...should also have mentioned: I'm projecting that sun scald will be a problem because Kim had said it was exacerbated by drought.

Nate

Nate, sun scald is a problem in most plants in inland areas. Evergreens do it, fruit tree, particularly citrus, many shrubs, roses, you name it. We have the pest here, Flat Head Apple Borer which can outright kill many plants, including roses. They attack sunburned canes, laying eggs which hatch into the maggots which then tunnel into the canes and eat the cambium layer until they girdle the plant, killing it. I lost many roses in my old Newhall garden to them before I learned what the cause was.

Water stress does make it worse, but it's the intensity of our sun and level of our heat which cause it. The best ways to prevent it are to only grow densely foliaged plants; maintain good cultural practices to maintain all the foliage cover possible on the plant; paint the trunks with white wash, like the citrus trunk paint used in citrus groves. It reflects the heat and light, reducing the potential for sun scald.

If you're intending upon growing roses without irrigation, you should definitely grow many of the found roses which have survived without it, even though they have survived in climates with quite a bit more rain and water retention than exists naturally where you are; amend the soil greatly to hold more water and provide good drainage, and mulch heavily. Adding taller plants to help provide some shade will help, too, as long as their root systems aren't too invasive and compete with the roses. Kim

Just a FYI for folks with humidity. Sun Scald damage can happen rarely in the east, as well. I've had it on some Hybrid Teas. The borers that Kim mentions aren't here, though, so the canes can continue, even if only healthy on their northern sides.

Thank you Ann. I should also add that roses with softer pith are more susceptible to sun scald than woodier, harder pith types. One of the things the "Masterpiece" series indicated was soft pith, and my experience with the ones I've grown here support that by how easily they scalded.

Personally, if I were planning a landscape which was to support itself for extended periods of time without irrigation, roses wouldn't be high on my list of included plant types. There are too many more suitable, colorful plants for these climates which don't require the water or maintenance other than roses. Perhaps, position the roses where a bit more water can be applied, using the plants more suitable for xeriscaping where little to no water is going to be supplied. Don't get me wrong, I AM a rose nut and I use and grow them whenever, wherever suitable, but why plant something in less than suitable conditions if you don't have to? Keep the plant where it's happier and it will present you with far fewer issues to contend with. Kim

Thanks much Kim for your pointers. I based my tea rose drought garden idea on testimony from the Italian Riviera (near Genoa, see Bennet, J. 1889. Pages 551-552 in: Gardeners chronicle & new horticulturist, Volume 1, found in Google search) and Adelaide ( Trevor Nottle in Plants for a Changing Climate). Both of these gardeners let their roses go dry in the summer (no watering). Both climates are however more moderate than Pomona.

I think the concept would be successful albeit restricted to deep soils, away from tree roots, away from reflected heat etc. My own personal experience was of an abandoned garden in Pasadena where floribundas even managed to flower in early fall!!

Thanks for your help! Nate

We do find that sun scald does far less damage on bushy Chinas with lots of leaves. They thrive where HTs and many less-foliaged Shrubs fail.

Jeri

Jeri I think if the Chinas were grown with no irrigation they would defoliate, so...back to borers and dried up roses.

I would propose other defenses against sunscald and associated borers like spraying with plant sun screens like Purshade or using Surround WP crop protectant which is made of kaolin clay and forms a barrier film against sunscald. No I'm not getting kickbacks from the companies! And consider, using techniques like this is no less unnatural to our area than watering in summer. I'll post here after I know more.

I think, to grow roses in dry conditions, it would be smart to site them where they had, say, afternoon shade, or all-day-dappled shade.

I'd suggest that any roses with "bare legs" could be helped by companion-planting around them with things like dwarf lavenders, or some of the lower-growing salvias -- anything like that.

I don't think you could plant them out in the open, in full, day-long sun, AND water-deprive them, and expect them to make it. Not many of them, anyhow.

Jeri

Hi Nate
I do some designing work, along with general maintenance and also landscaping. One of the harsher truths has been that just about all customers will be less likely to be as devoted to plant care as you would be yourself. Over the years, I have watched many plants which are either rare, unusual or exotic in some way, diminish unto death. I now never, unless begged, add plants to a design which are going to require anything other than basic care and attention and are appropriate for the climate and conditions, as well as the inclinations and skills of the customers. Surely there are better plants than roses, which do require water, no matter what anyone says, until they are fully established. Look at the pallette of natives and subtropicals you have to hand. Dealing with other people's gardens, more than ever, the premise of right plant, right place applies.

