As Bob Martin has pointed out, these things are meant to kill things.
It's worth keeping in mind that they may kill more than you wanted them to.

Jeri

It isn't wise to base your knowledge of a pesticide on a publication from an antipesticide group. These "fact sheets" typically distort the true picture, cherry picking items from various sources without supplying context or communicating what the various studies actually concluded. While there are certainly concerns regarding use of many insecticides including imidacloprid, for a fully informed, science based source of information I would suggest peer reviewed or university based information. A few:

Extoxnet:http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/imidaclo.htm

Imidacloprid Environmental fate- CDPR- http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/imid.pdf

Imidacloprid: Human health and ecological risk assessment- Syracuse environmental Research Assoc. - http://www.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/pesticide/pdfs/122805_Imidacloprid.pdf

Again, there are concerns with use of imidacloprid that should be carefully factored in by anyone considering its use, but it is best to base decisions on a good understanding of the actual characteristics of this insecticide.

Here is a link that might be useful: Extoxnet

Merit is not far removed from what I spray my house with for fleas and without it, my poor furry babies would be a mass of fleas regardless that they get treated, since we spend so much time outside. It is spray when wearing a mask every 5-7 months to prevent fleas. It has a long shelf life after leaving the spray nozzle. It is recommended to be used every 6 months. In early spring I do it a month earlier and in winter, a month later, since we have early heat and late freeze. It works that way for me. I cannot imagine using it every week nor could my lungs.

Jayk, I agree that one should read unbiased scientific studies. Unfortunately, 1) most people don't, 2) most studies do not include long range (100 yrts+ projections or how such chemicals will combine with other chemicals being poured into the environment. Look at the studies just done on the numbers and rising quantities of prescription drugs now in everybody's drinking water. In case you haven't noticed, we, as a species, are not very good at long range planning. Better to suffer imperfections. Again, anything that kills, kills.

Posted by athenainwi z4b/5 WI (My Page) on Sat, Mar 15, 08 at 19:38

You don't even need to use insecticides for japanese beetles. Last year I drowned the beetles in a bucket of soapy water. It was just as effective as spraying with an insecticide and much more environmentally friendly.

You might not need to, but people with serious infestations don't have much other choice. When pulling hundreds of beetles a day doesn't even make a dent in the carnage, you begrudgingly start looking in the insecticide aisle.

I did have hundreds of beetles. That's why I finally bought the milky spore for the lawn. I figure since I'm probably pulling in most of the beetles in the neighborhood that if I treat my lawn, it should kill most of them too. But the insecticide sprays really did take just as long as the bucket of water method, since each set of beetles needs to be sprayed every day. I didn't see any residual effect from the insecticide that I tried.

Merit is not far removed from what I spray my house with for fleas

*** If you're using Bayer Advantage for fleas, it IS imidicoprid.
If all is well with your pets on that, well and good.
BUT is is worth noting that Imidicloprid is a known trigger of seizures in "susceptible individuals."

Of course, the only way you know that your child or pet is "susceptible" is when they have that first seizure.
Or that first cluster of seizures.

In the case of our old dog, Frodo, Orthene triggered seizures.
It's not something you want to have to watch, trust me on this.

Jeri

Hundreds are manageable, and I'm glad you were able to keep up on a small coloney. Some people have 10s of thousands, and unfortnately organic methods, treating lawns, soapy water, garlic spray ... etc do not work, not even for an hour. =(

On my other comp, I just noticed a pic I took of my son in the front yard. I noticed 2 trees which my neighbor & I each have. They continued the pick & bathe method (along with the assistance of neighborhood kids every day), and we eventually resorted to spray. Our tree looks a little ragged from the beetle attack, but their tree was completely brown. Truthfully, I don't even think their tree survived. When beetles are so bad that they kill, they need to be stopped.

I understand what you are saying, as you haven't experienced what a lot of us have. I just have to take exception to anyone stating that JBs can be controlled by soapy water. They absolutely cannot in infested areas.

