Could be. It appears to be chlorotic to me, which is a combination of iron and nitrogen deficiency. Alfalfa will eventually release nitrogen, but may rob it until it begins digesting. China Doll greatly resembles its multiflora ancestors in a number of ways. The potential and symptoms of chlorosis are two. Correction may come with increased temps and digestion of the alfalfa and its release of nitrogen assisting in the release and absorption of iron. Of course, there are other methods from which you may choose to correct the issue. Kim

Kim,
Please don't keep me in suspense! What are the "other methods" , or what is the best method to correct the issue?

And should I save the Alfalfa for warm weather in the future? ( I really don't know what I'm doing, I just wanted to give my roses an organic treat.)

Thank you for your help.
Gracin

G-in-fl, That white growth doesn't appear to be chlorotic to me -- it appears to be a case of albinism. Albino growth can appear on any plant, and is usually genetic in origin. The abnormality generally does not affect the whole plant unless it appears when the plant is a seedling.

The white growth you're seeing will probably be able to persist for a short while, but only because it's drawing strength from other (normal) parts of the plant. Were it a seedling showing albinism, the life of the plant would be very brief indeed.

If the white growth is appearing only on one stem, chances are that the mutation (or genetic abnormality), originated at the juncture where that stem meets the rest of the plant.

Assuming I'm correct that only one stem is involved, my advice is to cut the abnormal growth at its point of origin on the plant. Once the albino growth is removed, it's not likely to reappear.

I don't think for an instant that alfalfa is the culprit here. I would advise you, however, to go easy on pumping nutrients of any kind onto/into young plants acclimating to a new environment. It's possible to kill with kindness . . .

Albinism is a possibility. There is a way of checking to determine if that is the culprit.

I've seen the whitish growth you've illustrated on many multiflora type roses. Multiflora doesn't secrete acidic secretions in its root zone as Huey does. They are much more susceptible to chlorosis issues in alkaline conditions and whenever, where ever nitrogen and iron are deficient, for whatever reasons. There have been threads previously detailing how alfalfa and other organics can affect growth and performance on various types of soils and conditions, until they begin doing their jobs.

If you want to determine if this is albinism or plain old chlorosis, make sure the drainage is sufficient. Treat with a water soluble, all purpose fertilizer making sure there is iron available. There are products which contain higher levels of iron, whether it's chelated or not. Follow the package directions for rates and frequencies. For water soluble types, actually spraying it over the foliage (foliar feeding) helps pretty quickly. Colder conditions can lead to chlorotic growth, many of which "heal" themselves with increasing temperatures. If that shoot is an albino, it won't green up. If it isn't, and it's a case of nitrogen and iron deficiency, providing supplemental iron and nitrogen should correct it. Kim

Since the veins are green, I very much doubt albinism, and strongly suspect iron deficiency. I'd check the soil pH, suspecting it's too high. Lower it, or use some chelated iron (in the soil, not on the leaves), and it will likely green up quickly.

Like Malcolm, I doubt albinism, and suspect iron deficiency.

In my highly-alkaline environment, I've seen this happen on roses from 'Reine des Violettes' to 'Excellenz von Schubert.' It's an "occupational hazard" here, for any rose with substantial multiflora background. And I can usually correct it by tinkering with the pH -- soil sulfur, usually, takes care of it in our garden -- our conditions.

YMMV, and I also agree with Malcolm's suggestion of chelated iron.

Jeri

I've seen growth on roses in my garden turn pale green or white like that following application of alfalfa. Not all by any means were multifloras. They didn't green up either until the alfalfa was removed. Re-application of alfalfa triggered the same issues. I suspect that in some combinations of soil/water that alfalfa may actually raise the ph of the soil, causing chlorosis.

Kim, what is the basis for saying Huey secretes acid in the root zone?

Melissa

In a previous thread, which I didn't bookmark, Strawberryhill reported how her roses suffered from alfalfa applications. I stated multiflora performs best on acidic soils and how Huey doesn't experience chlorosis as readily in alkalinity. She found the study which documented Huey's ability to acidify its root zone and posted the link to the information. Perhaps if she's around, she might be prevailed upon to repost the link? Kim

Hi Melissa: You asked the same question before and I dug up the link on cluster root secreting acid, a process called acid phosphatase. I posted that link in the rose forum last year. Here's another link on a different cluster-root system, white lupin. Lupin prefers acidic soil, 4.5 to 7. We used to grow that in acidic Michigan soil, and Lupin is a wimpy root, tiny cluster, whitish like own-root Comte de Chambord.

