Around here they only seem to pass them out in summer! Maybe they don't realize some of us compost year round. But I agree it's a very good thing they are doing.

I go up to the counter and say, "I wonder if I can take your coffee grounds off your hands?" They go to the trash can and give me the whole bag. I think they like being deprived of the chore of filling the little silver bags. The only thing I feel guilty about is that sometimes they give me 1/2 full bags, which means they're having to re-line their cans with plastic bags prematurely. I do use most of the bags for my own trash disposal.

I've never gotten grounds from Starbucks, but if it gets the other major coffee dudes to develop a program, I'm in.

You listening Tim Hortons and McDonalds??

Lloyd

I hear you Lloyd. A little over a year ago I was working for TH and even as an employee I had to pull teeth to get their UCGs. And that's after offering to bring in clean buckets every day. They have quite the distance to go in this department!

I just noticed that a word in my answer to this post was underlined and coloured green so checked it out. I wish to inform any and all that I am in no way responsible for this and object to GW using my responses for advertissing purposes. Awe cripes!!! What has this world come to??

New advertising policy tiffy, announcement up at the top. It has a unique look so hopefully it shouldn't get confused with something embedded by a member.

Way of the future I suppose.

Lloyd

I wish my Starbucks sent me home with a "neatly packaged" bag. lol. They throw one open plastic bag in another and tie a sloppy knot at the top.

I look like such a goof almost dragging the bag through there. Most of the time it weighs about as much as me. But I'm strong enough to lift it into my trunk now!

Nevertheless, very kind of them.

Kim

Kim, no you don't want the "neatly packaged" bag. It contains about 1/16 of the grounds you get. I walk right past the tiny silver bags and get the big score behind the counter. I got about 40 lbs. today.

Annpat ..... SAY WHAT? How did you find out about the larger stash behind the counter? Do they not come neatly packaged? Do you come prepared with a bucket to carry them in?

Looks like Dunkin Donuts has a corporate policy somewhat similar to SB. This story tells about a new DD facility that vermicomposts its own coffee grounds and waste. But wonder if a local DD will give UCG to those who come prepared?

scroll to bottom of story for bit about composting their own UCG

Here is a link that might be useful: CSR - Dunkin Donuts

Barb, every Starbucks I've ever been to has a garbage can behind the counter dedicated to coffee grounds. All the grounds go in that can. The employees fill the little silver bags for gardeners from that master trash bag. Years ago I went into a Starbucks and seeing no little bags about, I asked an employee if there were any grounds available. He said, "I can bag some up for you." When I saw him start to fill up the little bag, I said, "I'd take that whole bag if it's agreeable to you." He said, "It's great with me."

Here in Maine, Starbucks does not start putting Grounds for Gardeners out until spring, and from Fall to Spring, the master bag is taken outdoors, in the cold, to the dumpster out back. Believe you me, the employees do not mind being deprived of a trip to the dumpster, not to mention the tedious job of bagging up the grounds. If the little silver bags are there, I'll often leave them for other gardeners and go straight to the counter and say, "Want to get rid of that trash can of coffee grounds?" I also say that if the can isn't full, I can come back later. Having them have to get out plastic bags prematurely and reline the can isn't helpful to them. I almost always get there when the bag is approaching full.

The only downside is that the bag (double bags actually) is often heavy and your job is to get the bag out of Starbucks without spilling grounds. Often the help volunteers to take the bag out for me, but I think too much of that would lead to resentment, so I always decline. If I weren't able, I might accept.

I've never had anyone act put out or annoyed with my approach and a couple of times, someone has said that they appreciate not having to take it out to the dumpster. If you're shy about asking you can point to their grounds' can and say, "Someone told me that if I asked for the large bag of grounds, you might give them to me.

" And that someone would be me!

annpat ....That's your good deed for today! .... how heavy is the larger bag? I'm 'getting on', as they say. If too heavy will ask one of my kids to come with me ....

I no longer get in the customer line, in case that annoys. I go over by the end of the counter where the opening is. The busy cashier may not want to be bothered with me, but another less busy person usually will ask if they can help me.

Oh gosh, I guessed at the 40 lb. thing. I should have known it would come out. Upon reflection, comparing the 50 lbs. of grain bags I often carry, I'm thinking that maybe a full bag weighs about 35 lbs. I didn't get a full bag yesterday. It probably weighed about 25 lbs.

