Whether or not one chooses to spray chemicals, it seems to me that if parts of Canada have made it illegal, period, that will start happening in other places. I live in California, and believe me, I am surprised that the folks in Sacramento have not thought of this yet. They are currently trying to figure out a way to treat sugar the same as cigarettes! NY is infamous for trying to make certain types of food, etc. illegal - they have probably just not gotten around to garden chemicals yet.

My point is that whether or not anyone thinks it is a good idea, spraying chemicals on your roses may become illegal where you live, too, in the near future. That is what caused the problem for Pickering - they simply were no longer able to sell the disease prone roses, because no one wanted to buy them.

This may be a good thing in the long run - it may force rose gardeners (even exhibitors) to pay attention to which roses really do like their climate/micro climates. I agree with everyone who has advocated a "regional" focus on roses. Not only do I agree, I think that if spraying roses becomes illegal in more places, the market will react and breeders will start (it has started already, of course) paying more than lip service to REAL disease resistance, and WHERE the various roses will grow best. Perhaps being too optimistic...

Jackie

Maybe it's more difficult, in warmer climates? The temptation is greater to try roses that will winter over, but might not thrive?

For us...we're just HAPPY to find any rose that grows well and has a fragrance! We have a creek on our property, which brings in a lot of beneficial bugs. By leaving a few of their favorite weeds, in the back of the garden...they vist the roses, too. With the shrub rosees, it's easy to add some perennials, a few weeds, some annuals and it all looks like a cottage garden...with lots of 'little visitors'...bugs, birds, hummingbirds, butterflies, dragonflies, little frogs, garter snakes, etc.

That's the best part of the garden...oh, and the hummingbird moths that love the white petunias, in the evening :)

I agree, lavender lass - our house is only 3 blocks from the main street of our town, but the garden is alive with wild life. We have deer, possums, raccoons, skunks, zillions of different kinds of birds, butterflies, frogs & salamanders, etc. We even have the top of the food chain - there are hawks living in a very tall tree nearby, and twice in the last month we have seen one calmly sitting in our huge old oak tree, plucking and then eating a pidgeon!

Jackie

I waqs surprised to see two rare albas on the not available next year list, Pom Pom
Blanc Parfait and Armide. Especially in view of the fact that both are already sold out.

I wonder if it might be worth while to try to pursuade Pickering to keep Armide at least. If Pickering has the real Armide, not Mme. Plantier, they would seem to be the only vendor, besides VG, whose future is uncertain, in North America who does carry it. I can't remember if Heirloom has ever offered Armide.

Thanks Ann & Kim for the rootstock info

Nastarana -- It might be more useful to buy it, NOW, and propagate it yourself.

Because we're taking a long trip East, DH emptied the greenhouse today.

But when we come back we will begin to propagate a few of the rarities here, for local rosarians.

Jeri

Armide has already sold out at Pickering, Had I known earlier that my Armide is likely the same as Mme. Plantier, I would already have bought the real Armide, if it is the real one, from Pickering.

I worked at upscale I guess independent garden center for fiveish seasons and definitely noticed in perennial sales, at least since I started there has been a slow, very slow, but certainly present shift in more people looking to use natives (baptisia being a GREAT poster child to the movement) and things more adapted to our region. They are learning that many "classic" plants aren't worth trying with anymore. For every one of those there are people who want the traditional and then come complain when they die.

Poppies can be beautiful here but they've always been too persnickety for me. Many traditional shrubs are sorta dissapearing around here too, but are no doubt being replaced with sorta equally problematic stuff (leyland cypress)

I hated having to tell people to not bother with delphinium, carnation, sorta generic stuff here, unless you want to water them every hour of the day. We get too hot and humid but some things RELISH it here. I often had to design things for people that evoked the look they wanted (let's say English cottage) but I often substituted "classic" plants with those that are better suited our areas 90+ and humid summers.

