Roseseek LOOK!!!
gagalzone8
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Alana8aSC
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Question for Kim/Roseseek about Super Jane... other colors?
Comments (12)Good morning KM, thanks! We NEEDED that rain, and still need another two or three more like it. You've gotten significantly more this year than So Cal has. You're welcome! Werner is a poly and flowers repeatedly all year here. He is strongly multiflora (as are virtually all roses of his coloring) so chlorosis issues may raise their ugly heads if not circumvented. He's also quite fertile so hips will form from every flower, requiring dead heading. Werner doesn't "climb", but arches or mounds, which may be able to be massaged into the type of shape you have in mind. Pictures can be quite deceiving, which is why I wanted to make sure you had an idea how large SJ could get. Mostly she's thornless, but as with many which share the trait, occasionally wood is formed which demonstrates the abilty to be prickly. Her sisters have, so far, not demonstrated that ability, oddly enough. A number of my seedlings are listed on HMF under my Breeder Page. They have to have "hung around" for a long time or have demonstrated something amazing (at least to me!) about themselves before I list them there. Mr. Moore has a Breeder Page there, too. To access the Breeder Pages, click on the Breeder tab on the left menu, then enter the last name of the person you seek and search. Mr. Moore created a number of roses which were very low prickle count to prickle free. One of the benefits of using Little Darling is how easily she reduced or eliminated the prickle load. Her daughter, 1-72-1, was one of his favorite breeders and threw many quite smooth 'babies'. Because he wanted people to pick up and handle his minis, he came to appreciate the lack of prickles. It is a trait I've always appreciated and commented on frequently we he would walk me through the breeding houses. It appeared because of my "harping on" smooth canes, he came to appreciate it more. While I've thankfully not had infections due to prickles, I have closely resembled special effects from gore-horror films on many occasions and it isn't 'fun'. Lack of prickles is a trait I strive for and value in seedlings. Wouldn't it be wonderful to offer a line of totally prickle free roses so people with small children, or those who resist roses because of the prickles could comfortably, safely enjoy them? It's the wrong color for your request, but Mr. Moore's Softee may work for what you want. He never promoted this rose because he felt it rather too difficult to produce in quantity. It's a very nice little rose, but ease of propagation was one of his prime goals, and its being less than easy to root he considered a "failure". It is thornless (completely!), flowers incessantly, isn't really "climbing" but builds into a soft, leafy mound of a plant with fairly elongated canes. You could probably shear it as you would a myrtle or other denser, soft shrub, to keep it as you want it. If you're feeling adventurous, Werner should root fairly easily...Kim Here is a link that might be useful: Softee...See MoreQuestion for Kim/Roseseek and others RE sun scald and dry cond
Comments (20)Kim I thank you for your concern/interest but I have been consistently surprised by the resilience of some of my study species eg, Strelitzia reginae which as long as not in a harsh exposure needs no water after establishment,at least locally, and Crinum moorei one of the most tropical looking plants (and native to bogs) is very dry tolerant, living on rain only, as long as in shade and not too next to trees. So Ive learned to keep an open mind. Regarding the Chinese roses Ive found testimony like this: Gertrude Jekyll, speaking of gardens on the French Riviera, says "Tea Roses, which not only bear but enjoy the summer heat and drought, flowering freely in November and December after the autumn rains and pruning". My understanding is that 'Safrano' was grown commercially there as a cut flower crop under ambient rainfall. And the original species Rosa gigantea, it must not be forgotten, is from seasonally dry forest. Based on this information I'm willing to consider that they can be grown in very dry conditions. I think you are right that chinese roses dont "go" with many of the xeric species but I'm a reductionist designer anyway. That is, I dont think roses "go" with most other woody plants, particularly the ones with fancy double flowers. I would always put them in a separate area carefully combined with garden flowers that would complement them, rather than other shrubs. If you search long enoough eventually you will find something that fits. Iris unguicularis which blooms from Oct-Mar, is very dry growing but like the Tea rose does not look like a desert plant.It also would do well under dappled shade. So I believe our differences are actually semantic. I am actually not considering tea roses in combination with Acacia redolens or Salvia clevelandii because they dont fit aesthetically together. And consider another irony...a native plant that is one of my study species, that can grow in very dry conditions in summer, but that dislikes harsh sun...Ribes malvaceum. It may actually have similar environmental