Yes, that is very nice of them, but I am unhappy over all. It's very hard to get used coffee grounds. I call ahead and then I have to call again, because half of the time they don't save them. In San Francisco there is a green bin they can put them in. You realize gardeners don't take them all, but in san mateo they throw them in the trash, so it would be better if they composted all of them somewhere. It's a huge pain to get them to delivery the goods and dumpster diving around here is not feasible. I would gladly pay them if they would be consistent.

Just back from Starbucks!!!

The woman running the place told me they do the grounds thing for gardening in spring because otherwise they aren't picked up. Even here in Louisiana. I told her I compost year round and I would be happy to pick them up. She did not mind saving them for someone but her main concern about saving them was they could not be left in the store overnight. I told her I probably could pick them up a few times a week and asked if I just stopped by if I could get what they had and she said sure. I was thrilled.

Guess I'll be stopping by several times a week on my way home from work and getting what I can.

borderbarb: I tried three local Dunkin Donuts a few years ago (Plymouth, MA area), and none of them would give me UCG. The first one I tried snickered and smirked and seemed to believe I wanted to use the coffee grounds to make coffee to drink. Even though I'd said I wanted the UCG for compost for the garden.

That was the first time I'd ever asked a store for UCG, and it took me about three weeks to get over feeling mortified. The next two DD's understood, but said they weren't allowed to give the stuff away.

I eventually found a local coffee shop on Freecycle. That coffee shop has now gone out of business, but there's finally a Starbucks within a reasonable range, and I'm getting the little foil bags regularly (four today). They seem to put the bags out in a bucket each day but throw them out when their bucket overflows.

Claire

Claire .... it took me forever to get compost-obsessed-enough to have nerve to go to Starbucks ... and they have been SOOOO nice and helpful. I can just imagine how you felt at the DD. But NOW by-gum, it is corporate policy to recycle UCG .... just look them square in the **eye, ask to speak to the manager and in your smarmyest voice tell them that you understand that it is corporate policy. I'll be right behind you [LOL] [**that steely-eye-MOTHER-KNOWS-WHAT-YOU-DID look....my kids claim I could make them feel guilty just with a look .... and I thought I was such a pushover]

Hey guys .... so glad I posted this thread .... have learned a lot.

Hey all. I have 2 starbucks, and one is on the way home from work. The one on the way home from work will sure give me the grounds, the bag behind the counter, but they don't bag theirs up in the silver bags. The other one bags theirs in the silver bags, but it is a little farther away. The people at both stores are very nice, and they do ask if they can help me out of the store with the grounds. They are very interested in my garden project and really, I look foreward to going and getting the grounds. I even buy a coffee once in a while (and the coffee's pretty good too). I think a lot of this program and love getting something for nothing. steve

I found out that one of the baristas at SB had a failed tomato garden, and was nice enough to give me UCGs. So guess who showed up at the end of the season with a big bag of heirloom tomatoes???

I'm so set now. :)

Kim

Our local starbucks puts UCG in heavy-duty trashbags (maybe 25lbs each), tie a knot in the top and places these in a neat wooden container on the back porch. They are available year round. I usually get 3-4 each trip and I don't even go inside! I have probably composted 10 bags of their grounds for every 1 cup I have purchased...:)

Gee. mendopete, can't you get them to drive them over to your house and put them in the bin?

This just about ruined my whole morning.

Annpat, my son swings by Starbucks about once a week and brings them to me when he comes to visit.... It is on the way. He also brought me a pick-up load of fresh kelp after a recent storm. I even get him to turn my piles once in awhile! I think it is payback for the trouble he caused as a teenager.

My best Starbucks haul was about 160 pounds, out of the dumpster of course. In my four years of collecting, I would estimate the nearest Starbucks pitches about 75-90% of their grounds in the dumpster.

In the first year of asking for grounds, I got one day per visit. Then one day they had no bags and I asked if I could look in the dumpster. The person said OK and I found four bags of espresso grounds (wet, no trash) in the dumpster. I never went back into the store, always went directly to the dumpster. Brought Rubbermaid containers and a special tool to grasp the knot securing the bag (if you don't do this the bag breaks most of the time).

Always bring a whisk brush and pan to clean up any messes that I make.

