Why is urine beneficial to growing crops, please do not bother with antecdotal evidence, that's all over the place. Can someone post the information (including it's source) indicating the amount (by wt., % or volume) of urea in human urine, can't seem to find it anywhere for some reason other than my posted link. As with any fertilizer source, it is important for me to know how much of a given nutrient is being applied with urine.

Urea is an endogenous product of protein and aminoacid catabolism, and consequently
20-35 g of urea is excreted daily in human urine.

The majority of fluid output occurs via the urine, approximately 1500 ml/day (approx 1.59 qt/day) in the normal adult resting state.

So I would assume that, depending on your size and metabolism, you can figure out approximately how much urea you are dealing with.

Here is a link that might be useful: Long scientific verbage writeup.

According to the Wikipedia article referenced above, urine has 9.3 grams/liter of Urea. Since urea is 46% nitrgen, that would place 4.3 grams of N in a liter of urine, giving it an N component of 0.43. I assume P and K are significantly lower, so liquid urine is basically 0.4-0-0.

Not clear from that number why people are so excited about it. It certainly doesn't seem that it needs to be diluted because of the N content, but maybe to reduce the sodium.

Josko: No to be picky but you are thinking of fertilizer urea as being 46% N. Actually, urea is CO(NH2)2 with a molecular wt. of 60.03. mol. wt. of N = 14.01 therefore, 14.01/60.03 = 0.23. So urea in urine is 23% N.

I'm not all that excited about the tiny fraction of N in urine. Even if I had a 1000 gal carboy of it, that would still only be 20 lb of N in it. Besides, at 1.59 qts. of whiz/day, it would take me 2,516 days to pee that much. Guess I better drink a lot of water and beer:)

On the brighter side, every gal of pee would have about 0.02 lb. of N in it. If the gal. of pee were run through a drip injection system over a 1000 sq. ft. garden it would deliver about 0.87 lb/A N. Not bad for 3 days worth of pee, I guess.

Disclaimer check my math and please report any errors; otherwise, use at your own risk!

Very quick estimate assuming: 20 lbs of N per 1000 gallons of urine (from michael357), goal ratio is 30:1 C:N, sawdust is not completely fresh at 400:1.

My back of the envelope math gives roughly 12 gallons per pound of sawdust... it sounds way off to me but then again I'm not sure how much volume there is to a pound of dry sawdust.

( 12*(20/1000) + 400 ) / 13 = 30.8

I am excited about it because it is free and plentiful. No, it's not the apply a couple of times a year and walk away method, but I don't have to buy it.

I may be taxed on it at some point, but so far it's free.

Anubis - great math. I had no idea how to go about that!

I'm assuming that the quick figures you entered would mean to completely change the sawdust into a balanced mixture of carbon and nitrogen. That would make it compost very quickly, but as that is not the goal, I can figure on contact area.

Soooooooooooo... How deep does the pull of nitrogen extend as the sawdust is decomposing? If we say 1/4 inch deep into the soil, and generously give 1/4 inch of sawdust doing the pulling...

One square foot of sawdust in soil contact would be 36 cubic inches of sawdust. That seems high... Am I figuring incorrectly?

OK, let me go about it differently. If I were to weigh a square foot of 1/4 inch thick dry sawdust, how much would it weigh? Maybe 3 ounces? Which would be roughly 3 gallons of urine to completely decompose it.

Man that can't be right. LOL Can you imagine 3 gallons of urine poured over 3 ounces of sawdust? It would completely overwhelm the carbon.

I'm getting to the point of just throw down sawdust for mulch rows along the bushes, leaving a few inches clear area around the trunk, and pour some diluted urine near the trunk on a weekly basis.

I just hate wasting money that I don't have right now. I've killed so many blueberry bushes in my life. I'm like the evil nemesis that blueberries go to see on horror flick nights in Blueberryville.

I guess I'll have to write the book if/when I figure it out, since no one else has done it yet. LOL

Here is my experiment (that I tried to use to prove the PEE People wrong), though it was a home trial.
I added the Urea to a gallon of water twice last summer to three hosta's. And by "added Urea" I am meaning fresh from the source what ever came out at that time. The plants were next to each other, 10 feet away in the same line, same types of Hosta, same soil, same planting date on all plants, same size. The ones I used urea to, doubled in size.
I know I could cut back the water because it was more like 50:1 or higher but I just wanted to try and it and not burn anything. Well I don't need any more convincing and The point brought up earlier that its a gallon of water not wasted down the toilet is a good one.