I appreciate your advice Campanula. I also put a pretty heavy filter on what plants I put in for my clients. Many times I refuse to put in plants that are even considered to be low maintenance because of some specific problem, e. g., self-sowing Lavenders. The specific problem with this plant is that it would be allowed by client/gardener to spread at will and seed into other plants because it's a "flower" not a "weed". I'm used to anticipating these sorts of problems, and although I dont always know about each plant in enough detail I always search out info.

And Ive already been humbled by sun scald!! that's why I paid so much attention when I came across it on one of Kim's posts.

As Jeri may have picked up I am trying to develop an unusual design style. I call it "winter-green, summer shape" which uses plants that leaf out upon the fall rains and go dormant upon the summer drought, to leave a silhouette of bare branches. I would use roses as an adjunct in this kind of design...they dont really fit the criteria of "summer shape" completely.

For a typical residential client it would be inconceivable to put in this kind of a garden. I'm trying to collect an arsenal of information so that when the oppurtunity strikes for an unusual design I know what to do. Based on what I've learned from experienced rosarians here, I wouldnt put roses in full exposure in this kind of design. It is still useful to know what to do about sunscald though, just in case its a problem.

Another thing that I can bet on is that it's the common knowledge that roses need more care than most other plants (whether or not that's always true), so I would be able to check in with the client and have them take me seriously in considering whether or not to include them.

Sorry Ive rambled so much. In collecting this information I'm chasing a dream which may be realized in an unusual way, as in a community garden, or a demonstration garden for a water district, etc

Thanks to all of you for your input!

Nate, I can picture what you're wanting to create and it's something I also find very desirable and beautiful. I sincerely don't feel the types of roses you're seeking to include are suitable. These will go "dormant" with lack of water, but not as successfully as true desert plants.

You honestly need to take close looks at R. Californica, Stellata, perhaps Minutifolia and others which can sustain themselves in summer dormancy without water. They won't look like "roses" to most clients, but they're far more suited to successful summer dormancy than Teas and Chinas. From experience, the species can experience sun scald and borers, but no where near as easily nor as extensively as Teas and Chinas.

The species have evolved in the type of climate you deal with, the Chinese roses haven't and aren't as suited to endure those conditions. The species will also look more suited to the other plant types you'll be using for those conditions than the Chinese roses will. Kim

Kim I thank you for your concern/interest but I have been consistently surprised by the resilience of some of my study species eg, Strelitzia reginae which as long as not in a harsh exposure needs no water after establishment,at least locally, and Crinum moorei one of the most tropical looking plants (and native to bogs) is very dry tolerant, living on rain only, as long as in shade and not too next to trees.

So Ive learned to keep an open mind. Regarding the Chinese roses Ive found testimony like this: Gertrude Jekyll, speaking of gardens on the French Riviera, says "Tea Roses, which not only bear but enjoy the summer heat and drought, flowering freely in November and December after the autumn rains and pruning". My understanding is that 'Safrano' was grown commercially there as a cut flower crop under ambient rainfall. And the original species Rosa gigantea, it must not be forgotten, is from seasonally dry forest. Based on this information I'm willing to consider that they can be grown in very dry conditions.

I think you are right that chinese roses dont "go" with many of the xeric species but I'm a reductionist designer anyway. That is, I dont think roses "go" with most other woody plants, particularly the ones with fancy double flowers. I would always put them in a separate area carefully combined with garden flowers that would complement them, rather than other shrubs. If you search long enoough eventually you will find something that fits. Iris unguicularis which blooms from Oct-Mar, is very dry growing but like the Tea rose does not look like a desert plant.It also would do well under dappled shade.

So I believe our differences are actually semantic. I am actually not considering tea roses in combination with Acacia redolens or Salvia clevelandii because they dont fit aesthetically together.

And consider another irony...a native plant that is one of my study species, that can grow in very dry conditions in summer, but that dislikes harsh sun...Ribes malvaceum. It may actually have similar environmental tolerances to the roses. And it looks green, not desert-like, and its down-hanging tassels of pink flowers may actually be a good complement to some of the chinese roses like 'Isabella Sprunt'.

In my opinion there isn't any one "look" that a very dry garden necessarily has, especially considering the mediterranean winter growers. In the study garden I put in on campus at Cal Poly Pomona the plants, especially Pelargonium echinatum and Withania aristata, look very green in winter, rather like a traditional water guzzling plant. In summer of course they drop their leaves and look much different.

...so Kim, Jeri, Campanula et al I hope you understand my outlook. I'm not going to take too much of a risk with a rose garden design. Maybe the next step is to do something like an agricultural trial, which acknowledges the uncertainty of my proposition by looking at no irrigation, monthly irrigation, and biweekly irrigation; sunscald susceptibility; efficacy of Purshade sunscreen, etc.