Out here in organic-farming-crazy, eat-local, eco-friendly, coffee country (Pac.NW) Starbucks, Tully's, and some of the other larger chains are the only reliable coffeeshops from which to get grounds. It seems as if many of the smaller ones save all of their grounds for one particular farm, nursery, etc. That said, there still seems to be plenty to go around. I used to be bothered by having the baristas give me partially filled trashbags until I began saving them all and, voila!, I now have plenty of bags handy with which to liberate all those autumn leaves from the non-composters.

Last week I finally went by my local Starbucks to ask about getting used grounds. The staff were really enthusiastic and said it was no problem at all, tell every gardener that I know about them. I took in two clean five gallon pails and they have filled them both every day for me for the last week!

Today the manager stopped me and gave me some mumbo jumbo about not being able to have my clean, bag-lined white pails on his floor. Something about Starbucks policy or local health bylaws. He was unsure of why he was telling me that I could not leave buckets. I gave him my best "whatever is best for you, I just really appreciate your help :-)," and he agreed to keep supplying me, but I was left feeling somewhat uncomfortable. I had heard from some of the counter staff that the new manager was not big on saving grounds for gardeners, so I was not totally surprised.

Starbucks uses these plastic bags to put them in which are bad for the environment. They won't allow a pail because it attracts flies, seriously.Some starbucks are totally horrible and will do anything to discourage you, so you have to like email from the webpage and find the district manager and they will tell them they have to do it. It's a huge hassle. They will try to discourage you by being rude and forgetting to save them. Coffee grounds were not so great for my bins I would have stopped bothering with them a long time ago, but with the grounds my compost is hard as a rock and unuseable. It takes over a year to break down without the grounds. You can get by with lawn clippings, but I took out my lawn to save water.

Re: those heavy plastic bags ... mine are re-used.

1] On my hilly lot, some paths have no soil beneath them...just piled up trimmings, limbs, etc. I cut slits in the bottom and sides of SB silver bag.... fill wil good soil ... dig [gouge]out a space at edge of path and insert bag...I'm growing cauliflower in these bags ... experimental this year... but finding otherwise unusable garden space.

2] Cut 4 or 5 inch 'slices' out of the bags [makes a loop]
Fold strip of newspaper to 2" wide ... lace it down one side, across the bottom and up other side of silver slice. Fill with potting soil. Use for making cuttings or transplanting seedlings. Hold all planting loops in paper box or flat to keep them steady. Watering from below, the newspaper acts as a wick, to carry moisture up. When comes time to transplant, if the newspaper hasn't disintigrated, it can be used to help ease the plant out of pot into ground...really just slip 'ring slice' up and over plant after placing in home.

Anyway ... these are two of my uses ... have quite a few on my garden shelf waiting to be used.

The 5 pounder silver bags are "re-used" since they are the bags that the original coffee came in, I believe, and then closed with a "grounds for your garden" sticker. The plastic bags - well, if we don't take them, they will end up in the landfill or incinerator with the grounds since SB is not going to go without plastic bags to dispose of the wet grounds. By taking them, we can recycle the grounds AND use the plastic bag again, perhaps several times depending on how we use them. I agree with Annpat - if the plastic garbage bag is only partially full, I tell the store person "never mind" and wait for a full bag so they do not need to start a new plastic bag prematurely.

The "dumpster" area of our SB is not easy to get to, but I suspect many bags go in there - so sad!

I don't use Starbucks because I like to support the local independent cafes but after finding out about the US scheme on this forum I wondered if it is running here in the UK. So I contacted them and this is what they said:

"Thank you for contacting Starbucks Coffee Company. I am happy to tell you that we do currently offer a 'Grounds for your Garden' scheme. Using coffee grounds in compost is proving increasingly popular and to encourage this practice, our waste coffee grounds are now available to gardeners.

If your local store does not already offer pre-packed waste coffee grounds, please ask at the counter and the barista will be happy to assist you.

We appreciate you getting in touch and look forward to welcoming you into your local store.
Yours sincerely

Crystall Gluck
Customer Care Specialist "

Now the acid test - will my 'local store' ever have heard of this? We shall have to go and find out ....

(Crystall Gluck - what a brilliant name!)

As a former Starbucks employee, and a current AssMan at another chain coffee place, I can tell you that there *is* a bit of concern regarding buckets of grinds left sitting around.