I just wont use it on vegatables or compost going to any thing edible. I cant get past the ICK factor.

I don't see why you would worry about using it on veggie compost. The critters we rely on to break it all down are tiny little chemists and they take all this stuff and break it down to the basic elements that plants use to grow strong and healthy.

I say; Don't worry about your compost; Piss on it. ;)

Whether urine is good nor not doesn't really concern me...I love peeing outside and I'm not worried that it will harm my compost at all. On top of that, my water bill decreases even further by not "leaving it mellow."

I don't recommend storing large quantities of it in plastic jugs in your house though, unless you loosen the cap every couple days...otherwise it can gain some pressure and cause a mess!

I've been reading this since you posted, immediately thought of a local blueberry grower who annually puts down several inches of oak sawdust as mulch/pH adjustment. The soil here is acidic, liming to neutralise is a standard treatment. Blueberries want the acid.

"I have alkaline soil and need to amend it well to plant them. I wonder if I can make my clay soil, 6.5 PH, hospitable to blueberry bushes by mixing sawdust..."

6.5pH isn't alkaline.

Anubis' calculation of C/N for sawdust is probably correct- using urine to break down sawdust will essentially require soaking, and there are factors regarding species and what constitutes "dry" sawdust that impact time involved.

I see blueberries growing wild in the most godforsaken looking barren rockiness...have you ever had a soil test done?

As for your general premise, yeah, it's a good fertiliser though I'd be leery of those taking meds, B.C. or undergoing chemo.

Yes, I've had soil tests done. 6.5 is alkaline for my blueberries.

You are right though, it isn't alkaline in general, though it is standard procedure around here for the farmers to lime the hay fields. I imagine the grass must like a less acid soil, and that helps.

I have used urine in garden/farm for many years (20+ years). It's a precious fertilizer because it contains not only N/P/K,but also the "other" elements necessary for plant growth, as we are at the top of the food-chain.

However, I have used very different methods applying urine in my garden from most of the posts in this forum.

1. I DO NOT dilute it with water.
2. I DO NOT put it in the compost pile.

I'd first put urine in milk jars and store the jars in my shed (especially in winter). Check the jars frequently for signs of leak (especially in winter, not summer).

In gardening season, I'd dig holes 1' apart along the rows about 6" deep and 6"~8" away from the root. Feed urine from jars to the holes (do not allow over-flow). As soon as urine disappears into the bottom of the holes, cover the holes by dirt and lightly compress it. Do not delay.

The reason I don't like diluting with water is that urine becomes unsterile very quickly. I wanted to eliminate all the mid-steps as much as possible.

The reason I don't like to put it on compost pile is that it may leach/vaporize quickly if one puts too much urine and/or not cover it by dirt.

Hope my experice helps

chaff

Very interesting. Nope, I have not heard of anyone else doing it that way.

How wide are the holes?

To gooseberryfool,

Depending on the plants, the size of the holes can be that of a coffee mug or twice as wide but same depth. Tomatoes or corns may require larger/deeper holes. For cucumbers the holes should be smaller. A full 1g milk jar of urine can distribute evenly to about 20 holes.

Using this method allows me to put fresh urine into the holes as well. Just be careful don't let urine in direct contact of the roots.

Hope you can try it out and see the result.

Chaff

Berryman: for the sake of brevity, just type, "PEEple" :)

Perhaps You PEEple should have your own forum, with ICK factor warnings, I will join, but under a different alias.

I got this kind reply in the mail in response to some questions I sent out to random victims. :oP

"As far as I�m concerned, you can start obtaining piles of sawdust and peeing on it. Keep a shovel handy in case it starts to smell, and cover it up. The sawdust will turn black as it rots. When it's black you can use it as a soil conditioner. Using urine straight, as a fertilizer, is too salty for most plant roots (two different salts are involved), but by using the abundant N to balance the C in the sawdust, you should get good results and the excess salts will leach away. I once built a garden using blackened sawdust from a horse stable. My thought is that you will use rotted sawdust as a soil conditioner for your planting sites, and then mulch with your endless supply of fresh sawdust."