There shouldn't just be a push for regional roses, plants but for me there also should be a push for MORE regional surburban style. It's still very gentrified going by annual sales and trends still seem to heavily stem from tropical/mild regions especially California. People want it to look like they live in Cali or Provence and its just...how about making it look like you live in Maryland, only better?

Example, have told so many people to not bother with many "reblooming" azaleas, especially Encore here as our winters beat them up even though zone wise we're sorta okay, they were bred for the Gulf Coast and that's where they should stay. There are too many fall blooming shrubs that can easily take the place of that niche, especially other hardier reblooming azaleas.

I swear though the prefab arborvitae, crepe myrtle, heavenly bamboo, daylilies, miscanthus and cherry laurels are EVERYWHERE here. Not that they're disease prone but the gentrified/sorta centralized design that's become entombed...since when did public median strip plantings become the same exact thing people wanted in their yards...it seems bizarre to me and outside of poor taste, the adhearence to things that DO need chemical sprays truly needs to change.

People need to learn that having a lawn past x state going west just isn't going to happen. That it's okay to not have a green lawn.

As a landscape designer I'm dying to do a garden of prickly pear/yucca and other native stuff that don't "look" native to the Mid-Atlantic but are native here and totally shock people into rethinking how they treat landscape.

The "idea" of what garden and landscape as introduced in the post WWII era really need to be let go of. That way people can finally get away from the cyclical parasitic adhearence to Scotts, Bayer, and Monsanto. We're bonified addicts in that respect, and they're laughing to the bank.

The Chessapeake Bay is like dead...because people want nice lawns. It's not just the farms. It's not just the roses.

It's US.

Though why Pickering is dropping gallicas, the least blackspot prone OGR family is beyond me...they hardly get any disease here and if it weren't for RRD I'd tout them as great "thicket" boundry/woodline plants.

That problem is all over. Imagine chronic demand for "my little piece of Connecticut" in the savannah and desert of Southern California. White Birches, acres of lawns, hedges of hydrangea are all beautiful, but not where water has to be imported many hundreds of miles and with salt contents sufficient to fry the foliage off the usual Birch in a few months.

You have to keep in mind there are five DIFFERENT populations of black spot so far identified in the US alone. The strain (s) you have in MD is not necessarily the same one (s) they have in Ontario and probably both are different from the one (s) we have here. Kim

Pickering is dropping gallicas because they can't sell them. End of story. Since I have problems *giving* them away, it shouldn't be a shock.

I wonder what percentage of the roses Pickering is dropping are once-bloomers. Most people like rebloomers. I think there are lots of roses left in their inventory which get blackspot but they might be popular plants, so they don't end up with a lot of leftover unsold plants.

I am not convinced that spraying fungicides is so detrimental. I think one of the chemists here, it might be Mike Rivers but I could be wrong, once described them as not as toxic as insecticides. I bet the quantities of chemicals used by lawn care companies is astronomical compared to fungicide use by rosarians. I have not noticed any decline in bug populations here, there are lots of worms and my garden looks like a bird sanctuary.
I wouldn't presume to tell Jeri what caused her dogs' seizures but could it be possible it was an allergic reaction? Or maybe the particular fungicide used was at fault but another one wouldn't be. I hear in the news about how diet sodas can increase one's chance of having a heart attack but they don't say which sweetener was in that study. Some sodas contain Nutrasweet and some contain Splenda or Aspertame but nobody says specifically which one is the culprit or if all are. I think it would help if we were educated about which fungicides are more harmful so we could have the option to use those that are more benign. I spray but mainly in the spring, except for my small plants. Once it gets very hot I give the plants a break from spraying regularly, and in fall I taper off and don't spray at all in winter. So it's not all that much of the year that I spray, and it keeps my roses in pretty good shape. I have rarely used any insecticides and think they are more toxic than most fungicides. For the most part I prefer the natural balance of bugs. I think it might be possible to spray fungicides once a month and have that be enough to keep blackspot levels down.

