We are in SoCal, and if we were to buy a budded rose (which we haven't, for a long time) we WOULD bury it!

When we bury the budunion, the roses eventually transition onto their own roots. It's a GOOD thing!

Jeri

I don't normally bury the bud union either. When I fist started plating, I read that for my zone (7) I should have the bud union 2 inches above the soil.

Jeri,

So why is it rarely done here?

Too funny, I was only thinking of this today too. As it is also recommended to plant roses with bud union above soil level in our area too. Well, I just do not want to do that anymore. Why should we have to look at that, sometimes, ugly bud union, when others are having great success planting it below soil level. Too I hear of folks here saying that it will often develop it's own roots underground. I look at that as development of a stronger plant.

Anyhow, I am not going to do that any more. All roses from now on will have the bud union below soild level.

Thanks for bringing this up.
Pauline - Vancouver Island.

I never plant the bud union more than about an inch above ground, and that's usually by accident. I try to bury the bud union most of the time. Or plant it at ground level. In our hot summer, if the bud union isn't buried or at least covered with mulch, the sun will fry it and possibly kill the plant. It's bad enough when the lower canes get so burnt they dieback!

But then Californians are a let it all hang out kind of folk anyway. Why shouldn't their roses be?

I've read that some rose varieties do better grafted than on their own roots, so that may be why the bud unions are above the soil, so as to provide better rose blooms from that type of rose that does not do so well on its own roots. I think historically that was why the graft was first devised. Jackson and Perkins are offering some older varieties on own roots, but some still have to be grafted, apparently.

I think the conventional wisdom was that if the bud union was buried in a warm zone, it could be susceptible to fungus and disease. That really doesn't seem to make much sense since in colder zones, where the bud unions are buried, it does get warm in the summer.

I'm not going to do it anymore, but most of the new roses I buy are own root anyway.

And yes, bud unions are extremely ugly to look at. Luckily most of mine are hidden by leaves in the growing season.

Bury the bud union anywhere you live on any rootstock you use. First it prevents wind rock which loosens a plant in the soil. Secondly as Jeri points out the rose goes own root which is a good thing.

Perhaps we were told to not bury the bud union because some roses could not survive without an artifical understock to push them along - hence going own root is not good. That begs the question should the rose have been released as a garden rose in the first place if it is that weak? Just my two cents.

I was always under the impression that a rose would produce more flowers if the bud union was hit by the sun. We bury them below only to protect from freezing sub zero temps....like today....wind chills of 25 BELOW??? ):

Jeri mentions that Multiflora rootstock is short lived in California. Conversely, Dr. Huey, the most popular rootsock, thrives in the west. For a long time, westerners figured there was an advantage to keeping the rose on DH. Now folks seem to favor own root just about everywhere.

Could this go back to the late 1800's when there was more of a study of how particular roses would grow better?
There would be lists of which roses should be grown as dwarfs and which should be grown as standards?
(Dwarfs being roses grown on short shanked grafts; standards being more like the standards/rose tress of today.)
Then then, keeping the roots warm, especially for the real tea roses, was also presumed to be important.

I always bury the bud union. I was told not to by a small rose grower and chose to ignore him. I've never had a problem.

I've noticed that some people are attached to the look of a single basal growing out of the ground. If that were my preference, I would not bury the bud union in California.

In the first couple of years I planted the roses with bud union above soil and was desperate if some sunk. Then I found out that my soil and Dr. Huey are not on very friendly terms. So we replanted those roses deeper in the hope that they would grow own root; most of them did.

I order mostly multiflora grafted roses in the past 5 years and experimented with own roots. We plant multiflora grafted roses at soil line or just below soil line - I would not mind if they go own root sooner or later. I have no idea why but a lot of own roots have been doing very poorly.

I agree with Paul in principle but I would not like to be without Gloire de Dijon and Marechal Niel that said to be doing better if grafted. Just two examples but there are more. SDLM is also among those that do better grafted - I have 2 excellent own roots and 2 on multiflora - the grafted ones do much better.

I don't think it makes all that much difference where you place the bud union. When we were still zone 5 (before the new maps came out) my Mom planted her roses with the bud union AT ground level for all of the 40 some years she grew roses. She never buried the bud union and never winter protected anything. In all that time I can only think of 2 roses she lost to the winter, Peace and Taboo. I plant mine a little below ground level and they usually end up deeper over time anyway and I mulch heavily for winter protection and I lost a bunch last spring. I do think they look better with the bud planted deep and I agree with Paul that having that bud union 4 inches above ground is asking for wind rock.

OK, I guess Multiflora dies off out west. Do other rootstocks die off, too, when they're planted deep and the plant sets its own roots? Or do you have to deal with the rootstock suckering? Just curious.

I guess Dr. Huey will die off here in Florida, but unless the plant is a China or near relative, so will the plant that own-roots.