This cracks me up....
When I was a kid, people said don't take Acid or you'll get flashbacks...
of course as a kid, I thought
" cool.... Flashbacks for free" as though I was getting a "two for one deal"

Now I am hearing don't use your urine for edible plants if you are taking medication .... hummmmmm

Would that mean,I could be getting a free low dose of my prescription, with each cucumber ;-)

two for one....if you will ;-)

Jon, you may have a point... I take the Flo-max generic. Finesteride I think its called...
Anyway, I cannot give blood anymore.. If a pregnat lady gets it by blood transfusion it will/can affect the baby very negatively. Hate I cannot give blood but I also don't make this fertilizer 3 or 4 times a night anymore ...

Only recently discovered that Urine could be used as a fertilizer and accelerator to composters so found this blog very interesting. I also found the attached which some of you might find interesting although it does not give any info on dilution, still confused about that bit.

http://www.susana.org/docs_ccbk/susana_download/2-1084-08-urineuseenglish.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: ROSA

Is beer induced urine better? ;)

A couple of weeks ago I came across this discussion of some place in China where prized hard boiled eggs were pickled in the urine of prepubescent boys. I studied clinical urinalysis as part of my university program and I see no reason why it would not be an ideal way to preserve boiled eggs. I intended to save the link for all you here with a urine fetish but right now I have misplace the link. Should I find it I will come back to this thread.

What about diseases in urine like Hepatitis B? Especially if using someone else's pee? And once again using someone else's, is there any issue with like antibiotics, acetaminophen, ibuprofen etc. or anything that can be passed on through.

I would also like to draw attention to the small matter of how effing gross it would be to soak your food in some kid's piss.

... by gargwarb ... small matter of how effing gross it would be to soak your food in some kid's piss.

Could Urine-Boiled Eggs Be China's Next Big Food Export?

Eggs boiled in children's urine a Chinese delicacy!

There are more references. Many, like the second link above, feel the way gargwarb, quoted above.

You are what you eat. Thats what I am told. Same thing goes for the plants. Think about it.

So....vegans are going to become vegetables?? I better start eating 2x4's cuz a wanna be a stud. lmao!

I have just recently discovered the concept of using urine as fertilizer. Being a passionate composter, gardener, and sustainability enthusiast, I would like to try it.
Diluting 1:20 seems to use a lot of water. What do you think about adding lime to either straight urine or urine diluted say 1:5 to lessen the acidity and/or salt? I cannot really find anything helpful on the web about this, and certainly cannot ask anyone in my small-ish Midwestern town.
Thanks for your input!

So....vegans are going to become vegetables?? I better start eating 2x4's cuz a wanna be a stud. lmao!

That is funny! Thanks for the laugh. Running to Home Depot to pick up some lumber...

According to the Wikipedia article referenced above, urine has 9.3 grams/liter of Urea. Since urea is 46% nitrgen, that would place 4.3 grams of N in a liter of urine, giving it an N component of 0.43. I assume P and K are significantly lower, so liquid urine is basically 0.4-0-0.

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine#Agriculture where they approximate urine to have an N-P-K around 11-1-2.

Also, not sure I would put straight urine around my plants. I would think it would burn them. I know peeing on the grass would cause it to die rapidly.

Thanks for the link. I agree, putting straight urine on grass or plants is a bad idea. I do not want to do that. All of the sources that I found in my research recommended 1:10, 1:15, or 1:20 dilution ratio.
I was just wondering if anyone had any practical knowledge about possible ways to cut the salinity and/or acidity of the urine so that the water dilution ratio could be a bit smaller. Possibly lime? Or something better? I was hoping to conserve a little water and fert organically, but this is probably a pipe dream. If there was an easy way, everyone would be doing it! Or at least there would probably be more information available. Thanks

The simple and elegant solution is to pee in the compost while it is in the early stages of creation, and not in the garden or in water that is added to the garden.

Having eaten jellyfish, pigs eyes, grilled horse, sea urchin, and bull testicles, and very likely some rather stringy dog in Viet Nam, I hope I don't have to go all the way to China to get me some of those eggs.

Is beer induced urine better? ;)
===============

My compost pile sure does think it is

I've been able to make brown gold this winter from grass clippings and this past year's leaves and what I call, "filtered" beer :-)

My pile is pitch black and teaming with worms.