This isn't a problem, if people come to pick up the buckets.. but can result in a bit of a hassle for the store if they get forgotten for days on end.

A couple of reasons. Space is one. The SB where I worked had virtually NO back room. A hallway with the manager's desk, shelving up to the ceiling, and the sink. There was no room for more than two people back there, let alone extra stuff.

And yes.. that evil dreaded health board. Depending on who you have checking out the premises, there's no reasoning with these people if they see 'garbage' stored under your counters etc. Surprise inspections are a stressful thing, even for a place that knows they're up to code. Having something around that could get a frown from the inspector does get a managers heart racing.

Having a 'fresh' bucket of grinds is usually managable. When you're not scared to open it and show the inspector. No mold, no smell. Just 'Grinds for Gardener Steve'. He'll be by at 4 to get em'. Not so bad. But if they've been sitting there a few days because Steve forgot *again* to pick them up.. that poses a bit of a problem.

SB has gotten around this, by launching their Grounds for Gardeners' program. The grounds are labelled and actually displayed. This helps a great deal.

And people who take a garbage bag, there's no complaint there. Though Im sad to see that most SB in my area now are combining ground garbage with other garbage. When I asked the other day, I was told they didn't do that until the spring. I suggested I just take their ground garbage off their hands, and they told me it was all combined. Boo. They said they only separate them in the warm months around here.

It's disappointing. But it's good to hear that they're not all doing it. I wonder: In the cities that have composting programs. Toronto etc.. does SB and other coffee places have a'grounds bin' that goes? Or are those composting programs not for businesses?

It seems like it would be major corporate 'brownie points' for SB or any business with lots of UCG to make a deal with local community gardens. [separate outdoors closed trash container to hold the grounds 'till community representative can collect] Plenty of Foto-Op moments for print and electronic media ... A lot of people don't know about the benefits of UCG and about the willingness of some businesses to donate. My kids thought I was kidding, 'till they saw my silver bags of grounds.

As far as people not picking them up. They can call the person and remind them. They are supposed to take the phone number. What is more likely is they forget to save them, and I show up and there is none. Then they go would you like us to start saving them? It's too late in the day by then, and then I have to make several trips to Westlake to get them. They don't save them over night. If they charged like maybe five dollars, then people would not forget.

Wow, I am a new composter (just built my bins and have not even filled them yet), so I have only gotten 3 bags of UCG from Starbucks. When my husband was going to Blockbuster (right next door to SB #1)and the deli (across street from SB #2), I called ahead and asked them if I could get their used coffee grounds. All 3 times they had them ready for him and the bags were the double bagged plastic bags. I did not even know they sometimes package them in the little silver bags. I assumed this was the way they always were !

How many UCG can you use in a compost pile ? I read somewhere not more than 25%. My bins are approx 4x4x4 each, so how much of the double bagged bags ? I would assume 16cf or 25%. But they definitely weigh more than leaves, etc, and are more compact, where the leaves have lots of air space, so would that be a good assumption ? Is it 25% by volume or by weight ? I have 1 SB within 1/2 mile of my house and 2 more within 3 miles, so I imagine I could easily be overrun with grounds if I tried. I have enough browns in my yard right now that I could fill my two bins probably 5 times over, but I am scrounging to try to come up with greens. My Food Lion said they would save veggies for me that would otherwise be trashed, but the next person on duty threw them away. I will try again today. My browns are some leaves, lots of pine needles, and lots of dormant brown grass clippings. Technically, not clippings yet, since I haven't mowed them yet, lol. I also have a bunch of brown paper bags I could shred, some cardboard, and I have paper towels we have been saving the last week.

FYI - I just went out and weighed them - they weigh between 15-25 pounds each, so I may not have gotten full bags. I didn't ask them to save them for me, I just called ahead right before I went and took what they had at the time.

FWIW, the SB near my home collects them on request. I call in the morning on a weekend, and by mid afternoon they've got a nice large trashbag full. They said they used to bag them without request, but not enough people took them, so they gave up.

Robertz6: My best Starbucks haul was about 160 pounds, out of the dumpster of course. In my four years of collecting, I would estimate the nearest Starbucks pitches about 75-90% of their grounds in the dumpster.

