Phoebe, I truly can't help you because my conditions are so different from yours. I would say that my climate is on the cusp between Mediterranean and continental. We have hot dry summers with low humidity, and so relatively fresh nights, and wet winters that give lots of chill hours but during which the temperature rarely falls below 20F. Our soil is heavy clay, probably either neutral or somwhat alkaline (I've never had it tested). As you see, conditions that are very different from yours. That's why I didn't respond to your post: I knew that my experiences wouldn't be relevant to your area. I hope other gardeners from the eastern and central U.S. have spoken and will speak up. They're the ones you need to hear from. About brief bloom because of heat, yes, that's happened to me too. I plant my Gallicas in the coolest parts of my garden, in part shade, which helps, but they need a mild spring to be really good. Centifolias likewise appreciate part shade and cooler conditions, while Albas and Damasks seem to be more tolerant of sun and heat. I would like to hear what others have to say about that. Melissa

I live in Zone 10 southern California, but within the coastal zone which has misty conditions spring-earkt summer, then settles into a true Mediterranean climate by August which continues till December when the rains start. Many roses will mildew, ball and sulk here during spring - early summer, and then after the dry weather takes over in August, the same sulky roses will bloom beautifully and have clean foliage till December. I tried growing Carefree Beauty last year - probably planted it in June - a nice healthy ownroot rose from ARE with really strong roots. After the first few weeks in the ground and a promising initial burst of growth, CB just sulked and mildewed. It did not improve after the dry sunny late summer settled in, so I shovelpruned it in December. I sometimes gift unhappy roses to a friend's garden in Topanga Canyon which tho inland from Malibu has 100+ temps in the summer, and these roses are often very happy there as long as they get enough water. So maybe CB would do better in a more classic southern California climate than my microclimate provides.

Thanks, everyone, for all this input! Greybird, you've put my suspicions into words: I could be wrong, but I'm not happy at the idea of trying Noisettes in extremely compact clay. I'm tempted to try again with 'Ispahan', since I know that roses will grow in this area, unlike where I had it before, where I've never gotten anything at all to live, much less flourish. I'm greatly tempted to try R. hemosphaerica in the other available space, as the R. foetida varieties do quite well in this bed. They grow slowly, but they look happy and they flower. I have 'Kazanlik' a little further down, also in miserable soil. It grows, flowers, and spreads, though I can't say it's as cheerful as I'd like. Generally the Damasks and near descendents seem the class best able to handle this area, along with the R. foetida varieties. And then there are the other individual varieties that surprise me by their toughness, as I wrote at the start of my thread. I've never gotten excited by the Eglantines, though I know that sooner or later one or two are going to find their way into my garden, for the scented foliage. mudbird, I have several yellow Noisettes, including a 'Reve d'Or' charmingly given me as a gift that's waiting for a home. 'Jaune Desprez' and 'Maréchal Niel' are both growing well in quite poor soil, 'Duchesse d'Auerstaedt' is splendid, in slightly better conditions. Although these roses are anything but pampered, they're still not living out there in full sun, full wind, a long way away from a hose, in the worst ground in the garden (well, say, on a scale of 0 to 100, worst to best, this ground is about 5). I'm skeptical about them. By the way, my 'Jaune Desprez' was also slow to start, but now it's twenty feet high and still growing. It has a lovely scent, and has been putting out a few flowers all summer since its spring bloom. Mine is in part shade, but gets plenty of heat. nastarana, I don't know whether those two varieties are available in Europe, either, but they're definitely not to be gotten from the nursery I'm planning to order from. I will keep your recommendation in mind. The hybrid Banksiaes would be too big for the areas I have in mind. Also, I had 'Purezza' nearby in a terrible spot: it died. I suspect that elms strangled it. Anyway, they need to go somewhere else. I have to abandon the computer for a bit, but intend to finish later. Melissa

