This issue was briefly mentioned in another thread, (however, the gardener had somewhat different concerns. )

Here are some excerpts from that thread:

"Slitting the rootball in thirds will keep any of the encircling roots from strangling some of the roots later. But undergropund roots generally don't strangle the tree--roots generally graft over themselves."

(Obviously, I've done more than 1/3)

A link was provided to an article that stated:

"At transplant time, a more aggressive approach to root preparation can discover potentially fatal root flaws. Circling roots, J-hooked roots, knotted roots, and other misshapen roots can often be corrected by careful pruning.In this manner itÂs possible to remove those root problems before they threaten the survival of your shrub."

However, the author of the article mentions J roots and knotted roots. I believe that I have J roots and knotted roots. (I had never heard of J roots and knotted roots before)

(Article link: http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Fragile%20roots.pdf)

I did manage to remove part of the bottom hook as circled here:
{{gwi:325676}}

And a picture of the final "spread" of the rootball. (Although the strong woody roots are still pointing "inward", and can't be spread further, there is an open space at the bottom.)

{{gwi:325677}}

I think the topic of J roots, knotted roots, underground roots are important and should be discussed more often. I don't know anything about them. I had always thought that they were a form of girdling which would result in strangulation of the large roots and eventually death of the tree.

I really don't know what the long term effects of them are?
And how aggressive I should be in trying to work with them?

Thank you very much.

The thread reference is linked

Here is a link that might be useful: Slitting rootball

This is unfortunately very common with a lot of nursery stock. Probably what's caused it is that the tree was potbound in a smaller pot and then repotted without any work to untangle the roots. It's more or less a form of J-root.

The two options that I see are 1) take the tree back and get a smaller one that isn't as potbound or 2) plant the tree and hope for the best. A smaller tree could probably catch up to and maybe surpass the tree in the picture within a few years. Bigger trees aren't always better. They often experience more transplant shock and require a longer time period before they become established, and they are more likely to have problems like you see with your tree. It's hard to say weather the root system on your tree would significantly affect future growth. The root doesn't appear to be girdling the rest of the root system (which would be a real problem), so planting it and hoping for the best is not necessarily a bad decision. If it were me, I'd try to get a smaller one with less root problem, but that's not the only reasonable option.

pricklypearsatx,

You were correct in your initial diagnosis. It's a grower problem.

And all the butterflying techniques in the world won't help circling roots buried deeply in the container.

I always examine the roots of a failing tree or shrub. Many times I've found roots circling from the liner stage, when the cutting was being propagated.

It was once explained to me that such things happen "because that kind of shrub grows so fast." They didn't like my suggestion to then change their production habits, and pot on earlier.

One option is to find trees grow in Rootmaker trays/pots or similar products. This should improve the root system and cut back on root problems.

http://www.rootmaker.com/index.php
http://www.rootmaker.com/certifiedgrowers.php

Unfortunately, the use of RootMaker and similar types of pots seems to fall under Jean's category of production habits that are resistant to change. Very few growers seem to use these products. They are more expensive and many growers are just doing the least they can do to make money. Finding a particular type of tree or plant grown in these types of pots might prove difficult.

I can find quite a few wholesalers who sell the trees, but it is more difficult to find retailers who do. Or at least ones near me.

I would trim the circling roots off and plant it. This is a common problem with Q. polymorpha.

Dricha:

Thanks. Sigh of relief.

**************

I agree with everyone else. Finding nursery stock that has been grown properly, such as using root maker etc. is very hard to find. I looked all over San Antonio and then traveled 70 miles.

I could only find two articles on J roots. One article stated it was a "new discovery"...(Yeah right)

I think these are important issues that need to be addressed.

just cut them off ...

below is a picture of how i dig and transplant.. 6 to 8 foot... 5 year old cherry trees ... at the APPROPRIATE time of year .... as you can see.. every root is cut to 12 to 24 inches .... and i dont dig all that carefully to get a long, big taproot.... actually.. in my sand.. with heavy mulch.. there is a good chance in spring .. that i simply pulled the tree 90% of the way out of the earth by hand .. and had to only cut the major tap root ...

proper timing of the planting.. and proper aftercare is imperative ....

what is important in your picture.. is NOT the big old twisted root.... its all the young virile feeder roots ... more than enough to do the job of getting this little plant re-established ...

one reason i prefer mail order of dormant bare root stock.. besides substantial price savings... is the fact that they are pruned severely by the shipper.. and then again by me if necessary ....