I dug up Dr. Huey (3 of them) - they are big & brown deep root, but still is a cluster-root system. If you google under IMAGE tab, Dr. Huey root, it will show up images of Dr. Huey.

This is from Wikipedia "Some plant roots, especially cluster roots, exude carboxylates that perform acid phosphatase activity, helping to mobilise phosphorus in nutrient-deficient soils."

That explains why some Austin roses, bred from a rainy climate, acidic soil (pH of rain is 5.6) is wimpy as own-roots and stingy in alkaline soil. Dr. Huey has the advantage of secreting acid to bring the pH of alkaline soil down, and unlock phosphorus tie-up in high pH.

Iron deficiency is common in alkaline soil. Roses grafted on Dr. Huey have less of that problem. Two University Extension documented the cholorosis from using alfalfa pellets. One on vegetable seedling, and the other on marigolds. Alfalfa pellets is gluey, and if spreaded too thick on the surface, can block the absorption of air and oxygen from above. If roots can't breath, the plant turn yellow.

This is from Wikipedia: "Air is the name given to the atmosphere used in breathing and photosynthesis. Dry air contains 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases."

Here is a link that might be useful: Cluster root and acid phosphatase

Here's the difference, documented by pictures in the RoseCare.com link below:

Veins are green = iron deficiency
Clear yellow leaves = nitrogen deficiency

Hi Gracin: Since your picture is taken in the shade, I can't tell much. I had 2 cases of nitrogen deficiency:

1) Austin rose Eglantyne as own-root. I planted it in wet clay soil, poor drainage. Roots can't breathe soaking wet like that, so the leaves turn yellow, then white, then dropped off. I moved Eglantyne to a drier spot with fluffy soil to allow air (78.09% nitrogen) to penetrate. It greened up by itself, nothing added.

2) Mirandy, own-root, was 3-inches tall. It was completely yellow. The nursery told me it rained a lot, and nitrogen got leached out from the band. It kept its leaves, and didn't fall off like Eglantyne. I gave it chemical nitrogen, didn't work, got leached out from our constant spring rain. I gave it blood meal (has tiny amount of iron, NPK 12-0-0).

Since blood meal sticks to the soil and is slower-released, Mirandy greened up. I moved it to the the ground and it's fine - that one needs more nitrogen and iron to grow properly.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures of nitrogen deficiency versus iron deficiency

In a previous thread, I agreed with MichaelG that nitrogen deficiency affects THE ENTIRE PLANT, and not just the top leaves. My Sonia Rykiel in a pot with too many holes that water passed through quickly, was yellowish. It greened up when I planted in the ground.

Iron deficiency with green-veins occur in alkaline soil like mine, pH of 7.7. I see that in my acid-loving plants rhodies and azaleas. Gracin, your Fortuniana root might not the best for your particular soil. The best way is to check your soil pH.

After wasting $$$ on pH meter that needs calibration, or kits that registered neutral on any substance! I wrote the procedure "testing soil pH using 50 cents red cabbage". My BS is in Computer Sience, with a minor in chemistry. The chemist in the Soil Forum thinks that's a great way to test your soil pH. See the link below on a fast way to test if your soil is alkaline, neutral, or acidic.

Wikipedia wrote: Iron deficiency is known as "lime-induced" chlorosis. A common problem is when the soil is too alkaline (the pH is above 6.5). Also, iron deficiency can develop if the soil is too waterlogged or has been overfertilised. Elements like calcium, zinc, manganese, phosphorus, or copper can tie up iron if they are present in high amounts.[1]

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

Yes, I remember asking strawberry before, and that she posted a link. But what I don't recall is that the article she cited mentioned Dr. Huey at all. It discussed that some plants had the ability to secrete acid in their roots, and I think it named various ones, but I don't believe that article said anything about Dr. Huey. So from that I took it that strawberry decided to interpret that article to cover Dr. Huey without the research to back it up. Or did I miss the explicit conclusion in that article that Dr. Huey secreted acid in his roots?

Now another article has been posted, this time about the white lupin. A rose is not the same thing as a lupin. And to use this article in support of the idea for acid secretion in a specific rose, Dr. Huey, is a big leap in logic.