Wow, I didn't know they were that bad there. Here they are pretty much only on my roses, and my tiny cherry tree. If I had hundreds in a large tree then I'd certainly start looking at insecticides. Have you tried Milky Spore? It seems like it would help reduce the population in your area but it might take a few years. I don't know how well it works myself but from what I've read it is supposed to be quite effective as a long term solution.

I've grown roses in Ohio, California, Texas and Virginia and have been active in various rose clubs along the way. In all these no-spray gardens I never had a serious problem with thrips or spider mites-- but I religiously "douche" my roses weekly with cold water with a special spray attachment. In every club the members who were continually waging war on spider mites and thrips were the same members who had intensive spray programs. I've come to believe insecticides cause more problems than they cure. I have been watching for aphids this spring-- they're here, the sparrows are out there eating them off the potted pansies & on the roses that are partway leafed out. I went out to see how many aphids remained. Couldn't find any! Go birds!

Gail, I'm surprised that you have such a flea problem. I wonder if it's because you have a lawn (if indeed you do). We have no lawns and our cat and dog have almost no fleas. When I do see them scratching I use a flea comb to get rid of the fleas. I keep a bowl of water mixed with a little dishwashing liquid and drop the fleas in that. I really believe having no tall weeds and no lawns has been the answer to the flea problem for us, and frankly lawns to me are not at all eco-friendly, and rather ludicrous, although I mean no offense by this, in Southern California, a semi-desert, water-poor environment. Sometimes choices have to be made, and for me avoiding the use of poisons is an easy choice. And no lawns means more roses and other plants that attract birds and insects. Sorry, I hope I didn't offend and I don't mean to preach; each person must make choices according to his own situation.

Regards,

Ingrid

Odd, how the forest service conclusions don't match the content in the report.

"In honey bees, imidacloprid at very low doses has been shown to cause mortality and adverse effects on laboratory-conditioned behavioral responses associated with feeding. However, adverse impacts of imidacloprid on foraging and colony vitality under field conditions have yet to be demonstrated." It goes on: "In fact, key studies suggest that imidacloprid may not induce the same learned avoidance behavior in honey bees that have been demonstrated in birds."

"In short, laboratory studies demonstrate that imidacloprid is acutely toxic to bees at low doses, (48-hour LD50 values ranging from 3.7 to 230.3 ng/bee) and has sub-lethal effects on behavior and the insect nervous system at even lower doses (e.g., 0.1 ng/bee)."

"Given that imidacloprid is a neurotoxic insecticide, it is no surprise that honey bees and parasitic wasps are among the most sensitive species tested."

"Fish, amphibians and aquatic algae are less sensitive to imidacloprid than certain aquatic invertebrates in terms of survival and growth. Among aquatic invertebrates, arthropods such as chironomid and mysid species are extremely sensitive to imidacloprid exposure, with observed adverse effects on survival, growth and reproductive success.

"Imidacloprid is also applied to the skin of dogs and cats to control fleas (imidacloprid and permethrin are the active ingredients in K9-Advantix® which is effective against mosquitos, fleas and ticks; imidacloprid is the active ingredient in Advantage®, which is only effective against fleas). It is of interest to note that topically applied imidacloprid spreads out in the superficial lipid layer of the skin, where it remains effective until the dog sheds that layer. Systemic absorption of imidacloprid is irrelevant to its efficacy in killing fleas. The fleas are killed upon contact with the pet dander, and donÂt need to bite the pet. Fleas exposed to dogs previously treated with imidacloprid, but whose fur had been cleansed of all active material, were not killed."

I love Advantage, I had terrible flea problems in the past with fleas brought into the house but not any more. I would not think, however, that treated dogs would have any effect on bee populations.

Merit is only to be used once a month. Most rose folks I know who use it say that once every six weeks is enough in their gardens.

I use it only once in spring to combat rose slugs (sawfly larvae, which otherwise would chew the leaves to lace).

We have plenty of earthworms, bees and sparrows in and around the rose beds.