IF DONE AT THE EXACT PERFECT TIME FOR YOUR ZONE .... in a method consistent with your soil type.. and with COMPLETE PROPER AFTERCARE .... one single feeder root is nearly good enough to allow a tree to live .... the big whompin root is irrelevant.. other than perhaps as a nursery for new feeder roots ...

and finally .. it is not about planting the stock you just bought as soon as you can ... you collect pots all summer long ... and do NOT plant them until proper planting time in fall/winter.. depending on your zone .... if you are bare rooting and trimming roots in july/august.. because that is when you bought it.. you are severely limiting your odds of success ... such stock should be brought home.. and placed in shade.. so the sun never hits the pots.. and properly watered until PROPER planting time... have you noticed the stress on how things have PROPER timing .... lol

i realize i am being a bit over simplistic in my terms ... but frankly .. it just isnt all that hard to do.. IF YOU CAN GET OVER THE WORRYING PART .....

just cut the big root.. if it dies.. it was the producers fault ... lol

good luck

ken

PS: do look close at the pic.. your tiny plant.. probably has more roots than my big tree .... especially the feeder roots ... and mine lived ... just cut the twisting root off your plant ... perhaps an exaggeration.. lol ...

{{gwi:325678}}

Hill Country Natives is selling rootmaker trees in Leander if you're willing to drive there. The root system in rootmaker products is really that much better than the traditional ways. I've had to dig up and throw away oaks because of no stability at all. They all turned out to have terrible root circling that looked like they had grown in 1g smooth sided container way too long.

Ken:

You did a good job getting those roots spread out. Yeah, mine has a decent amount of feeder roots that are fairly well spaced out. I managed to cut part of that large root, but I'm short on muscle power..LOL Guess I'll have to get my husband to finish the job.

Lou:

Thanks so much!!
I finally got a picture of Q. Polymorpha planted by TXDOT.

Near the 1604/IH10 interchange- planted approx 10 years ago.

{{gwi:325679}}

with heavy mulch.. that is how the roots grow .. in sand ...

i did NOT mean to imply that i had to spread them all out ...

my point was that there should be no worry about SEVER root pruning.. if done at the right time ...

as with anything in life.. if YOU cant do it.. you arent using the proper tool ... if hand shears wont do the job.. move up to a TREE saw .... the right one, for a 20 dollar investment, will saw thru that root in 2 or 3 swipes ... something like the saw in the link below ... i like folding ones.. because i can stick it in my back pocket without scarring myself for life.. lol .. and i can walk around after dinner and prune my brains out ... knockoffs can be found at tractor supply or any place that sells tools ... nothing special about the linked one.. just an example ...

a good tool.. is a lifetime investment.. especially if you foresee the future need of such ...

in re: your plant pic.. i would cut it.. just above the first near 90 degree bend ....

continued luck

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Ken:

Once again, thank you very much. I guess getting the roots completely spread out is not a necessity?

(There is some confusion about how roots under the ground should be spread. Although info is pretty consistent regarding above ground stem/trunk root girdling)

I coincidentally cut exactly where you had recommended, --just above the first 90 degree bend-- a few days ago.

{{gwi:325676}}

Afterwards, I spread the roots out as much as possible and put it in a larger container.

The tree is doing quite well in the shade.

The next step is to gradually expose it to the sun before I plant it.

I also happened to find this PDF from a symposium sponsored by the Forestry Service. An entire conference devoted to tree roots.

Thanks a bunch!

Here is a link that might be useful: Getting the roots right.

Interesting that Whitcomb's work on root growth in the containers over last 20 years wasn't included in that link.

University of Florida has done some research on various types of containers.

I know I've seen Dr. Whitcomb's name somewhere in the UF site in conjunction with his rootmaker technology.

Dr. Gilman referred to Dr. Whitcomb specifically, (positive comments) but, I can't find the article.

Here is a link to UF testing various containers, I have no idea why Dr. Whitcomb's system isn't included in this test.

As to the "Getting the Roots Right" symposium, obviously, there is so much more to learn before actually "Getting the Roots Right".

The participants acknowledged that much more research is needed.

Here is a link that might be useful: UF Container Production Study

Lou:

I see the problem like this: We have a bunch of University Professors who are doing research.

Then, there is the nursery industry.

Then, we have a bunch of growers.

If I can compare Texas to other states, any regulation of any industry is always substandard.

Growers may or may not be aware of new or better technology. (I don't know anything about growers) Or growers may "get away" with substandard techniques.

I know that many trees grown in Texas do not even meet the ANLA (American Nursery Landscape Association)and TNLA (Texas Nursery Landscape Association) standards.

But, who is there to enforce it?

Consumers are probably the best enforcers, as they often return and complain about poor performing shrubs, rosebushes or perennials..but very few consumers, actually have the guts to "bare root" the rootball of a container grown tree.

If they did, it would be a whole different story!!

I am just getting started in tree planting because I'm starting a smallish orchard on my plot. One of my new starts is an Italian Stone Pine (yummiest pine nuts) and I am baffled by the root ball that the (mail-order) nursery implied is perfectly fine. Here are a couple photos, front and back, of the root knot, and I mean knot, just below the soil line. One line then goes on to kink and twist it's way downward. The nursery says trees have a way of coping with this. Kind of an older thread, I know but I gotta try. Thanks in advance for any comments.

GuardinDawg, I would ask for permission to return that plant. They've sent you extremely inferior product, and, if I were you, I wouldn't accept it. If you sent them a picture and they still said that everything looked OK, they are either very dishonest, very ill-informed, or both. Don't let them push this junk on you.