Thank you all for showing concern,

Nate

pics, pics, pics then, Nate (a plea from a totally crappy photographer) c'mon, inspire us. I particularly am interested in hearing about new design ideas as I am sick, sick, sick of the 'grow your own' craze sweeping the UK. Back to Dig for Victory and all that. Oh yeah, I am bored with prairies and meadows and the ubiquitous Piet Oudolf too. I really like the idea of wintergreens (and am on a one woman crusade to reinvent conifers after the dark days of the 70s).

Another thing Kim...Rosa gigantea is a forest liana, makes sense that its trunk would be susceptible to sunburn. ??What I would do is try to come up with a design that gave the trunk shade, as in a series of east-west oriented panels (which provide shade from the sun's angle) where shrubs like 'Safrano' 'Madfame Lambard etc were trained in flat. ?Could look nice. Higher in maintenance than a standard rose garden though.

I love Rosa minutifolia but it's not "it"!!! I'm discussing using plants as symbols of seasonal change which in my opinion means they would have to resemble the archetype, with full, large flowers. What I want is for rose breeders to create such hybrids with Rosa minutifolia (HINT HINT)!!!!! I couldnt tell if the floribunda hybrids of Rosa persica people are developing now showed any of the desert characteristics of the species, the plants looked normal to me exc/ for the eyepaint. Nate

Nate,

I was thinking about your project last night (my bedside table is usually a pile of gardening books)

I love California natives and most springs spend time in the back country looking for flowers. Some have such a short season or need their soil so undisturbed/unwatered/fertilized etc that enjoying them in their surroundings seems to be the best way. I also love the fall colors that we do get in California.

Now the big question, how do we bring those natives to our own space? And are we tricking mother nature in trying to grow some of them in our yards? When out on those back roads, is interesting to see where they survive and where they are not.

Maybe spending some time studying how you can create some micro climate zones or altering them to allow the plants you want might give some insight on how you can add plants like roses to this mix. Of course you will have to have the right roses, but maybe the use of hardscape to harvest water or protect it from evaporation, Large rocks placed to both shade the roots and collect condensation could be considered. The right trees to offer some dappled shade at the right times.

And there is always that balance between the level of maintenance needed and the education of the ones left to do that maintenance. Here in SoCal it seems that the neatness factor is pretty high as well-everything needed to look magazine cover ready. Educating the person maintaining the garden is vital.

Also, what about the utility of the garden? Should adding a food source be considered? (for people)

No easy answers.

I"m no expert about sun scald and all this other stuff,�

but I think some more desert-y plants like Salvia clevelandii look quite lovely with double roses. I think some salvias have the airy look of lavender (which is classically used in english cottage gardens of course).
I dunno, I can't grow some things that require less extreme heat and require more water� but there are other things that are lovely that do a lot better out here like salvias and penstemons and guara, etc�

I love that you're trying to do some different stuff though! I get so tired of designers and books pushing deserty-looking or Mediterranean gardens for california. What if you don't like that style? There are other styles, and they can be done with plants that work well in california and in extreme areas. (perhaps with more water for certain things than you're talking about,� but yeah.)

I do think your idea of doing a plant test would be great, to see what they'd be able to withstand, but it'd require that you have plants that are relatively established, because wouldn't a 4 year old rose be much more tolerant to drought than a baby rose band�
and then also you'd want several different conditions to test with (varying shade, etc) but it'd be interesting to see which varieties of ones that are typically recommended as drought tolerant, are able to survive under really extreme conditions.

Ingrid on these forums has some extreme conditions with rocks reflecting heat on her inland hot socal area, you could look at some of her posts, too, about what survived and what didn't, though it might be best if she just did an updated response to you here, as perhaps time has changed her mind.

Campanula did try to post pics this morning but there was some problem with the server, I'll try again though.

Kippy you hit what I am trying to do on the head!!! Directing rainwater would have to be standard in this kind of design. Microsite differences are fundamental to how natives establish in habitat. It seems like alot of habitat variables come down to water availability, like aspect, soil texture, proximity to running water etc

Thanks for tips aimeekitty I think I would have to wait to test resilience of the roses until they were big, 3 years old or something like that. Which means it would definitely be a long term project. RE Ingrid, she just answered another one of my posts and told me what I didnt want to hear about drought resistance of tea roses. OH WELL!! Nate

Green -- Ingrid's conditions appear to be extreme.

I don't think you could take her experiences as typical.

Jeri

That's raingreen, pal!! Thanks for the tip. Nate