.
Non-judged exhibitions of roses were common in ARS for decades. Then, there was a change to Judged competitions. Maybe now it's time to explore a change back to non-judged exhibitions -- at least in SOME instances.

In support of that idea, let me say that when participation in judged "Little Rose Shows" at our local societies dropped to almost Zero, we tried switching to a monthly "Celebration of Roses."
Roses are displayed at meetings, divided by classes (just as in a judged rose show, eh?).
Rather than JUDGING, and discussing why some won, and others lost, we began to just discuss the roses. We started asking folks who brought them, to tell the group about the rose -- pro and con.
Participation SOARED. Now, we can rarely discuss all of the roses on the tables -- just the most unfamiliar ones. But after that, when people are drinking lemonade and munching cookies, a lively free-discussion usually swirls around the tables.
So -- what a change! It works. I think it might be a worth-while option for other societies. After all, Rose Societies SHOULD BE ABOUT ROSES.

Jeri Jennings
Coastal Southern California

Jeri and Karl I am a native Californian but live in Seattle now. My kid lives in Indiana..and I can tell you that the malls are different there. Not nearly as busy.

My old memory seems to recall that rose shows in England are different in some fundamental way. Can anyone speak to this?

Well, THESE days, I suppose MOST malls are experiencing reduced traffic. Given that, these locations may be worth re-visiting, even in some parts of California. :-)

Jeri

To me the beauty of roses is a beautiful rose garden...not a room full of roses in test tubes or even vases. And the competitive obsessive compulsiveness has always bothered me. What is the purpose of showing roses at shows or competitions or malls or wherever? Isn't it just showing off? I don't have time for it. A besides I might have at least 100 roses in my garden that could get a blue ribbon at any show but I don't choose to cut them. I like them as they are...on the bush. Roses are just one of many interests and far from one of the most important ones that compete for time. They are for relaxing with after a long day. The work they require to make this all possible is a labor of love. I don't see where competition has to have anything to do with it or why an organization is necessary. And I certainly don't need an organization full of people who think they know it all.

Ann,
Let me say that I am happy to be one of the "dumber" members on GWs forum. I found GW about a year after I bought my first rose and after lurking for a while finally started posting. Involvement on GW was a huge part of my education - an education that you, Karl, Jeri, Paul and others helped provide.
Since I never had an interest in exhibiting I never joined the ARS. When I relocated to Northern CA from Los Angeles my involvement in the Sacramento Cemetery led me to join HRG and HRF. This year I joined the local rose society and have attended a couple meetings. One was a presentation from an exhibitor. Yawn...turned me off. But, later they did have fabulous educational presentations by Baldo and Sue Sim from UC Davis.
I'd be happy to bring in what ever is blooming to a mini-celebration rather than a judged mini-show, but that isn't happening here locally.

I got an ARS magazine when I attended the GROW lecture in NY this year - a lot of advertising and apart from the article on Pam Temple's garden, not much to interest me.

For now HRF, HRG, HMF will continue to have my support.

Janelle

The only thing I've got to say about the Rose shows I've attended is that a person can get real tired of seeing the same old HT's/et al being displayed year after year. I remember when I first started going to these shows 'Touch of Class' was all the rage, and for years at the rose shows it seemed that 40% of the table space was consumed with vases of Touch of Class. The minis/minifloras weren't any better. If the rose shows are geared solely toward exhibition then it places limits on the varieties people are going to bring. How about combining the two. Have a no ribbons table or two where people are encouraged to bring in different varieties of roses that they just like. A good example is Rouge Royale. What a beautiful cut flower. Yet because it is a HT without the tradional HT spiraled center I've never seen it at a rose show. I don't know what the solution is, or if there is a solution to declining membership, but a few new ideas for a couple of years trial couldn't do that much damage I wouldn't think.

To me the beauty of roses is a beautiful rose garden...not a room full of roses in test tubes or even vases. **SNIP** Isn't it just showing off?

*** Naaaahhh . . . Some folks have a competitive "bump," and others don't.
No harm, no foul, either way.

But I think, to flourish in the 21st Century, ARS really has to address all of the different ways of enjoying roses.

That has not, in the past, been its strong point, but that doesn't mean they can't change that.

