i would NOT ....

even though we think of them as totally dormant.. in theory they probably are not.. presuming the soil is not frozen solid ...

but i would worry about a transplant.. interfering with water uptake..

and then the return of what we z5'ers think of as winter.. with ground freeze.. whipping winds.. under zero temps ... etc ... that time of year when they need to be turgid.. full of water.. not stressed ...

can you do it.. why not..

will you most likely get away with it.. why not ...

would I risk it.. nope..

well, on second thought .. since you have 15 .. do some .. experiment.. let us know ... become the resident expert on this topic ... the one with experience ...

but dont do them all.. just in case ...

now.. upon reread.. this is just about useless .. lol..

ken

The practical answer is, if you can put a shovel in the ground, you can do it.

Te technical answer is that without soil temps of 40 degrees, it makes no difference when you plant, you are still not gonna get any more or less root growth until the soil reaches that temp.

Go ahead and plant; strobiculate is right. Perfectly safe to do so.

Resin

Are you just pumped up and motivated after the Giants win?

Feb is a wild card in my book. Who knows what old man winter is going to roll out. Maybe 10" of snow with 40 MPH wind. IT will be tough to support recent transplants in that. Then once your plant tilts at 45 degrees it will be -10 before you know it and it will be solid in the ground like that until thaw.

Personally I'd wait until mid-March.

Yes, the mild weather is an aberration. All too likely, more typical conditions will return and then you'll have newly transplanted trees with lots of their roots gone, trying to maintain tissue with no uptake from soil moisture.

I'd wait.

+oM

I'm thinking of it as just really, really early spring :-)About 6 weeks earlier than usual.

I'd like to do it now because I have time now, not because it would give them more root growth. In the "true spring" I am completely out of time with everything else that needs doing.

Most of the trees are pretty small, from 2 to 4 feet, so transplanting will take a fair root ball.

And yes the mild weather is an aberration, but the whole winter has been that way, and it just seems it will continue. who knows? But even if harsh weather returns, it would only be for about 6 weeks max. Hard to believe we would have much bad weather in that short amount of time.

I think strobiculate and pineresin have encouraged me to try with about 6 trees and see how it goes. (as per Ken's "recommendation")

Thanks!

If you think it's unlikely that the ground will freeze at root depth, where you are, go ahead and plant them all and get it over with. There shouldn't be any problem unless the ground stays frozen for a while.

Have you dug down the 18 inches or so you'll need to make sure the ground is thawed completely out? Also, even if it has thawed, is it dry enough to work without trashing the soil (clods forming that won't break up til Resin goes of the metric scale)? If the soil is truly workable I would do a few, but, like Ken, I wouldn't risk all of them.

tj

We're in the same neck of the woods; nice to see a fellow Western New Yorker.

With regards to planting now, I personally wouldn't do it myself. Good luck in whatever you decide.

I dug 4 holes, soil is perfectly workable, not frozen, not wet, not clumping. Actually it's better than spring when the soil is unavoidably too wet. (usually from all that snow melt)

Brandon7, I don't understand your comment.
"There shouldn't be any problem unless the ground stays frozen for a while." Why would that cause a problem, when the tree is dormant and that is the usual state of things this time of year?

Ilovemytrees - howdy neighbor! You know what I'm talking about regarding this weather.

the problem with my z5 soil.. is that it is going in and out of solid state ...

i think +om summed up my feelings about relying on theory ...

but i still like the experiment idea ...

besides.. you need the exercise and fresh air.. lol ..

ken

I can just see it now....the ground re-freezes and you have 15 spruce with their root balls pushed up out of the ground like Champagne corks ready to pop.

Smives and Brandon got it right...I guarantee your soil with freeze to the frost line before you know it. But you might luck out and it might not refreeze in Feb in zone 5b...probably not. In the end I bet they will be completely fine.

I can offer nothing of value to this discussion. However I am fascinated by the different challenges those of you in the frequently frozen North face. The ground almost never freezes deep or long enough here to matter. In fact I will likely be planting 1 or 2 Crabapples this weekend. Need to get them in the ground as quickly as possible, so that they get as much root growth as possible before real summer hits.

gottagarden, good luck to you and your spruces.

Arktrees

Gottagarden,

Probably the single biggest problem with planting trees (especially evergreens) in colder climates, where the soil freezes deeply, is that the plants are not able to obtain enough water to compensate for evaporation from leaves and stems. The trees may be dormant, but that doesn't mean they are suspended in time. If the tree cannot replace the water lost from evaporation, it will dry out and die.

Also, in almost all cases, some root growth is occurring during winter months (and especially with newly transplanted trees). When the ground is frozen solid, this cannot occur.