I spray Merit very sparingly about once per month mainly when it is thrip season. I spray only the very tops of my rosebushes where all the new growth and flower buds are. This seems to control the insects and not harm my beneficials. One thing I do that is very important is to spray late in the evening when the bees and other beneficials are done for the day and back in their homes. The Merit dries overnight so that the benficials are not exposed to the wet insecticide and that is very important to do.
I found out a few years ago that overuse of these insecticides kill the beneficials that kill/eat spider mites. That overuse led to a serious outbreak of spider mites in the summer to the point that I had to treat for them as well. It was a vicious circle. I am much more careful now, and have been successful now in eliminating/controlling the original pest such as thrips and not killing the good guys and ending up with the spider mite infestations.
John

Merit seems to kill everything that is bug/wormlike; are spider mites immune to it?

I will confirm with mehearty that yes, they really are that bad here (JBs). I use Bayer directly on the beetles on sometimes a daily basis while they're active. You can hand pick into soapy water til the cows come home, to no effect whatsoever.

I wish it was like Karl says "a little insect damage on your plants". I could live with that, such as I do with the damage from aphids, sawfly larvae, rose chafers, etc. But with an uncontrolled JB population, all buds, flowers, and then leaves can be eaten to the point of nothing left.

And yes, I have used milky spore.

There are so many roses out there that stay perfectly healthy with no spray. So many beneficial insects that keep nature perking along. I sprayed the first couple of years when I started growing roses, and noticed that I didn't have butterflies or bees, so I stopped the spraying. If a rose doesn't stay clean and healthy, I just replace it with one that does. I now have butterflies, bees, ladybugs, and all manner of little critters. Also beautiful roses. Keeping them well fed and watered seems to help them take care of themselves.

I don't spray insecticides, but honestly Mrskjun, I doubt keeping roses well fed and watered will help them keep their leaves (am not talking even about buds) during 8 weeks of JBs infestation. At least it doesn't work for me. And yes, I do use Milky spore, many years in a row, just in case. Obviously people who say JBs can be picked into soapy water or like Karl talk about "a little insect damage on your plants" don't know what is "real" infestation. I have a big tree in a public area close to me. It is really big tree, kind of trunk so thick that you need several people to hug it. Three years in a row it was defoliated completely and last year finally died. So insects can kill the plants, even trees.
Olga

Just to repeat the message:

If you think soapy water will do the job; if you think hand-picking is adequate; if you think good rose culture will do the job; if you think milky spore is the answer, actually, if you think anything at all is the answer; then you may have japanese beetles but you don't have JAPANESE BEETLES.

Amen, Mike.

Here we go yet again on our semi-annual thread where people without JB infestations try to advise those of us who do have infestations on how we must be doing something "wrong". My roses are very well-grown in excellent soil, plenty of sun and water, etc. If anything, the JBs are probably more attracted to lush, healthy roses than those that aren't well-cared for.

The sheer population numbers and damage caused by JBs are just so utterly horrific that I guess it must be hard for those in non-JB territory to imagine.

You might be able to select varieties for disease-resistance, but a JB will eat any rose regardless of how well-suited it is to your area.

I used Milky spore for two years many years ago. It didnÂt help much. I might be wrong but I seem to remember that milky spore had to be applied to the lawn. However, I found JB grubs even in hanging baskets when I changed the potting soil in spring.

Last year, probably due to the drought we didn't have many JBs despite failing to use grub killers on the lawn. But yesterday, when DH dug a hole for a new rose on the north side of the property line - no lawn there and it is an area we hadn't used so far, he said that in that small area he found too many JB grubs to count. So this year we should treat that area, too.

I admit that my JB problem is far from being as bad as Olga's or Harry's whose past JB photos caused me serious nightmares. I would not dare to advise anyone not to do something just because my problem is not as serious as theirs.

Although we can get away with relatively low frequency use of Merit, we must use something against mosquitoes if we want to step aside the house at all from early spring to late fall. I would not like to be told off because we spray against mosquitoes by people living in dry climates where mosquitoes are not a serious problem.