tolerances to the roses. And it looks green, not desert-like, and its down-hanging tassels of pink flowers may actually be a good complement to some of the chinese roses like 'Isabella Sprunt'. In my opinion there isn't any one "look" that a very dry garden necessarily has, especially considering the mediterranean winter growers. In the study garden I put in on campus at Cal Poly Pomona the plants, especially Pelargonium echinatum and Withania aristata, look very green in winter, rather like a traditional water guzzling plant. In summer of course they drop their leaves and look much different. ...so Kim, Jeri, Campanula et al I hope you understand my outlook. I'm not going to take too much of a risk with a rose garden design. Maybe the next step is to do something like an agricultural trial, which acknowledges the uncertainty of my proposition by looking at no irrigation, monthly irrigation, and biweekly irrigation; sunscald susceptibility; efficacy of Purshade sunscreen, etc. Thank you all for showing concern, Nate...See MoreFor Roseseek (Kim): Need your expertise on these
Comments (10)Is the thought of planting the band in a partially submerged bucket without a bottom to prevent it from baking in hot weather/direct sun? My experience is immature plants benefit from warmer roots to stimulate them to grow faster than they do in cooler/colder soil. I can understand hilling a dormant plant set out in the soil to prevent it from being stimulated into growth before it's developed sufficient root mass to support it. I guess hilling a band to cover more of the main cane might afford a similar benefit. Here, I have best success with newly rooted plants and small seedlings planting them in one gallon nursery cans in good potting soil, then placing them in partial sun where I can pay attention to them and keep them watered. Once they develop enough root mass to begin filling the gallon size, I transplant them into two gallon cans. If they are growing vigorously by the time they are ready to be up sized, I may plant them in the ground or move them to five gallon cans, depending upon where they are to be planted or if they are for someone else, or if I'm too lazy to actually dig a hole for them at the moment. Your experience may well vary greatly, but here, I don't have any success letting the rain water pots. Often, the foliage canopy prevents much water from penetrating the plant and sufficiently wetting the root/soil ball, so I have to water the cans any way. We don't get rain eight to nine months of the year and when we do, it's not always hard enough to force its way into cans. Hand watering is necessary here for anything canned, mostly all year. Burying cans in the ground prevents any soil moisture from moving into the confined soil ball, so they have to be hand watered. I've cut the bottoms and about a third of the sides of many fifteen gallon cans so I could plant larger shrubs on a short, but rather steep slope in back. Those have to be watered more frequently than those directly planted in the soil as they dry out faster. I'm not sure what the benefit of planting bands in a can without a bottom will provide. Not that there isn't one, it just isn't logical to me. I'm all in favor of creating berms around plants to catch the water and focus it into where the roots are probably going to be. Otherwise it spreads out too far and may not actually penetrate deeply enough to encourage the roots to follow it down deeper, resulting in more drought tolerant plantings. Your experience with own root plants is going to vary greatly due to your climate and soil type; the type of garden culture you practice; the types of roses you grow and even the particular cultivars you choose to grow. The specific roses which will perform perfectly for me here are not necessarily those which will perform acceptably for you where you are. If the variety is a weak grower to begin with, it's going to be smaller most places own root compared to budded. If it's not suitable own root because it doesn't form a vigorous root system by itself, it isn't going to be as good anywhere own root. It may be better in some climates and soils than others, but if it's not a good rose own root because it doesn't GROW vigorous roots itself, it isn't going to be as good as it could be anywhere own root, period. The types which are slow to mature own root are going to be slower to mature everywhere own root compared to being budded on a root stock suitable for where it's being grown. Whether an own root plant will eventually mature to the same or larger size as the same rose budded will is also going to vary somewhat. Some, Iceberg being an excellent example here, can actually be inhibited by budding and result in a smaller plant than it can mature to own root. Some, such as Grey Pearl, Fantan and any other really weak growing, insufficiently rooted types, will never become the size they can become when budded. Those two will actually live much shorter, less productive lives own root than they can when budded. Any roses which suffer the same grow issues they do will perform similarly, and are always going to be better performers and garden specimen when grown on a stock suitable for the climates they're grown in. A rose's genetic ability to form a sufficient root