Gallicas, albas, damasks...they're all easier to grow (as long as they're zone 4) where I live, but people do seem to want rebloomers. Then, they complain about the winter, the spraying, the pruning, etc.

I love lilacs, peonies, daffodils, hyacinths, fruit trees...and none of those rebloom, either. We depend on annuals for that :)

I've grown perennials for years, but I this will be my first season with roses. For the last month I've been reading and researching like crazy and I have come to one main conclusion:

Roses are like politics--they are all local.

I've decided the majority of what I've read about specific varieties is almost useless to me. We either have to find local information and resources or just start buying and growing by trial and error. I suspect most people end up doing the later. And while some people enjoy that, many people don't and instead throw their hands up and avoid all roses in the future.

I personally think the politics of banning home owners from being able to spray roses is silly. When you compare it to the harmful chemical use in commercial farming and industry, home use is nothing. But homeowners don't have lobbying groups and aren't organized so are an easy political target. They are also highly visible so politicians can give a smarmy smile and exclaim about how it shows they are concerned about the environment when in actuality they have done next to nothing for it all while keeping their big industry donors happy.

Maybe if you live in California you see this as a trend, but here in flyover country we see it as a pendulum, and I see it starting to swing the other way. The green movement has to base its foundation on being economically sustainable and sensible before it will truly be successfull. Right now it is too focused on emotion and warm fuzzys about doing the "right thing" for real long lasting traction.

I really liked what he said. Earlier when we were talking about "last year" at this nursery, I looked through all of them... none of them were plants I was growing or wanted to grow.

I'm not saying those roses don't deserve to exist, but his reasoning seems pretty spot on to me (removing plants that didn't perform as well... ones that didn't sell as well)

In part at least we owe the uniformity of modern gardens to the Father of Landscape Architecture himself, Frederick Law Olmstead. He was in love with the pastoral look. When planning the Riverside development in Chicago, he decreed setbacks, uninterrupted lawns, and one or two trees on each property. He wanted to convey the idea that the houses were dotted along one large park. This is the look that became fashionable throughout the 20th century, and what a desert it is to biodiversity as well as regionalism! And how very, very bland.

Here is a link that might be useful: Michael Pollan on lawns

Linda, the product labels tell you which are most toxic for mammals. "Caution", "Warning", "Danger" indicate how toxic each is. "Caution" is the lowest toxicity for you and your pets, wildlife, etc., but none can indicate how likely you, or anyone else might be allergic to them. I tried one of the
"Caution" Bayer products last year on the mealybug out front on the ice plant. Used it to the letter of the instructions. Just the smell of it nearly killed me. Numb gums-lips-tongue, jittery, faint, nauseated, and I didn't get it ON me, nor did I inhale any over-spray. It was JUST the smell of it. If you can smell the stuff, you're inhaling it. Gave that stuff to a gardening friend who uses insecticides. It took nearly a week to be able to walk out the front gate because the smell was so strong.

I've experienced similar issues with products neighbors have used, also. For garden maintenance, I only use Spinosad (for citrus leaf miners) and water. If there is an out break of something else, I'll physically wash off what I can and am not afraid to amputate portions of plants to eliminate the infestation if I must. I won't get near a lawn which has been sprayed with anything. It just isn't worth it. I realize some MUST use chemicals to be able to grow what they desire, or even anything at all, but I can't even if I wanted or had to. The older I get, the more I experience reactions to chemicals of all kinds. Kim

The following recently appeared in the American Chemical Society weekly magazine:
"A study on four classes of chemicals�plastics, pesticides, dioxins, and hydrocarbons�has confirmed that exposure of a fetus to man-made chemicals in the womb can result in heritable changes in gene expression, even to offspring generations later that were not directly exposed to the chemicals"

H. Kuska comment: please note the plural in: "to offspring generations later"

"They exposed pregnant female rats to the fungicide vinclozolin and the insecticide methoxychlor and found that 90% of the male offspring after three generations still exhibited a decrease in fertility."

