You're right.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

That Color!!!

You know, it's really a little darker than that, but the camera messes with deep reds . . .

Jeri

Gorgeous! That color is so rich!

Is CS suppose to open up into full flowers? Mine is a beautiful plant but the buds stay balled up, sometimes the petals open like your picture but never develop. I'm ready to move her in a corner because of that.

Oh, my goodness, Kutekaos, mine did the same thing, both the bush and the climber. I've never heard of anyone having this problem until you. I don't understand why it does this. It didn't matter if it was spring, summer or what. It did it all year. Maybe I didn't wait long enough (3 years, I think) for him to mature out of it, but he's gone. :((

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

DO you think it is some sort of disease?

Did they get "brown-ish?" Could be botrytis????

There are a few roses that fail to open here, in our cool springs. The Cochets are all so-afflicted. I haven't seen that problem with Cl. Cramoisi Superieur -- nor for that matter with the bush form. But we are COLD and dank -- rarely warm and humid.

Jeri

I have had this rose for a couple years and it is still not much bigger than it was when I planted it. It's in a decent place. I'm used to climbers being slow but it is the slowest ever.

Any suggestions?

Chinas are not generally in love with my climate, I think. They do ok, but not great, usually. The exception is Archduke Charles though.

Yes, they are brownish, hang on, let me get a pic.

Jasper, Archduke Charles is way different from the average China. I could see that the red ones might not care for your conditions -- but some of the pinks might "do" for you.

Jeri

That is what they always look like.

Well, what are your conditions like? How big is the plant? This looks like the sort of botrytis you see when blooms have failed to open because of damp.

Some roses, when I see this starting to happen, I can peel off the outer ("guard") petals, and the blooms will open normally. Whether you would want to do that constantly . . .

It is, of course, possible that, once the plant was truly mature (say, 5, 6 years) it might have enough "oomph" to open the blooms nicely). There again, whether you want to wait for that is up to you.

Jeri

It is an Antique Rose Emporium rose, I bought it in a 2 gallon pot. I have it on my deck in full sun. I live basically in Austin texas, it has been pretty humid and rainy the last month of April. How would I go about treating this?

Yep, that's what mine looked like. Hmmm, I hadn't thought about Botrytis, didn't know about it back then. The balled blooms weighed a ton and were hard. I tried peeling back the outer petals but it was futile because they were so hard. Interestingly, it was in the same bed as Rosette Delizy (in fact, RD replaced CS), and RD got Botrytis alot to the extent that I took her out. I have other roses there now and no Botrytis. Others in central FL have said RD is susceptible to botrytis, but I'm trying RD again in the very hot and sunny front garden.

Kutekaos, don't know if moving it would help, but maybe a very hot sunny spot might improve it. That's just a shot in the dark since I know not what I'm talking about. hehe Maybe just wait it out. My friend grows both well just north of here. Go figure.

Where are you?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I'm in central texas, Georgetown to be exact, just North of Austin TX. I have it in a big black pot and I have had this problem with it the last month or so. I haven't tried anything else on it but Bayer 3-1 and Neem oil. I haven't tried it back to back yet, I had not considered that it might have Botrytis. I have it in the full sun on my deck, I was training it to climb the patio over my hot tub so I could look up and see big red, beautiful roses. Do you think that the 100 degree weather yet to come will bake away the fungus? Or should I go buy some fungicide?

No -- I don't think fungicide is going to eliminate this.

When we sprayed, we had some roses that failed to open here.
(I once shocked several people by saying that 'Niles Cochet' was sufficiently beautiful at the half-open stage that I didn't care if he stalled there.)

Now that we don't spray, we still find roses, periodically, which fail to open here.

If a rose just can't outgrow that problem, we remove it. C.S. does NOT have that problem here, so I'm happy.

But, Sherry, I should note that we have grown Rosette Delizy since 1987 or 88, and we have NEVER seen it fail to open.

I have heard it said that there were more than one clone of RD in commerce, and that the very pale pastel one was preferred, as it was more vigorous.

Our RD is the very colorful one. It never fails to open, and it is almost 6 ft. tall -- which is enough for me.

Jeri

Jeri, the botrytis on RD did not look like CS. It was gray, fuzzy gross stuff. I think I got my RD from Vintage. Now I have one from Rose Petals Nursery. It's just going into its first, non-freeze-aborted flush, and everything looks fine. My first RD was fine for a couple of years before it got that botrytis fungus. Maybe Florida has more of it. Don't know, but RPN says they've never seen botrytis on RD, and they're 45 miles away. Two other friends say they've had it. Is botrytis fungus in the air or in the ground? Just curious.

Kutekaos, your area of Texas is pretty dry in summer, isn't it? Maybe that will help CS. One thing I know is that you need to remove the effected buds and throw them away. Don't drop them in the garden, because the spores spread that way. I think I would disbud early until summer hits, and then let it bloom to see what it does.