If I had to guess, based on the time of year and your current conditions, I'd guess that it probably won't get and stay too cold this year to cause failure for newly planted trees. BUT, I'm not a weatherman or all that familiar with your local weather, so my guess is a guess based on my perceptions of the likelihood of predictable weather.

GottaG, not sure where in west New York you are but looks like you might be seeing consecutive nights in the low teens even single digits coming up this weekend. If the latter that ground will freeze and likely heave your plants.

Gotta, are these spruce trees presently in the ground-growing somewhere other than where you want them? If so, I'd doubly say don't mess with them until the weather is more assured. If they're growing in the ground, moving them now will destroy most of their roots-regardless how careful you may be-and they will then be forced to try to maintain some kind of moisture stasis without benefit of this functioning root system.

If on the other hand, they are sitting in pots-I couldn't tell from your OP-then planting them now shouldn't be much different-maybe even better-than sitting out in the open in those pots.

A few more details of that sort, and I think we can wrap this one up!

+oM

The trees are currently planted in a field row.

The frost heave I'm not worried about. I have experienced frost heave in the past with small perennials that were planted late. But I've never experienced it with a tree that was planted properly and heavily mulched for its first winter. (of course, I've never planted in Feb either . . . but I have planted in mid Nov, just before freezing soil.)

What you guys are saying about water uptake with reduced roots in frozen soil makes sense. But as long as the temp is going above and below freezing, I would think they'd be able to get water. Of course, I realize this is iffy, and we won't know for sure. It gives me pause.

Whaas, yes, we are expecting frigid temps this weekend, probably the coldest all winter, for 2 days, then forecast is for back to high 30s. weird.

GottaG, to tell you the truth I've gone against conventional wisdom is the past and my plants have prospered. Its a risk but you do what you "gotta" do!

I've planted in late Nov as well but typically the soil freezes and stays frozen. In your case it will freeze, dethaw and then freeze again. Perhaps wait for this cold front to pass and go from there.

I don't know if I understand the freezing soil concerns fully. Even if the ground freezes fully after transplanting why will this change anything? Frozen soil has frozen water and frozen roots, none of which can supply water to the top of the plant..... transplanted or not.

If you feel like you need to do more, I'm thinking shading the transplants from the winter sun with burlap or something similar would provide some slight benefit...... But personally I think they'll be fine come spring.

I agree that frost heaving shouldn't be a problem. Unless you repeatedly freeze and thaw overnight to the depth of the rootball, such as what happens to shallow rooted perennials, you should be fine.

I am with tom, Ken and some others here--risky. OK, if really nice weather continues, they should be fine. But if you get a really hard freeze, with dry very cold winds, goodbye trees. If you can wait, wait--I would say until sometime after march 15, and better April.

When you dig and transplant a tree, the roots are disturbed, even if you take a good root ball. That hinders the water uptake, which continues all winter long with conifers. A hard deep freezing of the ground will stop the water uptake from all but the deepest roots, and it is the deepest roots that have been either cut off or most disturbed.

I have "been there, done that." Never again!

--spruce

I would think you could avoid frost heaving by watering the trees every couple of weeks. We are supposed to water trees in the winter if there isn't a regular cover of snow and if the temps warm up occasionally in the winter. I will be planting my trees on March 16! :)

In my area living Christmas trees are taken out of the house after the holidays and planted outside as a matter of routine. These trees are usually Norway spruce.
If there is a concern of frost heaving in Z 5 you can get around it by mulching, my preference is pine needles.

I've got a very similar quandary as I have 5 White Spruce that must be transplanted as soon as I can. Our winter here in NW Ohio sounds exactly like the OP with temps hovering in the high 30's and low 40's for several days at a time.Still, I'm going to wait until mid to late March as these trees are beautiful and I won't risk losing them no matter how antsy I am.

folks:

The issue is not frost heaving, but having the water uptake of the transplanted trees severely reduced. If you get a freeze that is reasonably deep, and then cold, dry winds, your trees could turn brown and be dead in a day or so. Go to bed one night, they look fine, a day or two later, completely brown. I've had it happen. Of course, this late in the winter, with a pattern of mild weather, you might get away with it. But I thought that once, and then, BAM, an unusually cold spell with just the cold dry winds I am talking about--the first week in March. I lost almost 70% of the trees. One day they looked fine, next time I looked, brown.

Mulching can help, but I would not depend on that--my trees were mulched.

A few of my trees died later--they never broke bud.

--Spruce

I say we keep this thread alive until oh, late March or so. Then, we can tell OP yes-go ahead and plant!

+oM