Also please see: http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2012/low-doses-big-effects
------------------------------------------
Apparently two of the present "hot fungicides" for blackspot prevention in the U.S. are Tebuconazole and mancozeb.

The European Union has banned tebuconazole as of 2018.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/265134
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Apparently the reason for the ban is: "Due to the potential for endocrine disrupting effects, tebuconazole was assessed by the Swedish Chemicals Agency [3] as being potentially removed from the market by EU regulation 1107/2009.[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tebuconazole

---------------------------
Regarding mancozeb:
Journal: Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2012 Feb 17. [Epub ahead of print]
Title: The fungicide mancozeb induces toxic effects on mammalian granulosa cells.
Authors: Paro R, Tiboni GM, Buccione R, Rossi G, Cellini V, Canipari R, Cecconi S.
Authors affiliation: Department of Health Sciences, University of L'Aquila, Via Vetoio, L'Aquila, Italy.

Abstract: "The ethylene-bis-dithiocarbamate mancozeb is a widely used fungicide with low reported toxicity in mammals. In mice, mancozeb induces embryo apoptosis, affects oocyte meiotic spindle morphology and impairs fertilization rate even when used at very low concentrations. We evaluated the toxic effects of mancozeb on the mouse and human ovarian somatic granulosa cells. We examined the parameters such as cell morphology, induction of apoptosis, and p53 expression levels. Mouse granulosa cells exposed to mancozeb underwent a time- and dose-dependent modification of their morphology, and acquired the ability to migrate but not to proliferate. The expression level of p53, in terms of mRNA and protein content, decreased significantly in comparison with unexposed cells, but no change in apoptosis was recorded. Toxic effects could be attributed, at least in part, to the presence of ethylenthiourea (ETU), the main mancozeb catabolite, which was found in culture medium. Human granulosa cells also showed dose-dependent morphological changes and reduced p53 expression levels after exposure to mancozeb. Altogether, these results indicate that mancozeb affects the somatic cells of the mammalian ovarian follicles by inducing a premalignant-like status, and that such damage occurs to the same extent in both mouse and human GC. These results further substantiate the concept that mancozeb should be regarded as a reproductive toxicant."

Here is a link that might be useful: Chemical and Engineering News recent article

Gee, Henry, if I see any pregnant rats on my property I'll be sure to warn them.

One homeowner uses a -cide; not too much. How much harm can it do? How about if you multiply it by millions?

I completely agree with oath5: that's a good statement of the situation.

I don't quarrel with people who spray; it's not evil. But for myself, I don't spray, I've never sprayed, and I've enjoyed my garden about as much as anybody does theirs. Perhaps it's not as pretty as some, but then, my goal is not to have the prettiest garden around, but the sweetest and most enjoyable. Of course, I have an easy climate. But my guess is that wherever I lived I would always look for the plants that grow healthily without chemical intervention.

I was out in the garden this evening admiring the emerging foliage on one of the Gallicas, 'Aimable Amie' I think it was. I think the young foliage of the once-blooming roses is particularly lovely: I like the soft matte leaves and the sticky scented glands, and the way the leaves come out narrowly folded and reflexed and then spread wide. Once-blooming roses have a rare sumptuousness when they're in full leaf and then in bloom, like lilacs and peonies, and like the tall grass and the little herbs that are growing so lushly right now (a month earlier than usual this year). I love the foliage and habit of Tea roses, so light and elegant and yet so vigorous, but the once-blooming old roses are equally charming, and more in keeping with the tender spring landscape of the temperate zones.
I enjoy my once-blooming roses for much more than the flowers. First the leafing out, then the buds and the blooms, then hips, then fall foliage, and even the naked stems in winter can be interesting. So many repeat-flowering varieties strike me as dull plants.

Melissa

"But my guess is that wherever I lived I would always look for the plants that grow healthily without chemical intervention."