Bermuda's Anna Olivier would get the red dots occasionally that I understand is botrytis but never the fuzzy stuff.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry, my summers get dreadfully hot. I appreciate the advice because I am a newbie at roses. I bought my first house in July and come Jan. to now, I have collected about 50 roses. and I have an extensive veggie garden with about 20 different types, 3 types of grapes, strawberries. I can't even begin to write about everything else that I have put into the ground that is not a rose;) I am still planning my gardens and creating more, reading up and soaking in all the information I can to keep it all in check. I did pick off the affected buds and the two flowers that did not look very bad, I pulled the outer petals off like jerijen suggested. I did spray it with Bayer 3 in 1 again, although I don't know if that will do any good. Neem oil will go on tomorrow. Rosette Delizy is really pretty, I have never heard of it until now, is it shade tolerant? Like 3-4 hours of shade?

Kutekaos, I shudder when you mention Bayer 3-in-1., so I googled and found a great ARF thread about it.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg042214298739.html

As to shade, we usually talk in terms of how much sun rather than the other way around. Teas are not shade tolerant. They like heat, and they bloom a lot so I imagine the more sun you can give them the better. If it's early or late shade, that might not be bad. If you're talking shade from 1 o'clock on, I don't think that would work. My Quietness is against the west side of the house with trees to the south, so it doesn't get sun until after 1 o'clock. Amazingly, it is perfectly healthy and blooming a lot, but that is supposed to be the worst possible position for a rose - the dew doesn't dry off the leaves and the western sun is really too hot..So if you've got a spot like that, try Quietness.

I do not spray. I pick off/squish bugs when I see them. For the first time this year, I sprayed Saf-T-Side horticultural Oil for the thrips, but I mistakenly mixed the dose wrong by half. It seems to have reduced the problem from last year, so... But I did find a dead bumble bee and my two Louis Philippes defoliated. I don't know if it was related to the spraying, but I won't spray the Chinas again. When you garden (don't know about veggies), I've come to believe I mostly have to accept what comes and hope that nature eventually catches up with the beneficials. For the most part everything is copacetic - eventually. I would be very careful about spraying stuff on very young plants. I did manage to kill one with fungicide in my first batch of roses when I was a newbie.

Your garden sounds wonderful and very ambitious.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

WHOA WHOA WHOA Kutkaos!!!!

HOW HOT IS IT THERE, NOW???

Personally, experience has taught me that if I use ANY oil spray at temps over about 68 deg., I can expect to see damage that is far worse than any disease.

AAMOF, since we no longer exhibit, I haven't sprayed with Neem, or anything else for a good 3-4 years. Anything that consistently has problems in that situation just doesn't stay here.

I will not use any of the Bayer products. Not on my garden, where they can damage bees, and not on my dogs, where they can trigger seizures in "susceptible individuals." I'm not preaching at you, and I realize that your conditions are different -- far different -- from mine. But I love to watch bees rolling around in rose pollen, and I don't like to think I'm killing them.

That's me. I'm not preachin' at y'all.
Just sayin . . .

Jeri

I have bees everywhere, I didn't know that it killed bees. I use Neem oil and companion planting in my vegetable garden. I had no idea all the stuff that bayer used in it's products. That forum was really informative Sherry, I learned a lot and I bookmarked it for future resource. LOL, Jeri, your not preaching!! It's getting in the 80's and 90's right now. My veggies seem fine, I actually haven't been spraying enough because the bugs are on my types of lettuce. I have never sprayed my other plants, just some of my roses when they need help. I have ants that have taken up dinner time in one of my unknown roses in the front and they just cover the roses eating bugs but not the plant. But, like the cramoisi today, I sprayed it all over with Bayer;( I don't know what to do about all the thrips, spider mites and aphids that like to eat my roses. THey don't seem to bother the other plants. I planted garlic under some of my roses and they do seem to be aphid free or have so little aphids, I have never sprayed them. SOooo, on that note, I have;)

Lindee
Mutabilis
Madame Isaac Pierre
12 grocery store mini's planted about
Lavender Lassie
Graham Thomas
Claire Rose
My unknown rose
Abraham Darby
2 Mr. Lincolns
Kordes Perfecta
3 homerun roses for the dog run
Carefree spirit
frau karl druschki climbing rose
Angel Face climbing rose
Orange Velvet climbing rose
Cramoisi Superieur climbing rose
2 Ducher roses
2 Mrs. B. R. Cant
Celestine Forestier
Maman Cochet
Dark Night
Zepherine Drouhin
Double Delight
Mrs. Dudley Cross
Perfume Delight
Belinda's Dream
Monsieur Tillier
Improved Blaze climbing rose
Peace Climbing rose
Kaiserin Fredrich
The Prince

So should I not use Neem oil on my roses in the heat of summer?

SIncerely,

L'Origan

ps: thanks for being patient with all the questions.