Sherry

I had been taught to plant the bud union at ground level before I moved to CA. I had grown roses in Missouri and Alabama. Mom and Memom said to ignore instructions that came with roses saying to plant the bud union in the air. They said roses didn't live as long with the bud union exposed. I believed them. We were of the opinion that the instructions were so nurseries could sell more roses when the roses with exposed bud unions died....

I've noticed that some people are attached to the look of a single basal growing out of the ground.

Ha ha ha! That's a good one!

I've got mostly own-root now, but when I first planted roses, my garden books said to have the bud union 2" above ground. I thought it was so you could see if a new cane was root-stock or not. How do you tell what a cane comes from if you bury the union?

My current Sunset Western Garden book (1995 version) still says to have the bud union just above ground: "Even growers in zones 1-3 find this successful, and plants produce more canes when planted this way". Maybe I should splurge on an new revised edition - my fourth version.

I bet Sunset WGB won't have changed that. It's sort of "gospel."
How d'you know if a cane is a sucker? Look at the cane. Look at the foliage.
Compare that new growth to the growth that has come from the scion. If it is radically different, it's a sucker.
You will get to where you recognize it immediately.
We had one plant of Tradescant that put out almost no growth from the bud union. 90% of its canes turned out to be
Dr. Huey.

Jeri

But if you bury the bud union, how will you know if the cane
coming up is a sucker or not?
I prefer own-root anyway, though I still have some graphted
roses.

Devon, I look at the cane and foliage. Dr Huey and I are old friends. I even keep a couple in the yard. We rarely get suckers but they are easy to recognise or at least tell they aren't the same type as the rose it is supposed to be. I'm not as familiar with other rootstocks but would do the same thing. I still prefer grafted roses. I don't have the time or inclination to find out if each rose does well on its own roots in our soil. Dr. Huey gives me a good baseline to start with.

The point may well become moot, as fewer and fewer growers offer budded roses. This is happening chiefly for economic reasons.

Yes, there ARE some roses that will not perform on their own roots.
The last position on that which we heard from Dr. Zary, was echoed by Tom Carruth:
that they will no longer introduce roses that won't grow on their own roots.
What will happen following the sale of J&P I do not know.
However, without the huge growing fields in Wasco
I'd bet on budding being phased out, there.

Jeri

I'm surprised there are grafted roses still available at all Jeri. Been expecting them to only be available as custom orders for years. Glad a friend's prediction around 1990 that they would gone by 2000 wasn't accurate.

I think it's a lot closer now, tho, Dave.

:-)

Jeri

Jeri and Dave:
I was looking at the J&P website (didn't get a catalog in the mail, even though I bought a Jubilee Celebration from them last year, hmph). Last year they sold own-roots as "New Generation", but this year I couldn't find that category. I assumed that meant they were out of the own-root business. Are you saying that all of their roses are going own-root?
Maureen

Well, the growing grounds in Wasco were sold separately.
That would seem to indicate that, if they are going to field-grow roses, they aren't going to grow'em in Wasco.
Or, probably anywhere in California.
Remember -- the J&P that coined the phrase "New Generation" no longer really exists.

Jeri

Won't bet against you on that Jeri.

Maureen, Jeri is much better informed on that than I. The discussion I had back then was with a friend that was grafting some roses Deb and I took to him. A huge rose nursery had just been built around the corner from Gene's place. Deb and I had stopped there on the way. Watching Gene I mentioned how much work was involved grafting all the roses we had seen there. It was just 2 guys talking about the cost of grafting each plant and finding workers that could (and would) do it.
That huge nursery on Elder Creek Rd in Sacramento is gone now.

It was just 2 guys talking about the cost of grafting each plant and finding workers that could (and would) do it.

*** Keith Zary said that the principal reason for the shift was the difficulty of finding people who could/would do the
work for the low salary the companies could afford.
This is very skilled, backbreaking stoop labor. EYE sure wouldn't do it 8 hours a day!

I said, well, it would also go a way toward ending the constant cycle of RMV.
Keith din't wanna discuss that.

Of course, this was long before the sale of the company, when they were introducing "New Gen."

I've HEARD that the people who bought J&P have a tissue culture operation.
If true, I think that would indicate a shift in production methods?

Ya know, the old Armstrong Roses Co. built the Somis, CA facility that J&P now uses.
It's about 3 miles from here.
It has a huge tissue culture facility, which is shuttered and dis-used.
Armstrong basically went broke over it. The public, then, was not ready to accept small, own-root plants.
But it WOULD go a long way toward ending the RMV cycle, so I'm all for it.

Jeri

In the 80's when I started, I was told not to bury it because then I would know if a new shoot was a sucker if it was coming up from below soil level. Now I bury all my bud unions below the soil to encourage rooting. I add sand to the soil around the lower canes and it seems to encourage more rooting somehow.