*** As would I.
And I've done it both ways, so I KNOW what choices I would make. Have made.

Anything that can't grow here without a chemical crutch (be it a rose or anything else) will just have to not grow here. I'll enjoy it somewhere else.

Jeri

Sorry. the Chemical and Engineering article is locked. The published scientific article that it is based on is very technical. Hopefully, one or more of the news services will carry their own summary.
-----------------------------------
The following link may help the reader understand why there is concern that synthetic endocrine disruptors at even low dosages are of concern to humans (not just pregnant rats).

"Studies have examined people from the general population and found associations between low levels of hormone-altering compounds and infertility and other reproductive problems, cardiovascular disease, neurodevelopmental effects, obesity, abnormal bone health, cancer and other diseases. The overall cost to society is enormous, and it continues to rise."

Here is a link that might be useful: Opinion: 'There are no safe doses for endocrine disruptors'

More research out today about the connection between bee decline and systemic pesticides.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/29/crop-pesticides-honeybee-decline

Here is a link that might be useful: Guardian UK - Bee decline and systemics

^ The chemical in the British bee study is commonly known as Merit, a component of the Bayer All-In-One drench product and also available as a spray, sometimes used against Japanese Beetles.

I use Round Up and it makes me a better steward of the environment.

I have 50 acres I keep maintained. (When I say "I" that means I mow, I bushhog, I weed eat, I clear, I plant, and I nurture.) I have a little more than 40 acres in pasture with over a mile of fencing and the balance in a wooded area along the flood plain of a river that my county uses for drinking water that flows in to the river the city of Nashville uses as a water source. I maintain this on my own with only about 4 hours a week of paid labor.

I am just one woman so I have a choice. I can let the 7 acres along the river go back to the invasive exotic jungle it was 5 years ago when we bought the place or I can judiciously use an herbicide in what I've come to realize will be a lifelong battle. Many, many of those hours I've paid of labor has gone to ripping up or digging out exotics by hand, but when honey suckle bush or privet start having trunks the width of your arm it is not a battle you can win without herbicides. I pity the fool who thinks it is--bless their hearts.

Because of my herbicide use I've prevented the area along the river from becoming a monoculture unfriendly to all the native plant species as well as to the local wildlife. I've rescued the native river cane which was almost gone when we started, and it is bar none the best species to grow to prevent river bank erosion. River bank erosion is a bad, bad thing for those you who don't know and today my stretch of river is healthier than it was 5 years ago.

Herbicides have their place in heathy, vibrant natural environments. I find that extremist on either side of any issue are usually wrong.

Nice work, subk! I'm from Alabama originally. I hear your "bless their hearts!" LOL! Kim

I live here in ontario, and have never been able to buy the products availible in the U.S. We have always had limited pesticides and products for black spot ect. Even if I wanted a rose that needed help I couldn't just because its pretty. We have no dormant oil spray for spring any more. Try growing roses with all these restrictions, its not easy, trust me....

mark

Round-Up on a "in a wooded area along the flood plain of a river that my county uses for drinking water that flows in to the river the city of Nashville uses as a water source."
----------------------------------

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887233311003341

http://www.springerlink.com/content/62n6007449g75742/

Henry, if you are a going to quote me then it would only be a good faith effort on your part to include the part where I said "judicious" use.

It sounds as if you've lost perspective on the big picture by focusing on a single subject to the exclusion of other important issues. Maybe you should do some research on the ecological devastation caused by invasive exotics, the monocultures they create and the devastation on waterways caused by out of control erosion.

Also, would you mind sharing any first hand personal experience you have with invasive exotics and their control? Round Up use to control invasives is something that even the most ardent no-chemical environmentalist regularly cave on--at least those who have experience with invasive eradication. It's great to have strong opinions, but are yours reality based?

subk3, we have invasive species growing in a neglected area near us. Since no one will deal with it, DH is about to use Roundup on it, tho it is not our land. (It is absentee owned, and the County lacks the resources to deal with it.)

