hi lux,

i can't identify the rose without a picture but the largest rose i grow that is similar to your description is the bourbon madame de sevigne.

on another subject, i remember you really loved the picture i showed of Phil Edinger's Noisette. the rose is not very happy in my cold part shade garden so if you'd like it i'd be glad to give it a good home. it's still in a pot.

diane

The huge size and the lack of thorns makes me think of 'Paul Neyron' but I think 'Paul Neyron' is usually described as pink, though in some photos it looks closer to red.

This rose is as red as a rose can be, I tried taking a photo of it today but its remarkable hue did not register.
It is a strong and deep carmine red, that matures after a fewe days to then be predominantly carmine-red with violet undertones 90%carmine-red+10% violet, after a few more days it turns to be more violet.
It really is remarkable how when its' sepals are fully down against the pedicle all the bloom petals are red colored but remain folded up in a gigantic globular bud.
Imagine a carmine-red globe artichoke, the huge red rose has a similar silouette in bud and size.
The outer most petals are enormous, larger than any rose I've ever seen.
I'll do a petal count in a couple days when the petals fall off.

Thanks for answering,
Lux.
p.s. bebemarie, thank you very much, but I won't know how many roses I can grow until after I move.

What's the size and habit of the plant? Try and post a pic at least of a flower and stem + leaves even if the bloom color is somewhat off. It's tough to ID without a photo.

Often, red HPs veer toward a deep pink or purple. Nonetheless, there are quite a few that might come close in color, but their size and/or perfume may not necessarily match your rose's superlatives.

However, take a look at the following:

Alfred Colomb, American Beauty, The Black Prince, Captain Hayward, Charles Lefèbvre, Duke of Edinburgh, Eclair, Empereur du Maroc, Fisher Holmes, George Dickson, Général Jacqueminot, Gloire de Bruxelles, Gloire de Ducher, Hugh Dickson, Prince Camille de Rohan, Prince Noir, and Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee.

I wouldn't be surprised if your rose turned out to be a more modern rose, perhaps an HT. Enormous bloom size, true red color with some blueing at the end and strong wafting damask scent sound a lot like Ena Harkness (also as Cl.). However, while Ena's shape is somewhat high-centered, it also tends toward globular, and its blooms are often, but not always nodding. If the plant is happy, the flowers are absolutely enormous without looking clumsy, and the buds can be very 'fat'. I grow the climbing version of Ena Harkness, and our childminder has a large climber of it which perfumes her entire courtyard. This rose produces the biggest blooms I have ever seen, although I have to say that I'm not sure that I've ever seen unopened rose buds bigger than the size of a baseball! Anyway, the related and famous Crimson Glory (also as Cl.), also nodding, would be another option, I think it's perhaps even more globular, i.e. less high-centered. Not sure if their leaves and prickles are a match though. But they've both been around for some 60-70 years.

Hope this helps a litte, but do try and post a pic of your red 'HP' here.

Andrea

Another possibility is my favorite HP Henry Nevard.

Field of Woods is another possibility you might wish to check. I purchased it at Long Ago Roses. The blooms are large and fragrant. If I remember correctly it is a found rose.
Good luck in your search.
Jeannie

Where in Berkeley was it?
You know, Jay Williams found "Hudson Crimson" on Hudson St in either Berkeley or Oakland.
It's a match for Old Town Novato . . .

{{gwi:252681}}

Jeri

The of this ilk you see up here is 'Climbing Etoile de Hollande'. Nurseries never have it, but it is here and there in old yards. The former site of a gas station in the town near here has one hanging on (it has been sprayed with herbicide at least once that I know of).

Don't know if the lack of thorns on the stem of the specimen provided rules 'de Hollande' out, maybe a larger sample would have included them.

