Okay, I see what you're saying. I missed Albert's part about wanting a cation exchange capacity. Anyway, it's a good value to know in your organic amendment if you're deciding between a couple of choices and increasing nutrient holding capacity is a major concern. As one of the deciding factors, CEC can be one more thing to consider when choosing. To assume that one type of testing has no use because another type of testing is useful is a one-sided approach. That's usually not a good way to address any situation. One should strive to see the whole picture. I do agree that the results of the other tests that you mentioned would be nice to know to get the whole picture, but I was addressing why you would do a chemistry test. (since you asked) When it comes to chemical hazards, I wasn't talking about poisons and herbices. I was talking about salinity, pH, boron, sodium adsorption ratio (SAR) and the like. Are any of those going to be a problem in coffee grounds? Probably not, but it's never a bad idea to test something to ensure that what somebody says you're getting is what you're actually getting. I've had situations where a company sells a contractor "nitrolized fir shavings" only to find dangerous levels of boron because their "shavings" were actually ground-up, recycled, pressure-treated plywood. When it comes to salinity yes, testing just one contributing ion one would be a mistake and all of those nutrients are necessary for plant growth. That's why the lab tested all of them. The ECe, gives the overall salinity and addresses it as a single number to give you an idea of the osmotic potential of the salts when combined. Osmotic potential means that they pull and hang on to water. With enough combined salts, this osmotic potential is great enough that the salts can actually pull water with more force than plant roots can pull the water up. In those cases, salts pull water right out of the roots osmotically. That is where the burn on roots comes from. It depends on which plants you're talking about but for salt sensitive plants, that starts at an ECe of around 3.0 dS/m or so. A lot of stuff will start showing symptoms at 4.0 dS/m or greater. Then you look at specific ions because some (notably sodium) also have "specific toxicity". That means that in addition to the problem of osmotic potential, they are also taken up into the plant and act as a poison. So it is a good idea to look at specific ions in addition to as the overall salinity to get the whole picture. When it comes to balancing those minerals, yes. They are all nutrients and they need to be in balance. However, that will only get you so far. You need the whole picture to really address the issue (Gee, I'm sensing a theme). Let's say you have an ECe of 8.0 dS/m and your plants are burning and you find that your salinity is coming largley from magnesium, which is also at a 2(Mg) to 1(Ca) ratio with calcium. Sure, that ratio should be flipped so that you have a 2(Ca) to 1 (Mg) ratio but adding calcium at that point will also raise your salinity. You'll balance that ratio, but your salinity problem will still kill your plants. A different approach should be considered. The ECe is an important tool to help guide those decisions. I think that the confusion regarding organic material comes down to the definition of the term. Lots of people use the term very loosely to mean that the material in question is derived from something that was once alive. That isn't a good definition to use because, as we see here, it leads to confusion. In the particular case I used as an example, nitrate is considered an inorganic substance because it is the product of the neutralization of an acid (and microbes play a big role here). The acid in this case was ammonium (NH4), which is considered a weak acid because of it's ability to make a solution more acidic as it releases hydrogens. The nitrate is then an inorganic polyatomic (more than one atom) anion (an ion with a negative charge). And like I said before, this stuff happens over and over again with lots of different compounds. As materials break down, all sorts of acid and base neutralizations (that's a big reason why composting usually pushes the reaction of stuff towards neutral) and oxidation reduction reactions, microbial activity and all sorts of other stuff take place, and inorganic compounds are formed along the way. Back to blood meal. The nitrogen is more available in blood meal than in other nitrogen sources. However, if you're broadcasting it, the nitrogen material still needs to break down and work its way into the soil. It happens pretty quickly, but it still takes some time and doesn't happen all at once. Is that a pretty high rate? Sure. Would I go that high? Probably not. But nitrogen does not present that "specific toxicty" problem we were just talking about. It's the osmotic potential of the stuff. If it is placed on top, works its way into the soil over time, and is accompanied with sufficient irrigation to ensure that there is enough water to over-come the osmotic pull of the nitrogen, the roots shouldn't burn. I say that because I've seen similar rates of blood meal used successfully in the field time and again by different individuals and agencies. I've also seen rates like that burn plants when poorly managed. It depends primarily on the competency of the person applying. Again, would I recommend that rate? No, you can trust people to be competent. Is it a tactical nuclear strike on plants every time? No, it can be managed. As I said previously, it isn't too awful high.

Testing

Ah ha! Instead of scrolling the forum list, start typing ...... the kitchen table....in the search bar. It brings it right up, ck kt and post!

Trish, I love it! I feel much better about wandering around the backyard in my robe or jammies. As you can see, I’m in a ratty old robe, right now. I was reaching for a cane of Evelyn to take more pictures this morning, when I slipped with my finger on the camera...... I was about to delete it, and decided it was actually kind of funny. The weather has been perfect for the past two days, overcast and a high of 75F. I like it cooler yet, but I’ll take it! By the weekend, it will be 95F again. A rose that’s stated to grow 6’ 7” and then grew 10’ x 20’ ? Oh, I’d be in trouble! I already have 7 of the 55 gallon black trash bags full of yard waste from just this week! I’d be cutting a Rose back like that constantly, or I’d have no room from anything else. Mel’s Heritage is already that size here. I wouldn’t know what to do with one that grew so large if I wasn’t expecting it. I’m already leery about ‘Pomponella Fairytale’, and hoping I haven’t made a mistake planting that one. I’ve heard it gets pretty big. My Bourbon rose, ‘Comice de Tarn-et-Garonne’ better grow tall quickly, before Pomponella shades it out. Thankfully, Pomponella was planted as a band directly into the ground in March, while Comice de Tarn-et-Garonne was a large specimen, planted in January. Pomponella has cute little pink ball-shaped blooms, but the bugs have been into it. Here’s the pictures I just took of a few more Evelyn blooms. The ones that just opened during this cooler weather are much more peach colored than the earlier pink ones that opened while it was warmer. Those bug chewed buds drive me nuts! I wish I knew of a simple, nontoxic fix! Below is ‘Mystic Beauty’. It’s supposed to be similar to Souvenir de la Malmaison, but opens more easily in damp weather.(Not that damp weather is an issue here.). It’s been amazing all summer. My hydrangea ‘Incrediball’, behind Mystic Beauty turned from white to green so quickly this year. It was just too warm too soon. Tiff, that’s so sad about the potato bugs eating your Zinnias from Annie’s. When I pay $5.95 for a single annual, I expect it to self sow and give me loads of freebies. Aren’t potato bugs those huge nasty looking bugs? I rarely see them here, if ever. I’m mostly having trouble with caterpillars and thrips. I’m happy to hear you’re an Annies fan. Much of my garden is from Annie’s, or descendants from Annie’s plants. I had a hard time resisting their sale over the weekend, but it feels like I just got the last batch from Annie’s planted. Do let me know how the soap works out. SO many blooms are being ruined that I have to do something! Lisa