I DETEST Roundup.
But there are some circumstances wherein even I see it as the lesser-evil.

Jeri

As do I, but when battling prickly cucumber on a steep slope, it was the only way to combat it. I dug DOZENS of the nasty things out where I physically could, many of which had their tubers easily three feet into the slope. It took a full gallon of the stuff but I've killed huge areas where they were densely entrenched. I continue digging new seedlings and working on several enormous tubers where I can hold myself on the slope without falling down. One took much of last summer to unearth. I dug one out after most of the summer working on it that was nearly two feet across and weighed too much to lift. If you can unearth them and leave them out in the sun, they'll dry out and die. It's finding them in the soil that's the hard part. The new tendrils can grow six feet or more under the soil surface before emerging to begin smothering anything in their paths. Squirrels LOVE the seeds and plant them everywhere. Hateful things! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Prickly Cucumber on You Tube

Well, we can't get at it inside the fencing, but we can retard it spreading.

Jeri

subk3, I am presenting reviewed scientific publications and/or summaries of them.

I am a retired scientist, I feel that I have a responsibility to inform others of current reviewed scientific research that question the safety of garden chemicals. Whether the individual reader decides to utilize the Precautionary Principle due to what I present, I have no control over.

I assume that sooner or later individual states and/or the U.S. government will adopt something similar to Ontario's example (From the first post in this thread: "For those unaware here in Ontario, Canada (and a growing number of communities in Canada) home gardeners cannot apply ANY synthetic pesticide for cosmetic purposes")

Here is a link that might be useful: Precautionary Principle

It's kind of hard to balance the government banning Round Up for home use with their highly lucrative approvals of Monsanto's genetically modified Round Up ready corn, soybean and alfalfa crops. The scary part are the Dr. Huber reports. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: New Pathogen Found in Roundup Ready GM Crops Causes Spontaneous Abortions and Infertility in Livestock?

Henry, thank you for the scientific abstracts you've posted over the years about chemical use, I've learned a great deal from them. The science is the science, regardless of our anecdotal experience. The GMO debates are a whole 'nother can of worms but it's not looking good; unplanned consequences out in the field are already happening.

What bothers me is that there is science with an agenda. Go back and read the papers about RRD. RRD was said seldom to affect cultivated roses. That appeared not in rose publications, but in juried scientific articles.

The herbicide usage for GM plants ....they buy it by the 40 gallon barrell. If you know Whit Wells out near Memphis who hybridizes some interesting roses, well, Whit gets those barrells, cuts them in half , puts drainage holes in them and grows roses in them, safe from burrowing rose roots eating critters. Often he doesn't remove the glyphosate labels.

My occasional, careful use of RoundUp is why I cannot consider myself an organic gardener. I don't believe it is entirely safe, though probably more benign than most herbicides. For these reasons we do not use it anywhere that hand weeding is a possibility.

We use it to control a steep hillside field of invasive weeds (heavily milk thistle, but also a new problem, Dittrichia graveolens). Since we live in a fire zone we are required by law to keep the hill free of dry vegetation above a few inches. When the rains stop, everything except native trees will turn brown, so effectively this means no vegetation other than trees. We hire someone to disc the hill, but until the soil is dry enough for that, we have to spray.

We also use it on poison oak. We had someone come in and bulldoze an extensive stand (on an even steeper hill; don't know how he did it). We then spray the new shoots with Roundup as they emerge in the spring so it won't come back.

I used to think that after 10 years of spraying we would have exhausted the seedbank of the milk thistle, but with the dittrichia spreading, this is now a permanent problem. The only way we could avoid it is to plant, deeply mulch, and water the entire 3 acres, then hand weed anything we didn't want that came up through the mulch. We just don't have the water to do it.

And here, I thought a hillside covered with ice plant was a heavy cross to bear. I swear I won't complain about it again.