I don't seem to get many aphids except on new growth in spring - and this year barely at all. When I see them, or when I see deformed leaves I look for them, I take the baby leaf or bud gently and firmly in my fingers and delicately smush all around it. Sometimes I can just smear them off. They squish easy. And then I wait for the ladybugs. I had more this year, so that's good. Aphids and leaf-footed bugs and others do not eat the rose. They suck the juices from them, causing the new leaves to curl and get crispy. This makes the plant look bad in places but doesn't kill it, so there's no reason to "drop the big one" on them. Like I said, I don't know anything about veggies, but I do know you eat them, so I would be careful about putting anything on them. All these "natural" pesticides are still poisons and usually broad-spectrum poisons. They kill everything and don't differentiate between bad bugs and good bugs.

It takes time to achieve balance in gardening. It doesn't come in the first month, or even in the first year, but more like several years. Organic gardening takes time - in the ground and above the ground. Quick fixes and being in a hurry fit in more with chemicals than they do with organics.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

To me it looks like Thrips. I see a lot of those in my yard. Belindas dream get effected too but manages to open up. The worst is Abraham Darby. Do you see very tiny (berely visible) white/brown tiny worms on the back side of the petals? Try and open the bloom and see if some of the petals have them. Its been reported n Austin/San Antonio area. we see it a lot in Houston/Pearland too. Roselee pretty much gave a away several of her roses because of Thrips. She posts quite frequently on this forum. She may have more to share about Chili Thrips. Not just roses, even Jasmine took a toll this yr.

It gets better after the first flush.

I do have these bugs all over my plants. They done seem to cause any damage. Do you know what they are? I haven't seen any little worms yet.

Thanks,
L'Origan

It's a bit off topic but I have a good story about waiting for nature to take it's course. The house my mom bought about six years ago came with a pretty large plum tree, that first year (it had been sprayed while the house was for sale) it did fine, no problems. The second year I noticed some curled leaves, which I found out were caused by plum aphids. I decided that I would just let it be and wait for the ladybugs to come and eat them. Well, the plum suffered that year, and the next year it was even worse. It's been getting worse every year, last year there were hardly any unaffected leaves. This year, seeing that almost every leaf was curled and the aphids were starting to spread to my new Elephant Heart plum, I had decided that I would start taking stronger measures, as much as I hate to spray I was ready to start. But I delayed for about a week because I was busy, and then one day I was passing by the big plum and I noticed a massive amount of activity. Upon closer inspection I realized that there were thousands of ladybugs, soldier beetles, and other predatory bugs I'm unfamiliar with feasting on the aphids. I don't know why it took so long for them to come, but the cavalry finally arrived and I'm feeling very happy about it. I guess years and years of no pesticides whatsoever finally brought the good bug populations up so that they can handle the aphids. I guess the moral of the story is that patience is a virtue, and sometimes procrastination can be a good thing!

That is a wonderful story, I have some hope now lol. DO you happen to know what those two bugs are on my Lindee rose? They are all over the other roses. I haven't sprayed when I see them because I was hoping that they were predatory.

I have no idea, I just learned what soldier beetles were this year because I saw them all over the roses that had aphids. Your guess is as good as mine, I'm afraid.

When we quit spraying -- and we quit cold-turkey in mid-season -- it was pretty awful.

We had ALWAYS sprayed. Dutifully rotated sprays, to avoid pesticide resistance. Sprayed, and drenched, and . . .

Well, we had certainly suppressed the "bad bugs" and organisms, but we had likewise pretty much eliminated all the good guys, at the same time.

It took a couple of years. In that time, we removed some roses that -- without preventive spray -- rusted from the moment a leaf opened.

It took a couple of years, but eventually the bees returned to the garden, and ladybugs and other predators showed up, and the lizard population exploded (no more slugs and snails!). Our garden isn't a showplace, and there is some dead growth that needs removing, but it is HEALTHY, and there's plenty of bloom going on.

Jeri

I like your story, Peachymomo. It gives me hope, too.

This link might be your green bug. Assassin bugs are good guys, but there are other bugs whose nymph stage is similar. Since I don't know the difference between good and bad at that stage, I don't kill them just in case they're good. It would make a funny photo - me paralyzed with the fear of killing something good while frustrated because my brain can't remember what I have "learned" on the internet. I know the adults, and those I kill.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Assassin_bug_nymph.jpg

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Kutekaos--I have those green bugs on my roses, too, but I think they are actually eating the buds and some of the leaves. The roses that are damaged almost always have one of those green bugs on them....either they are doing the damage, or they are hunting down whatever is... I usually just flick them off, but don't kill them....like that helps. Also, I only have 14 roses, but almost every one I have is on your list! I also live in central texas, so maybe I'm on the right track...

I had aphids in one of my beds, and I spent a few hours checking each one of my new little buds and all the new growth and picking them off by hand. Obsessive much? I also get the kids to go ladybug hunting and bring them as "gifts" to my roses with aphids.

I've only had my plants a few months, and don't intend to spray anything. I just hope I am doing everything I can to make the garden a healthy place!

Rachel -- it's quite possible that your predator bugs are there, because that's where their prey -- bad bugs -- are hangin' out.

Your black pot may be a problem. It may make the roots too hot. I know how hot it gets there. My grandpa was born and raised in Adina, sort of between Hutto and Elgin. China's should be good there, but this one'd be better in the ground, particularly in hot times.

Jeri