The Frisco/Black Beauty/Abracadabra set of clones from Kordes are nearly thornless (you inspired me to go check my plants -- I found 2 thorns each on 2 full sized four foot tall plants). It is hard to come by these plants however under their real names in the U.S. But, no fear, the same exact plants have been renamed in the U.S. as mini floras and are available retail under the names Top Contender (yellow), Memphis Magis (dark red), and Memphis Music (striped yellow and red). You can purchase all three of them at Two Sisters Roses and here's a link. Be forewarned however that these are band size plants and will need a year or two to grow up. My other suggestion for you would be to email the good folks at Palatine Roses in Canada. They carry most of the Kordes roses as bareroots, and since Kordes seems to select their florist variety roses for having a minimum of thorns, I would bet that they could help you. Good Luck Kathy Here is a link that might be useful: Memphis Magic at Two Sisters Roses

Barb, much of that depends upon the types of roses you're ordering, the time of year they are shipped/received and how immature (soft) they are. 25 years ago, it was a common issue with Heirloom plants as so often they were barely rooted, very soft cuttings which had gone from the green houses to the boxes for shipping. If they arrived to you in your harshest weather, they were doomed. They were frequently doomed for me here in desert-like conditions because of the intensity of the sunlight, heat and aridity. I lost count of their plants I lost due to their immaturity and soft condition due to being too recently grown under glass. Those were two often repeated complaints in early ARS publications about the "cheap roses from greenhouse growers" and was a major reason (along with speed) traditional propagation went to field budding. If you're ordering tender types, whether they are hardened off and sufficiently developed or not, and they are received at your time of worst frost, you may experience problems, But, if you ordered from Roses Unlimited and received leafed out plants straight from the greenhouses, then tried to keep them unprotected outside in your coldest weather, you'd have the same issues. Vintage and Burlington are our two, final mail order rose sources here. Both are owned and operated by honorable, reputable, intelligent people with decades of rose experience and more than passing knowledge of what to expect from their products in harsher climates then they've been grown it. From experience, when presented with questions they are unsure of, they seek the best advice available from their networks as to the best information to give. Certainly they all have enough experience to answer the vast majority of them on their own. If your climate, time of year, special conditions and situations cause you hesitation, I would hope all considering ordering would feel comfortable enough to ask them their advice. My experience with both is they will graciously let you know whether the specific stock is mature enough, hardened off enough to handle any special circumstances which concern you. Of course, some varieties sell out more quickly than others, and some produce much less material suitable for propagation each season, plus their weather and climates don't always cooperate, either. Hence, their available plants may sometimes be less mature or developed than is their norm. But, they also may have older stock of some varieties which may be more suitable for your harsher conditions. I know they will happily make every effort to send the most appropriate plant for your needs whenever possible. All anyone has to do is ask. Your satisfaction, even pleasure with their plants and service is their life blood, and both of them know it. They wouldn't have been in this business as successfully nor as long as they have unless they took as great a pleasure in taking as good care of you as possible. Kim

Thanks for the info, Sherry. I'll keep that in mind. My DH just finished a patio with patio blocks and I had planned to site SDLM along one edge of the patio where we (I) could enjoy her blooms and fragrance better. Fewer thorns will certainly be a plus. I'm hoping the plants I receive from Chamblees are a decent size. Sometimes they are smaller and need a bit of babying. I have ordered from them in the past, both here and in PA, and have almost always been happy. When I wasn't, they made it right. Unfortunately, ordering roses means paying big $$ for shipping :( I'll be digging out hardpan sand sometime soon to ready for the roses--I know from your blog that you've had a similar experience :) Marcia

I like to use the Peter Beales Classic Roses website for things like this. You can choose to search by thorniness, and they have a category for 'No Thorns' and 'Not Many Thorns' or similar. Then next to each rose, if you click on them, they have a thorniness rating from 0 to 10, with 0 being smooth roses like Zeffy and 10 being some hard-core rugosas. I only have a few 100% thorn-free roses, including Zephirine Drouhin and her sports Kathleen Harrop and Martha, Reines des Violettes, the banksia roses, and Renae (can't get Annie Laurie McDowell here in Oz, so I must settle for Renae). I'm pretty sure the Hybrid Musk rose Nur Mahal is totally smooth too. The other roses I have with hardly any thorns are all Noisettes and Chinas, and I don't know how they would go for you in zone 6, but I can tell you about them if you would like. Other than that, a couple of my Austin's have hardly any thorns at all - somewhere between 0 and 1 on your scale - Windermere is a good example. I am also told that the Delbard climber called Nahema is almost smooth (DA's Heritage is one of its parents, which is not particularly thorny for me, so that figures), it's also very fragrant, repeat blooming, and has very double blooms, so it may be worth looking into. (I certainly will be!). This post was edited by muscovyduckling on Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 3:34