Below is the info. that Floweraremusic (zone 5) in Washington gave on her 2020 winter-survival. She has alkaline clay with rocks at bottom like mine & less snow in winter: "My hardiest roses are the Canadians. John Davis, John Cabot, Wm. Baffin, Morden Sunrise, Morden Blush and Morden Centennial, Victorian Memory aka Isabelle Skinner, also a Canadian rose. All these only have tiny bit of tip damage and bloom a lot with no special care. Also, my Hybrid Perpetuals only have tip damage after winter. Magna Charta, Mrs. John Laing, Black Prince and Marchesa Buccella. The only negative is they don’t have long enough cutting stems. All my Austins are very hardy. The one I just can not grow is Jude. Leonardo da Vinci is super hardy and always healthy. Quietness comes through winter very well. Even Rouge Royale survives beautifully. Cinderella Fairy Tale is very hardy. Gruss an Aachen also. Ballerina and Marjorie Fair are both hardy. Poseidon, Princess Charlene de Monaco and Crazy Love didn’t do as well as I’d hoped. The surprise losses this year are Quicksilver, and Dames de Chenonceau who is left with only 1 cane. Versigny is also reduced down to almost nothing. This was a mild winter with very little snow. " Floweraremusic (zone 5). From StrawChicago (zone 5a with hard black-gumbo alkaline clay & less snow but with freezing rain in winter). Versigny didn't survive winter either. So I lost Versigny TWICE. Besides Versigny, other wimpy own-root roses that don't survive winter well: Paul Neyron, Anna's Promise, Pink Peace (own-root died 1st winter, but grafted-Pink Peace survives many winter), Elantyne, Jude the Obscure, Young Lycidas (bought as grafted-on-Dr.Huey, now with only one cane), Mary Daly, and many floribundas don't survive my zone 5a: Pink Chiffon, Sheila's perfume, King Arthur, Deep Purple, Shocking blue, Honey Bouquet (survived 1 winter). Polka Climber (survived 1 winter), Cloutilde Soupert (died twice on me). Sutter's Gold didn't survive winter, same with many fragrant mini-roses from Burlington nursery. Below are my hardy OWN-ROOT roses in my zone 5a alkaline clay, only Double Delight, Young Lycidas and Lavender Crush are grafted-on-Dr.Huey. Bold-faced are the very vigorous ones: Own-roots with 3 feet of green canes: Carding Mill (since 2012), Princess Charlene of Monaco, Duchess de Rohan, Crown Princess Magareta (since 2012), Zepherine Drouhin, Lady of Shalott, James Galway, Lavender Crush, Queen of Sweden (gave away but very hardy), Poseidon (right below the rain-spout, dug down to 2.5 feet), Scepter'd Isle (very big & hardy own-root but gave that away with its lousy scent). Own-roots with 2 feet of green canes: La Reine (many winters), Blue Mist (since 2012), Prairie Harvest (since 2014), Mary Magdalene (since 2011), Evelyn (since 2012), Radio Times (since 2011), Pat Austin (since 2011), Christopher Marlowe (since 2011), Golden Celebration (since 2011), Lilian Austin (gave away but very hardy), the Squire, the Dark Lady, Wise Portia survived 4 winters but died in poor drainage clay, Dee-lish (since 2015), Twilight Zone (since 2016), William Shakespeare. 2000 (since 2011), Comte de Chambord (since 2012), Princess Anne, Sweet Mademoiselles, Aloha climber, Orchid Romance, Bohemian Rhapsody, Marie Pavie, Lagerfeld (since 2017), Frederic Mistral survived 2 winters but died when I didn't winter-protect with leaves, Sonia Rykiel (survived 3 winters) but died in freezing rain winter, same with 1/4 of the street-trees in my neighborhood, Excellenz von Shubert (since 2013), Own-roots with less than 1 foot of green canes: Gina's rose, Tchaikosky (since 2015), Cornelia (since 2018), Bolero (few winters), Peter Mayle, Sharifa Asma, Neil Diamond, Amber Queen, A Shopshire Lad, Strike it Rich, Old Port (since 2012), Veteran's Honor (many winters), Double Delight (grafted on Dr.Huey), Savannah, Tess of d'Uberville, Gene Boerner (since 2014), thornless Yves Seedling (since 2013), Stephen big Purple (since 2012), Louise Este, Mirandy, Crimson Glory, Liv Tyler survived 1 winter but needs winter-protection, Rouge Royal (bought last year with no winter-protection). Annie L. McDowell (survived 2 winters but needs a wet-spot since it's almost thornless), Nahema (survived 1 winter then died during freezing-rain winter), same with Eyes-for-you (drought-tolerant and doesn't like freezing wet winter), Souvenir du President Lincoln, Madame Issac Pererie and Madame Earnest Calvat, Firefighter (survived 2 winters) but died since it's next to tree. Bayes Blueberry (survived many winters but I gave away), Charles Darwin (gave away since it fades badly), Arthur Bell (since 2012 & killed it since I don't like the flowers). StrawChicago.