In the first year of asking for grounds, I got one day per visit. Then one day they had no bags and I asked if I could look in the dumpster. The person said OK and I found four bags of espresso grounds (wet, no trash) in the dumpster. I never went back into the store, always went directly to the dumpster. Brought Rubbermaid containers and a special tool to grasp the knot securing the bag (if you don't do this the bag breaks most of the time).

Always bring a whisk brush and pan to clean up any messes that I make.

Robertz6, I think I asked you before from a similar message you posted last year in the big Starbucks thread, but what is this tool you made to lift the heavy bags out of the dumpster?

How much trash do you have to sort out of the bags mixed with trash? Last week I got a great score of 2 large clear trash bags filled and stacked on the bin that normally holds the foil bagged coffee grounds. One of the bags had some plastic trash and some of the paper cups but are lined with plastic film and a couple metal lids. Not THAT big of a deal but I wouldn't want to have to sort every bag like that especially with multiple bags of UCGs.

Lastly, are there any issues of going to the dumpster area legally? The same day I got the big score of 2 large bags I called ahead another SB and they said they'd save me a bag but they close at 10pm and if I didn't get there in time he'd leave it outside. Well I got there after it closed and I drove around the perimeter and saw no bags of UCGs. I was intimidated to walk into the enclosed dumpster area as it was late and I was worried a cop to appear out of nowhere to bust me for tresspassing or something.

I'm bummed that the two Starbucks I regularly stopped at last year that gave me TONS of grounds in the clear large bags is staffed by new people that have no clue about the UCG program. Both store personnel told me "oh yeah, it is nearly spring, we'll have to start doing that soon". UUgg... Too bad my job got in the way preventing me from stopping regularly on the drive home to grab the UCGs. I'm already missing the old crew at these locations who knew me and automatically bagged up the stuff behind the counter for me.. sometimes allowing me to bring in my cat litter bucket with lid and filling that for me on the spot. I hope to get the new people to respond the same way when I visit. I buy a LOT of tea lemonades from them, so I don't feel like I am robbing them blind of their 'garbage' so much.

Anyone may let the employees know what it is you want (be a cooperative presence rather than an unseen scavenger) for good results in obtaining your goal, and while Starbucks locations often go through a very large volume of coffee, other independent stores should be sourced, as well. (Tea shops are another source, if you know one...full-leaf tea can be useful). My experience is that Starbucks is very welcoming and helpful in providing large quantities of used grounds. It has been common for me to get anywhere from 10 to 30 lbs. at a time, at basically any time I wish, with the only other 'adulterant' being compostable paper filters. My last load was given to me at about 40 lbs. The hockey puck-sized compressed chunks are especially convenient (and less messy) to work with. Bring in a completely clean, ideally new bag or container for them to fill, and be a customer rather than just a user. This will likely help to maintain a useful and normal relationship with people who are interested in your pursuit. Let them know your needs, and they will tend to avoid tossing in plastic, etc., though that may be removed fairly easily. Don't be afraid to ask, and if the employees at one shop don't satisfy your needs, go to a different shop or change your ways. I'm not focusing on any one chain here, but Starbucks' coffee is a common source. Sociability has mutual benefits, and in my immediate area, coffee shops of all sorts are very common, and many employ people who do organic gardening or have interests along those lines. Sunset magazine (I'm not promoting them or any other corporation here) has an online analysis of the nutrient value in the grounds. You may find some locations generally package grounds at certain points in the year, but if you know someone at a shop, then there will be no seasonal limit. Be aware of the employees' other duties, as well (they have many), but many shops will be happy to give you the discarded product, it saves them a weight-filled trip out to their approved dumpster area. Pulling stuff from a dumpster invites both possible legal problems, physical risks, and potential pathogens, and is not necessary. My gardening results using grounds have been excellent.

Here is a link that might be useful: coffee ground average analysis

Thanks, Cornelius, for posting the link to such a useful article on the composition of UCGs. I also agree that sociability and showing some understanding of others' needs goes a long way to building a mutually satisfying relationship...