mass is as variable as its ability to develop its foliage, flowers, suitable immune system and resistance to extreme conditions. Not every variety has a root system suitable to all soil types. An excellent example is the inability for strongly multiflora types to overcome chlorosis in alkaline conditions. Budding them on a suitable stock which isn't as extremely affected by alkalinity will overcome the chlorosis issues without the constant need to acidify the soil to release the iron and supply nitrogen. Budding types which aren't usually as strongly affected by chlorosis on multiflora will actually force them to suffer chlorosis they otherwise wouldn't experience in the same conditions. Some types' roots are more suited to warmer soils. Others are happier in cooler soils. Only experimentation and experience are going to tell you which is which and which will be good in your soil and climate. There is little reliable information out there because so many have been budded for so long. When you do find that kind of information printed in books, it's often not due to the rose's roots, but to the particular stock upon which it was grown. British writers have long warned against moving Elizabeth of Glamis because she "resents transplanting". The variety wasn't grown own root in Britain, being always produced on their stock of choice. If Elizabeth of Glamis resented transplanting, how could it have been offered as new bare roots annually and for so many decades? I agree with the statement that a suitable own root plant, when grown in a climate and soil type suitable to it, is usually longer lived than most budded plants. You more frequently find stands of Odorata and other types used as stocks in old cemeteries and gardens here in the West than you do actual budded plants. These are often the remnants of old budded plants where the stock has outlived the scion. When you do find old roses in abandoned or neglected situations, they are own root survivors and are always types which develop appropriate root systems for their genetic requirements. Not that they are going to perform similarly everywhere, but they are more likely to perform adequately more places than those which have narrower zones of suitable conditions. But, slow growers are going to be slow growers in virtually every climate. The only ways around that are to bud them on suitable stocks, or to provide them warmer, richer soils and push them to grow by disbudding them, preventing them from flowering until they develop the size you desire. Weaker growers will continue being weaker growers in most places because that is what is genetically programmed within them. They are inhibited naturally against either forming suitable root systems, producing much wood or foliage or both. "Forcing" them by supplying them with more vigorous roots is the most suitable way, in most situations, around that. It's your choice how you want to try growing them, and it's your choice what level of performance you are willing to accept. Kim...See MoreI think my seeds from Roseseek are sprouting!
Comments (11)Congratulations! As I wrote you, they KNOW when it's time to germinate and they will do it when they are good and ready. Unless you just MUST raise them indoors, planting them in soil, outside, then just keeping them watered as you would any other seeds or plants will usually result in the best performance. Some are going to explode from the ground NOW! Others will seem to take their own, sweet time. I obtained Grimaldi because of its reported health and wanted to see if it set viable seed, so I allowed it to set self hips, shelled and planted them right from the hips. Two weeks after plantingA couple of weeks ago, I got to visit Kippy in Santa Barbara and took cuttings of a few things I wanted to try for root stocks and collected self seeds of my Orastarmag I'd shared with her. They also exploded. Others come up here and there, but always on THEIR schedule. Because this climate has a very long, suitable period for germinating rose seeds, I planted the first batches last September. Those have also done what they wanted, when they wanted to. More are now sprouting after the rains, while others are growing vigorously and even flowering. Species cross seedlings can be the most fun because of their wild foliage. This might even repeat. Pretty Lady X R. Fedtschenkoana X Self. So, if you must germinate them indoors because of your climate, do that. If you don't have to hold them under refrigeration to delay germination, plant them outside in a soil suitable for your rainfall. The heavier the water, the lighter, better drainage you want. In lower rainfall areas, heavier, more moisture retentive soils work better so they don't completely dry out between waterings. Be sure to cover them with some sort of either window screen or plastic or metal hardware cloth. Birds and rodents LOVE rose seeds and tender, young seedlings. Banksiae, supposedly, requires two years to germinate from seed...except for the ones which germinated in four months from planting for me. They are going to do what they want, when they want to. They "KNOW" when it's time. I look forward to seeing your "baby pictures" when they flower! Good luck!...See MoreLisa Adams
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