Just MHO,
Jeri Jennings
Principally of Heritage Roses Groups

henryinct
It's impractical to think one could get the exposure to many people by having them come to yours or my rose garden.
Bringing a blooming bush to a rose exhibition is also impractical unless all our roses are grown in pots.
A Rose Celebration or what ever one calls it would allow the presence of any rose in one place convenient to the public. That could include Rouge Royale.
Like I said above, what's in the past is done. Time to rethink it and go into the future. If we wish to share our love for roses we need to make them available to as many people as possible.
Exhibiting doesn't necessarily mean judging and awards. It can mean just placing the rose in a vase and letting it be seen.
Having said that, at our next local rose society meeting I'm going to suggest we do just that next year. Am hoping it will begin to change the way people think of roses.

at our next local rose society meeting I'm going to suggest we do just that next year. Am hoping it will begin to change the way people think of roses.

*** YES!
And I might note that, doing this doesn't necessarily mean eliminating "conventional" rose shows.

We found, here, that those who became used to sharing roses in vases at meetings were MORE (rather than less) likely to at least experience showing -- or go to a rose show, at least.

It's a matter of expanding the size of the tent, to accommodate more rose-lovers.

Jeri

I'm not shy nor embarrassed about "showing off" my roses. Rose shows and garden tours. If it feels good, do it. If not, don't. I've even done it at non-ARS shows such as the Ventura County Fair. It was a kick seeing all the roses amongst the bales of hay and baskets of vegetables. Live and let live. Thank God we don't live in Afghanistan or Somalia where there is no choice. God bless America!

We can learn about roses through the ARS. We can learn about politics from asking whether $49.00 is a good deal to join the ARS or not.

Some people exhibit & some don't. Some of us work the shows and seldom enter a rose. Few exhibitors walk in and just dump their entries, though. They tend to work before, after and during the shows. Without them, the rose show would cease. Because of them, the rose show exists.

I'm a CR which has nothing to do with a rose show and everything to do with helping people grow better roses. A CR is both a student and a teacher and we're members of the ARS. A CR dedicates many, many hours a year in their community to help with public rose gardens, membership drives, meetings/lectures and general Q&A's, including the internet, and we do this free-of-charge. The American Rose Society has an awesome book for a cheap $10-15.00 called the CR Manual and it is probably the best guidebook for growing roses in multiple climates. It's available to ARS members.

There is also the Handbook to Selecting Roses, another awesome publication available only through the ARS, which lists roses of all classes, a brief description and whether the rose has received a rating, based on ARS-members opinions throughout the country. I've skipped purchasing many roses because enough rosarians from throughout the US let me know that particular rose wasn't worth my $20.00. I've also purchased many other roses because those rosarians gave them high scores.

The American Rose, the bi-monthly magazine of the ARS, continually changes with the wants of the membership. We said 'less HTs' and suddenly we're seeing more information on shrubs. We said that some minis were too big to be classed as minis and they gave us mini-flora. We want to know about new roses coming into commerce, we find many of them listed in the magazine.

For those people who have a gripe about the ARS, they're entitled to their opinion. I know there are lots of people out there who can grow better roses than me but that number drops considerably when we're talking about growing roses in MY climate. The ARS has little satellite organizations throughout the country and those are local rose societies. Annual dues are minimal, about the cost of rosebush in many areas, and you don't have to be an ARS member to join one. You don't have to grow a lot of roses or exhibit or anything... just desire to grow better roses.

Just stop and smell the roses. Doesn't matter what kind of rose, how many petals, what color, class or whether it's been nuked. Enjoy for the sake of enjoyment.

What Kitty said about the county fair and reminded me of a rose friend of mine. She didn't like most of the "in" Hybrid Teas needed to enter the formal rose shows, so she'd just pick a bouquet of roses (beautiful in their own right) and take them to the county fair. There's nothing wrong with being competitive and I don't see why you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the ARS sponsered rose shows. Let there be a trophy table for those who wish to compete, but also have a non competitive table or two for people who just want to show off their pretty roses.

Why do you think you need "in" hybrid teas to enter a rose show? I enter plenty of roses in several different classes in rose shows, and none of them are hybrid teas. We have something like 40 or 50 classes in our local rose shows, and only one regular hort class and maybe a couple of challenge classes require "in" hybrid teas. We have as many classes for miniatures as we do for hybrid teas (exhibition form, spray, open and single), plus their challenge classes. We have three classes for floribundas plus challenge classes, two for shrubs plus challenge classes, three classes for OGRs, classes for climbers, polyanthas, and more.

I wish people would stop thinking that formal rose shows are just for hybrid teas, because it isn't true and hasn't been true for years and years. Bring your pretty roses. There is bound to be a class for them in most shows.