Let us know what happens. It would be interesting to know which nursery you got this from.

Brandon7, thank you very much for the comment. I found their response, which follows, incredible:
"I don’t think
you need to be too concerned about knotted roots or pinched roots on the
hickory or pine tree. Trees do what they need to do to survive in the
confines of a pot. Now that they are liberated and presumably planted
out they can make new roots in every direction. Roots can be untangled,
straightened or pruned. They’re generally quite good at making new roots
as necessary and re-establishing themselves."
I was thinking of asking them, "Which should I do here, untangle, straighten, or prune," because any of the three would be ridiculous and/or impossible. The hickory they refer to is a tiny seedling and its taproot is similar to the root shown in the Side B photo: hit the bottom of the little pot, kinked and circled around. Other than that most of the other ~30 bushes and trees look pretty good. The two malformed rooted plants were potted, the rest were mostly bare root. Granted they wouldn't know what was going on in the potted plants (I guess) but that doesn't mean I have to accept the crappy product, eh? Their response sounds pretty convincing to a newbie like me but the photos...dang. I'll start a dialog with them with the, Which should I do here, 'cuz this looks nuts, question, and go from there. Thanks again for commenting. The nursery is Burnt Ridge Nursery in WA. I live in OR.

Yes, the one conifer is beyond repair. I seldom buy grafted conifers as the root-stocks used usually look like your seedling.

I think you are on the right track Dawg! I like your 'choices' questions, but it may just go right over their heads. It's hard to believe they don't realize there's a problem. Makes one wonder if they can really be that out of touch, or, if they just don't care.

Word on the street is that their response is the norm for them. Ya get 20 trees for the price of 18 elsewhere but two are bogus and, if yer lucky you can get a replacement 'with your next order.' We'll see. Thanks for all the responses!

>It's hard to believe they don't realize there's a problem. Makes one
wonder if they can really be that out of touch, or, if they just don't
care<

You could be talking about most of the industry - pretty much anything woody that has been in a band, liner or 4 inch pot at some point in the production cycle is very likely to end up being offered to the retail public with terrible root deformities right at the base of the stem, where you often can't do anything about it.

Despite being a retailer Burnt Ridge is an actual grower that produces their own finished stock. I have been to their property at least a couple of times, the quality and value of the trees their field growing operation generates can be stunning.

And they have a hillside planted with all manner of chestnut cultivars and other edible theme trees; if they were located in Britain they might be the holders of the National Collection of just the chestnuts alone. So I would keep watching what they offer over the years (catalag seems to have a number of new and interesting items every year), and just keep in mind that - same as elsewhere - there is a tendency for bare-rooted dormant stock to have better roots than potted stock.

Also with mail order in general, because you are not able to inspect the plants before purchase it is a good idea to limit your catalog/internet purchases to those items it appears you really can't get somewhere you are willing or able to travel to yourself.

I've been known to drive as far as the San Diego area to shop plants myself.

In my experience, what GuardinDawg found is on the lower end of typical. And, usually when something like that is found and brought to the nursery's attention, they are more than willing to admit that there's a problem. I don't think that "most of the industry" is that out of touch with poor root systems. Yes, they do put out a lot of garbage, but most won't argue that garbage is really just fine. I'm not at all surprised with what GuardinDawg found, but I am surprised with the nursery's response! Inexcusable, IMO.

I'm on the steep part of the learning curve. I'll send them a note and see what happens. I was looking at ordering a couple more things and I'm thinking that I'd tell them that I'll order from them if they include a replacement (freebie) Pine. If they acquiesce, that will be a tell-tale sign. I'm tricky that way.Again, thanks all.

I don't think that "most of the industry" is that out of touch with
poor root systems. Yes, they do put out a lot of garbage, but most
won't argue that garbage is really just fine.

The problem is pandemic - quality root systems are the exception rather than the rule. Handsome is as handsome does, if it's not usual to think there's no problem why isn't it usual to do a better job?

Embothrium, here's a clue: In this country, it's green in color (at least partly).

For that matter, private landscape contractors in my area stubbornly resist even such basics as: proper depth at planting, removing at a minimum, the nylon twine wrapped around the base of the trunk (in B&B), taking care not to ding up the trunk during handling, allowing the new transplant to retain as much branch/foliage as possible...etc. Not all contractors mind you-there are some great ones-but all too many are still basically in the 1970's if you can believe that. Then again, those who come into contact with projects I oversee definitely do pay attention to all of those details, lol!

+oM

Very interesting discussion here. I'm glad I waited before sending a terse reply to the 'everything is fine' message...though that certainly may yet happen. Now that the weekend is over I'll try to find the right person for more conifer info right here at Oregon St. Univ. Though this unit is a conifer, it is sort of an orchard tree (pine nuts), too, and there are loads of experts in both categories just a few miles down the road. The extension service is an amazing resource. It's all part of the learning experience for me. I'll post what I learn. Thanks all.