It's mostly a myth that urine is acidic.

It has a pH of about 6 - 7 for morning pees. It goes up after that. You can buy pH strips to test it yourself.

But if you store it for a week the pH goes above 8.

So it is really alkaline if you just store it for a few days.

Thanks Emgardener, that is good to hear. Any thoughts on how to ameliorate the salinity? Also, I thought as it sits, the nitrogen (the fertilizer bit) turns to ammonia, is that wrong? Wouldn't that be too caustic? Wikipedia said of ammonia,
"Approximately 83% (as of 2004) of ammonia is used as fertilizers either as its salts or as solutions. When applied to soil, it helps provide increased yields of crops such as corn and wheat. Consuming more than 1% of all man-made power, the production of ammonia is a significant component of the world energy budget."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
Hhhmmm... These are the things that I am trying to figure out.

I found this re ammonia and pH article:
"Use of Human Urine Fertilizer in Cultivation of Cabbage (Brassica oleracea)--Impacts on Chemical, Microbial, and Flavor Quality"
Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry 2007, 55, 8657-8663
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/jf0717891
"Urea is rapidly degraded by urease to ammonium and water, which may elevate pH values up to a pH of 9; this can also reduce the bacterial population, although ammonia evaporation is also higher at higher pH values."

It also recommends storing the urine for 1-2 months and diluting with water. Too bad it did not specify water ratio or mention salinity.

This article has useful data on salinity values and dilution:
"Making Your Own Liquid Fertilizer"

http://www.motherearthnews.com/uploadedFiles/articles/issues/2011-02-01/Liquid%20Fertilizers%20-%20Full%20Report%20-%20Woods%20End%20Laboratories.pdf

The Walden Effect Homestead Blog talks about salinity too, they said,
"Carol Steinfeld recommends using urine as fertilizer only in regions with regular rainfall to wash salt away. A high tech option consists of buying a Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) meter from a hydroponics store to monitor salt content of your urine, then diluting the urine down to 1,700 ppm salt before using it as fertilizer. Alternatively, just spread urine around a lot, never focusing on one part of the garden, and salt buildup will probably be minimal."

http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/What_is_in_urine__63__/

I think that I will try Bill's elegant suggestion (thanks Bill!) and also try diluting 1:20 for the perennials and lawn and see how it goes. Thanks everyone!

I've been using urine for a few years now.

For garden annuals and perennials I don't dilute at all, just pour it straight on.

I did experiment on a small tomato plant (1 foot high) to see how much direct urine would kill it. It took about 2 cups poured directly on the stem. I had poured 2 cups about 1 foot away the plant and the plant enjoyed it.

Just pick a "volunteer" plant and try to kill it with urine. You'll get a good feel for how much is too much and up to what volume the plant enjoys.

About salt, I just stopped using the salt shaker at home.
I did compare the salt in urine to a normal dilution of chemical fertilizer. (I evaporated equal volumes of urine and chemical liquid fertilizer in separate cups and compared the residual salts). Chemical fertilizers applied at a normal recommended rate seem to contain much more salts than urine, so I stopped worrying about it.

I found this link below which has some additional elements found in urine. Also, lets not forget that many trace elements are eliminated via urine like moly, magnesium, ca, copper etc. There were probably too many to mention in the article, but I have researched and found that they are contained in varying degrees in urine, so it can also provide the valuable trace elements. Finally, I don't think the ratio numbers are set in stone, so for example, if your diet is higher in K from eating fresh vegetables and fruit, you will eliminate more of it etc.

Here is a link that might be useful: urine as fertilizer

Salinity: I don't really think there is a practical way (in the home garden) to remove salinity while keeping the NPK. It's theoretically possible but way too complicated to do at home. So you have to manage the process with that in mind.

Drugs: There is a lot we don't know about this, but a few things we do know:

1) All drugs do not go right through you into the urine untouched. Some are metabolized into other compounds, and some are excreted otherwise than in the urine.

2) While we don't know what dose of any given drug will affect soil or plants or people eating the plants, keep in mind you are taking milligrams at a time, and that a 20x20 ft. garden has about 40,000 lb of soil just in the top foot.

3) Some drugs and metabolites will further decompose in the soil or compost.

4) Plants don't take up everything they see in the soil, nor do they deposit what they take up evenly throughout the plant.