For me it was not the rose show itself, but the excessive amount of time spent in monthly meetings on rose show related topics. Then when non rose show topics were scheduled a number of the rose "showers" skipped the meeting. i.e. the non rose showers sat through the the rose show related topics (and even helped out at the actual shows), but many of the rose showers did not come to non rose show topic meetings.

Phil,
I usually agree with you.
What is the top award at your rose shows? If hybrid tea queen, yours is like most, excluding other types from being the best rose even if it's superior to the HT queen.
In rose shows that have the HT queen as the top prize there is no hope for others entering in other classes to win that top prize.
That's our biggest complaint.
Even the field for all rose growers. Have a Best of Show award and place it as the top award, not buried some place on the award able with the HT queen highlighted and holding the top spot.
Henry's concern has happen at many societies and I've seen it too. During my local rose society presidency I all but stopped programs on exhibiting and had more about rose culture and alternate types. Our only program having to do with exhibiting and rose shows is the one just prior to our rose show. It's done to encourage new members and none exhibitors to get involved in the show, but it's discouraging to them when one or two always take all the top awards.

Phil, I'm not the enemy of Exhibitors or formal rose shows in the slightest. But just the fact that there are 40 or 50 classes of roses that you must know in order to enter your vase full of odds and ends from the rose garden is enough to make alot of people stop in their tracks. There are many of us in the ARS, myself included, who are not competitive and who don't want to spend time on a book of rules geared to ribbon winning. All we might care to do is just show off a few roses every now and then. That's, I think, part of the point of this thread....And it doesn't have to be rose blooms only. How about hips, large thorns and other curiosities. That could be included on the non-competitive table. Or even, horror of horrors, a nice bloom of a HT without a 2 foot stem attached or a spiraled center. I'm not an OGR person, so I'll let them have their own say, but I don't understand the hoopla raised when someone suggests a non-ribboned table with only a few simple rules for the non competitive members to put their flowers on.

I have never been interested in exhibiting my roses, and I would rather grow roses whose best attribute is to look good in a bouquet. So I don't ever exhibit roses, but I do belong to ARS to get the magazine. I have learned alot from it over the years. The annual 'Roses in Reveiw' feature has really helped me to pick out new roses. One thing Exhibition roses have given us is long vase-life characteristics. That has been passed on to other more decorative looking roses.

Even though I don't exhibit, I sometimes go to the local Rose Society meetings, and have learned alot from the lectures. Once, they had Tom Carruth from Weeks Roses there, and he was amazing. I was so impressed that they got him to speak. I'll always remember one thing he said about hybridizing is that the genes for long vase life and the genes for fragrance were hard or impossible to combine in one plant, and that's why there got to be so many scentless roses.

Most of the roses recommended to me by Consulting Rosarians, that are supposed to do well in my area, have been winners.

- Becky

Karl, you are as aware as anyone that the GardenWeb Best of Show award in national shows has only gone to a hybrid tea once over the years. I know it is difficult getting the winner of that award placed in a real place of honor, but we are working on it. I was judging the national in Seattle a few years ago and the show committee was debating where to put the winner. I told them to put it on the highest level of the award table, above the hybrid tea queen, and they did. No one complained that it had that place of honor. Sometimes all it takes is a little encouragement for the show committee and good things happen.

I have judged the local show in Belleville, IL for several years. They have a Best of Show, and I can't remember a hybrid tea ever winning. In all of our local shows the hybrid tea queen is not awarded a special place on the head table. It is just put with all the other winners.

Maryl, we normally have someone assigned to assist new exhibitors in getting their entries ready. If you don't know which class your rose belongs to, they will help you determine it and get you entered. Some of us do put our non-competitive roses out on the tables after the judging to add to the number of roses on the tables. I will check with our non-exhibitors to see if they would like to have a table where they can place roses without having them judged. If they like the idea, we'll probably do it next year. The more roses in the show, the better.

If you asked those of the public who attend our St. Louis show which part they like best, I'm pretty sure they would say the fragrance award. Once we have winnowed down the field to a managable number, we place them on a table near the entrance to the show room and ask the public to vote for the most fragrant. They seem to have a lot of fun burying their noses in those fragrant blooms and discussing which one they think should win. People who might just breeze through the rest of the show always stop for the fragrance award table. If your local show doesn't do this, you should give it a try.