Here is a link that might be useful: climbing etoile de holland - Google Search

I have climbing Etoile de Hollande and I would not say that the blooms are huge - average at the best. It is fragrant, but not exceptionally, also it easily opens. It has a bit of purplish tan to the red, as most of the old red roses do, but I can't recall it changing to more purple when aging. Lovely rose, but I would doubt that it is it.

Its' not Etoille de Hollande, or Ena Harkness.
Jeri thanks for posting, it is quite a deeper red than Old Town Novato.
The bloom I'm callilng "Xaviers Huge Red Rose" after the man who brought me the bloom, really is huge, larger than any H.P. or H.T. bud I've ever seen at San Jose Heritage Rose garden or at the vintagegardens home garden.
I hope that I can get another blossom for the Old Rose Celebration, but I doubt it will still be blooming in another 3 weeks.
I also hope to find out where the mother bush is located soon.
It may have some modern rose breeding, there is something about the foliage texture that is a bit smoother than the average H.P..

Petal count:60 large petals
3 petaloids.
I was surprised to see a good number of pollen pellets in the center of all those petals, the color was odd, the lightest ivory, scarcely yellow at all. I wonder if this is from the bud not opening, and the pollen perhaps being immature.

Thanks all,
I am grateful for your suggetions,
Luxrosa

Lux, if it's not blooming for Celebration, is there any hope of getting cuttings at that time?
DH has a good track record on cuttings, and our best bet might be for it to be studied in mulitple locations.
(Note: Not mine! I think we can maybe propagate it, but nothing with 60 petals will ever open here!)

Jeri

I was looking though Rose Notes blog, saw a picture of the unknown rose alike described here and remembered this thread. I am curious if you managed to identify the mysterious rose at the Celebration? :)

Are you sure this rose is antique or at least an older variety?

So, they was an lady wearing a blue cover coat selling porcelain at the Celebration of Roses. She had that vase of gorgeous large 100 year old red roses sitting by the porcelain pieces. What's the chance it is that found rose near her propery? She did not know the name...

Stasi

I think Gregg looked at the 100 years old rose and said it wasn't 100 years old.

Yup, that's what I'd expect. Also of the rose in question. When people say that this or that rose must surely be a 100 years old, it doesn't mean much, they simply probably don't know. It just looks old and mighty and has been there 'forever'. I'd always suspect that such an ancient rosebush is just a generation or two old, 30-60 years perhaps.

However, much more intriguing to me than determining how far one or the other rose has made it into middle-age, is lux's description of that unopened bud of a size bigger than a baseball. I've never ever seen anything like it, certainly not on a rose. So I have to conclude that I really need that fabulous fertilizer with which this plant has clearly been blessed. Now can we find out about that, please?

A.

Thor, perhaps?

Thanks all for names of possible roses.
"Fields of the Woods" is said to be lightly scented and the bloom of Xaviers Rose appears larger.
The bloom shape is different from "Thor". I do not believe it is either of those roses.

-it has a rich and strong damask fragrance, as strong as the most deeply scented red rose I've ever smelled, even more strongly scented than "Etoille de Holland",
-and the bloom is nearly twice as large, as E. de H., and much heavier, with those 60 petals.

If "Xaviers Rose" were green, the massive rosebud would appear in size and shape very similar to a large artichoke in sillouette. It is a most unusual rose and I've never come across any rose even remotely like it in size and weight.

Thanks all, I do feel like we're getting closer to an i.d..

Lux.

Has there been an I.D. made on "Xavier's Huge Red Rose"? It sounds wonderful.

Are you going to post pictures of the giant rosebuds? I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to see them.

Before this one, the biggest I've heard of is 'Great Century' whose flowers can reach 8" across when open. But that's a pale pink, lightly fragrant one, so it can't be the one you're looking to i.d.

I hate to venture a guess but here goes one any way, my first thought is Oklahoma (1964) which is huge, fragrant and can be globular though not always.
www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.105144
www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.111924

A second though is Guinee (1936) which is simular in color, form, and fragrance but smaller.