It's a crapshoot, but not something I worry about very much based on all this.

So I was wondering about storage. I was trying to find a high N ingredient to break down wood chunks and sawdust faster and at first I tried to get large quantities of UCG, but found that they r difficult to acquire in my immediate area. so I said piss on it (pun intended). I have been using a gal. jug to collect the urine and then emptying it in the compost pile every night for the last several nights. I was afraid to keep it to long because I was concerned about it turning into ammonia and i thought that that was something to be avoided, but, like was said earlier, ammonia is is used extensively as a fertilizer. So the question is how long am I able to keep it around? and/or should it be aged? or should I just use fresh? I also want to thank the maker of this thread, EXCELLENT conversation. I was thinking that I was alone and crazy there for a while.

Props to gooseberryfool!

I wasn't about to read all the posts, but wanted to say I use it with wood ash and coffee grounds as my main fertilizers. I am not a eco nut, its just that they are free. Be careful to use urine when needed. It's good when you need the green spring development I try to pee at the root bases of shrubs, bushes, and veg more in the spring. I pee outside all the time, no need to collect. The trick is making sure you don't hit new growth or germinating seeds. I also use my dryer line for a couple of Boston ferns and some peppers "in 70% shade" and they outgrow/produce the standard veg that are in full sun.

I reread the whole thread, and for those who say it doesn't make much difference, I say there are 6 billion of us, and when humans do something it can have quite an effect on the planet. Sewage treatment plants are designed to remove nutrients from wastewater, and most of the N goes into the air. Phosphorus is extremely polluting for waterways and valuable for growing crops. If even 1% of pee was put back on the land...

BTW I noticed an error earlier in the thread where someone said urea was 46% N and someone else replied with calculations showing it was 23%. There was actually an error in those calculations. Urea is 46% N whether it's in a bag of fertilizer or dissolved in urine.

I agree Tox, it would be highly significant if even 20-30 percent of urine were captured out of the waste stream to be used for edible crops.

There were some studies done in Scandinavia indicating that a person's urine can be used to fertilize crop growth nearly equal to that person's caloric consumption. I found and read about a couple of them on the web a few years ago.

Amazing. The biosphere is (was) more or less self-sustaining, before we starting mucking with it. :-]

Higher-than-normal levels of estrogen in pregnant women's urine, scientists speculated, may stimulate the germination of seeds -- From an unrelated news story, Slate perhaps.

Hello,,, I am interested in this, lately articles about using urine as fertilizer has crossed my path.. I dont know what all the fuss is. What is better urine, or poo from some animal.

Personally I think that using urine is very convenient, and possibly the plan all along... No need to haul in animal dung, when you can just pee...

I read an article about the porta potty companies recycling the waste deposited in them, into chemicals..

We use lotions that regularly use Urea, that urea my just come from your neighbors pee deposited in a porta potty.

What would be better?

Here is a link that might be useful: Blue Yonder Soap

karen, the waste deposited in porta potties are chemicals. Those chemicals are just refined into more pure chemicals.

That refined urea will have less sodium than urine and that could be a good thing if you are growing on sodic soil.

urine is great. just dillute it to 5-10%.

Karen, are you really interested in fertilizing with urine or are you selling soap?

Most of the 200 million tons made each year is produced by combining ammonia (sythesized using natural gas, btw) with carbon dioxide. It's certainly not made from porta potty waste.

So, I'm currently experimenting using potted soil outside. I mix the golden fertilizer directly into peat moss and perlite, about a pint per cubic foot. I take a ph reading. It starts as highly acid (ph around 5) but the nutrient level is high. To bring it down, I water the soil with two gallons of water per teaspoon of baking soda, and add about a half pint of wood ash. I'm fixing to burn old deer bones I find in the woods, in fact, any bones I can find or use after making soup. Once I burn the bones, I'll mix the ash with the soil. This will increase the alkalinity of the soil and provide phosphoros and calcium. Since I live near the ocean, I'll also grind in some seaweed. Once the process is complete, I'll measure the outcome. It will probably be too concentrated (hopefully) but I can then mix this whole mixture into different concentrations of soil and experiment. I also have a commercial testing kit, so once I have my ingredients mixed, I'll test.

A question for you all.. I've heard that if urine stands, it will eventually turn more alkali. Anyone know anything about that?