Jeri

I also moved into a yard that was overgrown with invasive weeds, Japanese honeysuckle, cat briar, all sorts of stuff. And the trumpet vine, Lord help me with that. I only had poison ivy twice, and used RU on that. I use RU most for spot weeds. If I'm trying to get rid of vines, I try to cut them and put a cotton ball with undiluted RU on it. That seems to work best and limits the exposure. Of course I only have a half acre, so it's not that bad. And the honeysuckle does smell nice :)

I have to add my mea culpa here too. We have killed elms once in the past with a NASTY herbicide, and are planning on killing some more this spring. The reason is because it's impossible to garden anywhere near elms: their questing roots travel yards and yards and, when they find good soil, infest it and suck all the life out of it. We spent a day digging elm roots out of the box garden and that was their death sentence. They had killed two roses and probably had a hand in the death of two boxes, and that's enough.
So I'm not an organic gardener either for this one reason. And yes, for elms I will resort to nasty poisons.
Melissa

We have tried hard to keep as organic as possible. My dad was big in to not using pesticides and leaving things to decompose where they lay. But he also had no issue using elements to fertilize or change the soil.

It was really hard for me to buy and use some dormant oil and because I hesitated so much, the garden only got one treatment and I might have burnt one roses leaves a bit (either that or I have a different issue with that rose)

And as much as we would rather not, I have a few trees that are meeting some round-up They have already had two treatments and will probably have a third shortly.

I hate zapotes.... These ones refuse to die!

White Birches are as NASTY as your Elms, Melissa, for the same reason. Kim

Never EVER plant black walnuts either!!!! Their roots are toxic and will kill anything else planted anywhere around them for many yards/meters away. You live and learn...

Yep, well I am not in the mood to apologise for my use of glyphosate. If I had a penny for everyone of our customers who claimed to be organic, only to find something nasty lurking in their sheds, Mr.Camps and I would be rich gardeners today. When, and only when, the huge pharma companies such as Bayer, Monsanto and the hated Dow Agro get their collective wrists slapped and whopping bans and sanctions on them, will I feel ashamed about my negligible use of the considerably less toxix glyphosate compared to the evil pesticides such as imidacloprid....and as for GM!!!!

Seil,
Black walnuts' roots and juglans are tolerated by the following roses in my garden:

American Pillar
Fortuniana
Pauls Himalayan Musk on multiflora rootstock.

The roses are ten years+ old and are tolerably healthy
American Pillar is almost thirty feet up its walnut. Fortuniana is on and above a seedling walnut and PHM is 25 feet up its walnut tree.

This thread is drifting, but black walnut? I have Rosa mulligani and Chevy Chase. I've always heard that anything with much china in it will be unhappy there; it also seems like the more a plant is alkaline tolerant, the better off it will be.

Unfortunately, Black Walnuts love this hill. Add Pepper Trees and the Oleanders (before Leaf Scorch) and they formed the major hill holding system. I deal with the walnut roots all over the main planting area I have for the roses, and that can't be changed, unfortunately. Kim

I actually like black walnut trees and intend to plant one in the next year or so, but out beyond the fence, not where I grow roses.

Rosefolly

Another first for Round-Up.

"The world's most popular weed killer can induce morphological changes in vertebrate animals, U.S. biologists studying its effect on amphibians say.

University of Pittsburgh researchers said the weed killer Roundup, in sub-lethal and environmentally relevant concentrations, caused two species of amphibians to change their shape."

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

I'm glad to hear that there are some things that will tolerate Black Walnut trees. But I'm not one of them, lol! Besides the toxic root system they are down right messy trees and the squirrels infest them. They seem to think it's great fun to drop those big hard nuts on my head! OUCH!

Canada has been on the forefront as far as safety and the use of chemicals.
I remember when I started out I used a weak milk solution, horticultural oils, and baking soda.
Now my arsenal is truly interesting, although I am loath to use it.
When I visited Butchart Gardens several years--- ago OK decades, I complained to the groundskeeper that he really needed to spray his roses. He did not disagree.

Here is a link that might be useful: Butchart Gardens