By the way, our bees are fine. As to birds there are so many that we never have the chance to taste the fruits of the trees we planted to harvest tree ripen fruits.

I spray fungicides when I am well enough to do that. It does not effect the birds at all - they prefer to build nests among the big roses or up in the climbers. In pruning time I find more nests than I was aware of. I mention this because some think that fungicides kill birds. They don't.

Nevertheless, if you live in a happy climate where you do not have to spray anything, don't ever do that. Enjoy life without these unpleasant chores. The problem is, as I see it, that those who live in those happy climates do not have first hand experience about the effect of various treatments but rely only on various advocacy reports.

I believe that it was Auburn University (and I know someone will correct me if I am wrong) who said your neighbors all within 20 miles would have to use Milky Spore for it to be effective against an infestation of Japanese Beetles.

"like Karl talk about "a little insect damage on your plants" don't know what is "real" infestation.

Sorry Olga but I do know what a "real" JB infestation is. I live in a rural area surrounded by soybean fields. They like soybeans about as much as they like roses.
Driving in my area during JB season is like driving in a hail storm. Many of my roses are covered with globs of JBs.
I choose to ignore them rather than spray toxic insecticide in a futile attempt to control them. I could kill every JB within a block of my home and still have as many when they begin appearing in the soybean fields. So, why bother?
The personal satisfaction I get from smashing, squishing, or nuking them on my property does little to the overall population.
And yes, my rose leaves will look like lace with no blooms. They'll look that way regardless of what steps I'd take.
While my method doesn't kill JBs, neither does it wipe out the butterfly, bees, or predatory insect population which I can enjoy before and after they arrive. I'd rather have a 12 month haven for the good bugs and birds, than a lifeless garden as a result of eliminating 4 weeks of severe JB problems.
Before you say anything, I realize they hang around longer in many areas. I see a few well into late summer but not enough to get excited.
Like I said, I choose to ignore them, knowing I'll be able to enjoy my roses again after they're gone.
Perhaps they leave me alone because I don't get all excited when I see them. Maybe they sense your disgust of them so more of them show up at your place.
And then maybe the healthy environment in my yard discourages them.
Whatever it is, I don't let them get my dander up!
"Don't worry, Be Happy!"
Spring, summer, Japanese beetles, heat, drought, fall, winter, and crap happens. Jumping up and down and complaining won't stop them, nor will spraying toxic insecticides every other day.
Grub control products are most effective when applied just after the eggs hatch from mid August to mid September. Applied in the spring the grubs are too mature and the insecticides have little effect. Spring applied lawn insecticides for JB grub control is a waste of money.
Milky spore takes a good 4-5 years to be really effective. It can then live in the soil for up to 20 years. You have to be patient if you apply it and not expect instant results.

Milky spore takes a good 4-5 years to be really effective. It can then live in the soil for up to 20 years. You have to be patient if you apply it and not expect instant results.

That's why I mentioned that 1.) I applied it many years ago (probably 8 years ago); 2.) I seem to remember that it should be applied to the lawn but JBs put grubs everywhere not only in lawn area. I have no idea what the grubs eat in a weedy but otherwise barren spot but there were too many of them to kill them all.

I did find spring grub killer application effective but it is true that the best result would be to apply it twice - spring and early fall. We are just never so well organized to do 2 applications. I still prefer it to spraying although I do spray if I have to. Not much, usually late evening, and aimed at the buds only.

I think Karl has made a good point: Spray control is a personal choice. There are so many variables, including whether the spray will even be effective, or whether on the other hand it would be like 'spraying' in the wind.

I think each of us should make an informed choice, and others should respect that choice.

Karl, have I told you lately that I love you?
;-)

Jeri

Thanks Karl!

Yes, many of us know about the heartbreak of "JB infestation."