After reading about their corporate commitment to give grounds away, I called my local Starbucks ahead of time, spoke with the manager and introduced myself. I work across the street two days a week and we agreed that I would bring in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid, in the morning and pick it up at the end of the day. I went to a local paint shop that supplies contractors (Sherwin-Williams) and they happily sold me 3 super solid plain grey 5 gallon buckets with very tight fitting lids for $3.50 CAD each (this could be a problem if closed by accident by SB people as they have to be pried open with a screwdriver... so far, I have just kept the lids in my car and no-one at SB has asked for one). I drop off the bucket in the morning and pick it up on my way home after work. People are friendly, even excited about seeing the grounds go to good use and usually offer to help me carry it out, which I decline. I want this to be easy as pie and a full bucket weighs about 30 lbs I think, so quite manageable for me to carry.

It takes about 10 minutes total to make two stops and this makes it clear that they won't have grounds in the shop overnight. So far, I'm getting 5 gallons a day and I think I could probably leave two buckets if I wanted to. I bought some green spray paint and made a stencil of a leafy plant and sprayed it on the sides of the buckets just as a visual reminder.

Right now I'm dumping the UCGs in a pile next to my woodshed (I live just outside the city) and when the snow goes, I plan to build progressive compost bins using free skids and coat hangers and start turning into a compost whacko! Now if I could only convince my husband about the Nubian goats...

We've been hauling a five gallon bucket from our local Starbucks twice weekly for over 5 years. That amounts to well over 10 TONS of waste that'd otherwise wind up in a landfill.

The buckets are plastic with a "Gamma Seal Lid" which makes them easy to use ... and completely air-tight. We are scrupulous in exchanging the buckets on schedule. We also "tip" the employees who generously collect the grounds for us.

Over the years, various difficulties have arisen. The major difficulty is the rapid "turn-over" of personnel. We just get one crew "trained" when newbies appear with blank looks when we arrive.

Some Starbucks supervisory folks and local "health" officials looking for minute "problems" have raised "issues" (I am a physician once worked for a county health department so I know how the system "works.") We've managed to overcome all objections.

Support from local employees has ranged from one manager who had the employees come to her home to enjoy a meal based on the vegetables we'd been providing to an "eye-roller" greeting us with little enthusiasm.

Just hang in there and remain unfailingly pleasant.

It has worked for us.

I guess patience is the key then. I love the feeling when you are known and get the VIP treatment with all the grounds you need, and then a total 180 when new employees replace the ones you are familiar with. Daunting task, but I am not giving up.

My [non-coffee-using] sister just STRONGLY HINTED that she wants some SB UCG for her birthday next week.[for her tomato patch] Which gives me an idea for other gifting occasions. How about a gift cert. to SB for my kin with an understanding that they will bring me a bag or two of UCG? I know that giving a gift with ulterior motive is frowned upon .... but .....[rationalizing] the giftee will get a pleasant outing -- SB will get a little payback for all the freebies ... and I'll get more UCG. [sly grin]

Borderbarb - what would Dear Abby think of that?

Hmmmm.... I think of Abby as a city girl, so she might not understand the "practical is beautiful" mind-set of we country girls. .... Now, be advised, that my sister will get more than UCG for her birthday, so this is not a total cheap-out. But I'd bet that if any of you know an older person who may not get out as often as he/she used to, that they might welcome your passing on some UCG freebies. "Pay it foreward" so to speak .... :)

I have been having poor results getting UCGs lately, but I walked in to Starbucks today, too embarrassed to ask for anymore, and the manager acually asked ME if I wanted any. She said she had "about 8 million tons of them" saved. I really almost teared up. :)

It didn't turn out to be quite that much, but a good sized bag, and a nice barista even offered to carry them out for me! Yay!

Kim

I am in LOVE with Starbucks! I just started to get their coffee grounds, and they must have given me about 40 pounds today. I've never seen such a haul of free goods!

Love this thread, really enjoyed the posts.
I am wondering what would cause UCG to be hard as a rock.
My chaff,ground coffee & whole bean coffee waste is 12-18 inches deep in a 120ft X 100ft & I can dig it up with my bare hand.
Bare hands in a mix that has been on the ground for over 4 months, with out turning, added water or any other N:C ratio, to break it down the coffee waste.

So good to hear about all the people making use of used coffee grounds. I've been working with offices and the non Starbucks cafes for about a year, to provide their grounds to customers, with very good results. My site has been documenting the heavy use of used coffee grounds in a normal suburban garden, so stop on by for new ideas or to contribute your own experiences. Could always use some extra hands to put a name to what we are doing.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Ground to Ground site