Here is a link that might be useful: Picture of Oklahoma

Are you going to be able to post photos of this Xavier's rose soon? I am very intrigued.

The mystery rose description seems somewhat like that of the rose, Ascot, though that rose is way too new. You might check out the photos of Ascot on HMF, though. Diane

I'd love to see pictures of that! What a mystery. Very curious.

Just a note on a statement several posts up -- 'Fields of the Wood' has, to my nose, a strong, deep, wonderful old-rose scent. I'd never call it light. On the other hand, I would agree it is not the rose in question here, since the flowers and buds are not particularly large.

I don't have a photo, I didn't own a camera on the month that the man brought me the incredibly large rose blossom.
I've compared it to every thing I've ever seen blooming at vintage gardens home garden and at san jose heritage rose garden, and my journal notes about exceptional roses, and no description or image comes close to it.

From its shape and style of bloom it appears to have a strong H.P. influence.
One blossom has a great weight, for a rose blossom, a hardball baseball came to my mind when it was in my palm.

The little scrap of foliage on the cutting the man brought me appeared somewhat typical for a H.T. but these were only 3 leaflet leaves. I would guess from those traits listed above that it could be a first or second generation Hybrid Tea.
I would think that it would have been bred in a warm climate because it only opens fully in 80+ degree weather
No Identification yet, as of March 9th, 2011.
I would guess that in the modern age since patenting that such a rose would not have a great commercial value, because of the limitation from its requirement of heat to fully open, I've been looking among H.T.s that were introduced between the 1860's through the 1940's for an identification, to begin with.
I've moved since getting the rose blossom and haven't seen the man who owns the rosebush since, but it is still on my mind.

thanks all,
Luxrosa

I haven't read all the entries above, and may be way off base, but what I have heard of the Austin rose, Othello, comes to mind in your description.

This won't be the rose in question as I think it's too small, but wonder if you could confirm for us, if at least this is the colour and shape you refer to, so we have more of an idea.
This rose has all the attributes you mention, except size I would say.

{{gwi:252682}}

I know it's been a while since the last post, but I stumbled across this thread and the first rose that came to mind was an HT called Uncle Joe(sometimes referred to as Toro or El Toro). It's a beautiful red, is jam-packed full of petals and smells wonderful. It has a hard time fully opening unless it gets plenty of sun and plenty of heat. It's got that globular form you mention, and I've never seen a rose quite like it (I actually thought baseball the first time I held one too!). Check it out on HMF.

Here is a link that might be useful: HMF-Uncle Joe

I was thinking Oklahoma too. They say the rose bloom is huge- not the bush, right. Oklahoma is just 50 years old... but if they don't know the age.....?
My Oklahoma puts out some challice shaped blooms and others that nod and unfurl like an artichoke- especially if they are swooning from dryness.

I would add that in the Emeryville, Rockwood, PIedmont, area- I've seen what must be Hyrbird teas (flower shape and uprightness of bush) that look ancient- with huge thick trunks. Plant shape sort of similar to a jade bush. Not real tall (4-5 feet or so).

This post was edited by lola-lemon on Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 18:44

Based solely on the description my best guess would be OKLAHOMA, a Hybrid Tea from 1963. At times the flower form can be very globular and the fragrance is very strong, much stronger than Fields of the Woods or many other red roses. The color description is spot on. Open the url below and take a look at the images and see if they match with what you got.

Here is a link that might be useful: Oklahoma at HelpMeFind Roses

I admit to being left feeling frustrated by this story. It is like reading a fascinating detective novel, only the last chapter is missing.

Hey, I happened to notice this is a bumped thread from a while back. It turns out Luxrosa solved her mystery. Crimson Globe.
Sounds like a lovely rose to own.

Here's here "solved" thread:

Here is a link that might be useful: ID of huge Globular red mystery rose

This post was edited by lola-lemon on Tue, Feb 5, 13 at 0:21

Thanks for that! I am at peace now.
;-)