We have one show at the Muddassippi Fair that our club supports a little bit later in the year during the height of JB madness. In an effort to bring some color in, many of us use bridal veil on selected goodies. It is hard to get a good seal as the little precious things are quite able to gain entry if one is sloppy about your knots with the elastic cord to hold the bridal veil in place.

In the past I tried to "go organic," but the neighbors who already think that I am LITTLE strange anyways grew fearful of me running around with my little ice cream bucket filled with zee soapy solution screaming: Die! Die!

One year I lost it and nuked everything with Sevin.

The last few years I have divided up my garden into thirds and sprayed the Sevin in one area at a time a couple of weeks apart. This seemed to give the good bugs time to migrate and not get totaly killed off. After the Fair, I don't care --- kind of.

Foghorn

Karl, by the way if you read my post, my first phrase was that I do NOT use any insecticides. So in a way a have the same approach as you do, just wait on them. So I don't know where did you take all this points about me being disgusted with JBs and that I don't have a healthy environment. I do :).
Olga

I think the problem is that when people hear you are spraying, they imagine a man in a space suit with a huge backpack sprayer atomizing over the entire yard. That is not the case.

When I spray fungicide, I only spray my roses and the mulch underneath them.

If I decide to use an insecticide, I only spray the insects. I try to avoid actually spraying the plants. One year we had 3 crepe myrtles infested with JBs. They partially denuded the trees. We were able to save them by spraying. One year we used traps and all it did was attract 10x the bugs to my yard and not many went in the traps. So once a week for a month I went out and sprayed as many of the M-fers as I could. At least they weren't laying eggs in my yard for next year.

Last year I had very little JB infestation. I was able to do the hand pick method. I even squished a few between my bare fingers. It was wonderful (the lack of JBs, not the squishing). I finally got to see some of my roses bloom in July.

Insecticide is a tool to be used wisely, like pruners.

I hate Japanese Beetles.

I won't use Seven on them and milky spore is useless to me as I live on a golf course and I just can't afford to cover the whole thing. Last year I suffered thru them trying to convince myself that they were just doing a midsummer pruning for me.

This year the folks at Ashdown Roses and Organic Plant Healthcare here in Charlotte are coming out with an all natural answer for JB's called Goodbye Beetles. It isn't out yet but I'll provide a link to a JB conversation on another board where Paul Zimmerman talks about the product. I plan on trying it this year.

Carole

Here is a link that might be useful: Peter Beales Rose Forum

I wonder what is the active ingridients in this organic Goodbuy Beetles. I hope it is not neem again, because it doesn't work.
Olga

I seem to have a horrible thrip problem. It lasts all summer long. I can get almost no clean roses without spraying for thrips. Thats why I spray the Merit. I have used conserve and it doesn't work at all for me. I was under the impression that Merit was easy on environment, but after some investigation, obviously not. Later, the JBs and corn beatles flood my area. Merit doesn't work on corn beatles, but works on JBs. I had been mixing Merit with fungicide and spraying whole plant. I know now that was wrong. Maybe I can get away with a light dusting on top of flower every 2 weeks or so. Is there a biological control or other more gentle chemical that will control thrips?

I apologize if anyone thought I was trying to tell them how to "run" their own garden. Mine is a personal choice, that works for me. I was just sharing it.

Merit and JBs. I put the Merit in a hand held spray bottle (cosmetic size) and spray the buds before they open. This gets the beetles, but doesn't expose the bees since they work in the opened bloom. I have a neighbor with three thriving colonies of bees. We discussed this at some length. Otherwise I don't spray insecticides. I'm working with milky spore and praying someone will come up with a JB specific solution. We have june bugs too. They are easier in that they tend to lay eggs in the same area. We can kill grubs in that area and manage the population to some extent.

As bad as my JB problem is, I really don't spray much. I use one trigger spray bottle of Bayer with Merit per season. A little squirt for each clump of beetles. I discontinued treating my lawn last year because it didn't seem to be having any effect. Neighbors' lawns produce sufficient beetles.