I'm glad there are some who appreciate the many things the ARS does to help rose growers. RIR, the Handbook, the Consulting Rosarian program, the magazine and the special interest bulletins are just some of the many things the ARS does. I'm a life member, a volunteer, and glad of it.

"If you believe the old saying that when neither side likes what you are doing, you probably are almost exactly where you should be, then the magazine is probably doing pretty well." Well said!

I think the rag is improved. It is a good start anyways. I wonder if the average 'Knockout' box store afficionado would be willing to shell out the cost of membership in the ARS. They are a good introduction to roses and it is far too easy to get the fever! There is hope for sure!

Out of 110+ roses (potted roses don't count etc.) I have 4 HTs, OK 5, I lied. Two of them are B/S ridden one cane wonders. Regardless, tonight I am going to graft my first HT roses on to rootstock under expert guidence. Knowledge dosn't hurt. Sounds like fun! I am not sure I am going after Queens, but I am not going to limit myself. I have a perfect Autumn Damask bloom that is just going over. 1-2-3? It is doing quite well on it's own rootstock, however.

I am tired of having only three rose classes to show roses in. I have requested more classes and have been told to shut up and go away. I had three classes! What more did I want? Best of show sounds GREAT! I have heard of it, but never thought to press for it at our local show. Now, I am excited!

Enduring the horse show circuit for years, DW does not allow me to travel outside the area to attend any shows. OK! I admit I am PWED. At least one does not have to stand out in the pouring rain to show one's posies. We did that one year under a tent for a demo.

I, today, became a "Premium" member of the Help Me Find Rose site. I use that all the time. Thanks for reminding me.

I thought I would take the class to become a CR. But, I know squat about HTs. Two members of our club are going for it, so the pressure is off.

I think I will keep up my membership in the ARS. In this economy I would hate to be a straw.

Foghorn Leghorn
International Anti Grass League
Dues 2 cents for a lifetime
membership. Donate it to your local
ASPCA or something. Sorry no rag.
You get what you pay for.

I'm a relatively new rose grower that was, and is, still planning on joining the ARS. I've read all the arguments pro/con and I'm still joining because I believe that change comes from within. Who will be there to replace the "old guard" and give voice to those enjoy growing roses as garden shrubs, pieces of history, wonderful smelling flowers, and objects of beauty?

Depending on who you are and what you spend your money on, $50 could be a lot of money. Personally, I've spent $50 dollars on much more fleeting/"dumb" things than a membership to an organization. Would we be having this conversation if the dues cost $10 a year?

Just a few months ago, I joined my local rose society. I'm the youngest member there at 34, most members are in their 50s, 60s, and 70s. The leadership of my local rose society fall into the exhibitor camp. The highlight of the society's calendar is the annual rose show they put on. The focus of the pre-show meetings was on exhibition cultural practices (all the pruning advice was for HTs) and preparation/grooming for exhibition. However, I'd say 75% of the society's membership does not exhibit, like myself. The show came and pretty nobody from the society came except the leadership/hardcore exhibitors...the reason? Most of the members, including me, thought our roses weren't "good enough" because we had the strict judging standards drummed into to us. The competition aspect of took precedence over the fact that this was an opportunity to show off flowers to the public. I think the exhibitors were mad because they didn't have other roses for their roses to "smack down" :)

The next meeting after the show, the president made a plea to the members to bring roses to the show, no matter what they looked like. She said the public just likes to see roses, they don't care if there's a petal or leaf out of place, or if there's spot. Like Jeri said "Rose Societies SHOULD BE ABOUT ROSES." I'm going to be pushing the idea for more frequent "rose celebrations" and I've been bring bouquets of roses from my garden to each meeting.

I have been, and will continue to be a voice at my local society offering a different story about roses other than traditional exhibition HTs. I've planning to approach the society about giving "novice talk" about what I've learned about OGRs, and make people aware of resources such as HMF and GardenWeb, where I've learned so much valuable information. I'm planning to also check out HRF as well, and will spread the word at the local level.

You'd be surprised how many people are out there that like roses, but are so bewildered/intimated at the thought of growing them. It seems like for better or worse, ARS is the organization a lot of them have first contact with. There's a lady in my society that "only" has 3 rosebushes, but you can tell she's so eager for advice and information, a lot of which she gets from ARS publications. People think that HTs are the only roses out there for a reason. Throwing one's hands up and walking away is certainly one's choice, but I want to help shape the next generation of rose growers (hoping there is one).

Eric