Handpicking is still my primary defense for beetles. I will continue experimenting with traps, but wonder if the cyclical nature of the JB's makes this folly. This summer there will be no traps to begin, with a report to the Forum with observations.

Rose Midge seem to have me beaten. Without treatment, I get zero blooms after mid June. It's either treat the soil or give up growing roses.

We have plenty of birds, earthworms, and bees. Northern Cardinals nest in our yard. I've spread granular Merit on the ground for JB and midge control. Last year I started using Merit/Cyfluthrin granules on the ground for midge control. I also started spraying BT for caterpillers last year, adding it to the regular fungicide spray, but only after seeing them make their annual appearance on the cherry tree.

I will basically use Neem Oil for both insects and fungus. However, I really don't spray for insects.

As far as Japanese Beetles, I use milky spore in the lawn, but if there are to many JBs to handle with soapy water and a jar, You can always cover the roses you want to keep with a netting. There's just no way to get rid of JBs. Even if you and your neighbors treat with milky spore, they still come from open areas as much as a half mile away. I would love to eradicate those little monsters but not as the cost of my other lovely insects and worms.

Merit seems to kill everything that is bug/wormlike; are spider mites immune to it?

Merit is an insecticide. We often forget that spider mites are not insects, they are arachnids. So you need a miticide for them, not an insecticide.

Here is a link that might be useful: A lot about Spider Mites

Worms are not insects. Merit reportedly kills worms. So I am asking if Merit also kills mites.

No, lucille, Merit does not kill spider mites.

Lucille, imidacloprid by itself actually seems to stimulate spider mite reproduction. For that reason, imidacloprid is usually sold as a mixture with cyfluthrin, which is both an insecticide and a miticide. The Bayer Advanced Garden insecticides are mostly formulated this way.

Thanks, I did not realize that.

Belatedly, I've realized that I thought it was Gail in California who had a flea problem, and not Patricia43, who lives in humid Alabama. At any rate I felt my comments had been inappropriate and apologized to Gail in an e-mail, and then came to realize I had addressed the wrong person. Apologies to all. I'll try to keep alert and oriented from now on.

Ingrid

This is a great thread. I really want to be pesticide free. But, for about 3 months last season I lost every bloom to rose midge. The only approach that finally worked were repeated applications of Merit.

If someone has a more friendly solution, I'm interested. But, I'm pretty sure I've tried all the conventional pesticides without success.

Ladybugs, spores, anything that will work on rose midge?

What a relief to read all these comments. I hate spraying chemicals due to poor lungs and that involves everything from my rose garden to cleaning house and doing laundry.

I liken Neem to salad dressing. Spray it and the aphids belly up to the salad bar. It does a pretty good job on the early spring powdery mildew, though. The birds like the increase in aphids and my cats like the increase in the bird population. Got my own little Survivor show going on, lol.

After doing some research I discovered that a product available at Lowe's contains the same chemical that is the main ingredient in Merit. It is 1/3 the cost and should work the same...

Do you think it would work the same?

Here is a link that might be useful: Bayer Advanced Garden - Tree and Shrub Insect Control

It should. Isn't it funny that almost every fertilizer, fungicide etc. that designated for roses cost so much more?

"If you think soapy water will do the job; if you think hand-picking is adequate; if you think good rose culture will do the job; if you think milky spore is the answer, actually, if you think anything at all is the answer; then you may have japanese beetles but you don't have JAPANESE BEETLES.

I couldn't have said it any better. I don't like spraying insecticides but when it comes to Japanese Beetles it is either spray the BAYER or resign yourself to not having any roses during the summer. Soapy water?! What a joke.

Here is a link that might be useful: Japanese Beetle feeding frenzy

Decobug, I used that Bayer product (Tree and Shrub) and it did kill thrips. What I did is I mixed it up in a spray bottle and sprayed the mixture inside slighly open blooms, filling them up with the mixture. It did kill the thrips. Sometimes I'd have to reapply if more thrips went in there.

I stop spraying the bloom when it becomes more open, because then bees might be present and usually once the bloom opens, the thrips leave.