Melissa

No, the information stated how specific root types had the capability. She observed how Huey possesses that type of roots. From historic observation and the wide acceptance of Huey, it is the most chlorosis resistant stock selection. This does not take into consideration any other traits such as cold hardiness, resistance to suckering, disease resistance, or any other, just that it is the least affected by chlorosis in highly alkaline and hot conditions. Kim

Respect of one's freedom is the foundation of our democratic society. I respect Melissa's objection, and I respect Kim's vast experience in grafting, rose-breeding, and plant nursery. I am free to present the info., and you are free to pick on me too. =)!

I had 20+ on Dr. Huey in my alkaline soil, pH 7.7 - they are always dark green. But I have chlorosis with 40+ own-roots, with Austin own-roots the worse.

Roses in zone 5a are quite small, I dig up plenty and move them around for winter survival. The ones that are most yellowish and stingy are the ones with the least-developed roots, like a few sticks of brown canes. The ones with the most blooms (mini-roses and Dr. Huey) are more hairy, in a cluster-root form.

I have 4 rhododrendrons and 4 azaleas - lower leaves are dark green, upper leaves are lighter green. They were originally planted in 1/2 peat moss and 1/2 alkaline clay. They bloomed well for the past decade.

Then I moved 2 rhododrendrons and fixed the soil with lots of afalfa meal - both rhodies turned dark brown. I was too lazy to dig them up. They improve after 2 years, but are always the color of Gracin's upper leaves: whitish-yellow. It's a big down-turn to their previous healthy green stage.

I mixed alfalfa meal into the planting hole of William Shakespeare 2000. After 1 year, I dug him up and he was encasted in concrete - the root could not expand in that glue-up of alfalfa and clay.

Last summer my neighbor gave me two large geranium plants. I planted one in my clay mixed with peatmoss and alfalfa meal. The other I didn't fix the soil. The one amended with peatmoss and alfalfa meal turned completely yellow (horrible looking!). The other is dark green and bloomed lots. That's when I started to question alfalfa, and dug up many roses amended with alfalfa meal - they all glued up, and my clay became concrete.

Back to Gracin's picture: I notice that only the top leaves are yellow-whitish, very much like my Eglantype in wet soil, being choked off oxygen & nitrogen. Eglantyne was planted in alfalfa mixed with horse manure and native clay. It might help to scrape off the glue-up surface layer of alfalfa pellets, to give the roots some air. Hopefully the new growth will green up.

Nitrogen-deficiency does not make it so whitish like that, and it affects the entire plant, and not just a few leaves on top. My Sonia Rykiel had nitrogen and iron deficiency when it was in a pot with a large hole at the bottom, causing constant leaching. I moved it to the ground, and gave it some blood meal, it greened up. See below for nitrogen and iron deficiency: the chlorotic leaves are Sonia Rykiel, the dark-green leaves are Golden Celebration.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 17:54

All of the new growth is this very light color. Some leaves are lighter than the leaves in this photo.

The plant is in a 15 gallon pot. It was planted in straight
Jungle growth Organic potting soil about 9 months ago from a 3 gallon pot. I don't know what the pH of commercial potting soil is. Sometime before the lightening of the leaves, I treated my beloved Weeping China Doll plant with alfalfa tea and for good measure, the residue was poured on top of the soil. To add insult to injury, as a new grower, I think I tend to over water.
WCD is outgrowing the 15 gal. pot and will be going into the ground in a couple weeks. The sugar sand soil (pH 4.9 - 5.5) will be amended with about 50 - 60% composted cow manure. I guess the cow manure will add Nitrogen, and all I will need is the chelated iron, right? Or do I need bone meal
along with the composted cow manure?

Gracin, that sounds like too much manure added to the sand. Perhaps others gardening in closer to what you are will add their two cents? I know here, I wouldn't dream of adding more than a third, at the very most, manure or other organics to this soil. It's not sugar sand, but it does drain excessively well.

If your potting soil drains appropriately, you can begin your chelated iron and/or all purpose water soluble fertilizer now when it's in the can. I'd scrape off any physical alfalfa from the top of the soil and scatter it lightly over your garden area so it incorporates into the soil, but not heavily in any one spot.

You definitely want to get your watering of that can under control! Too wet can cause similar to what you're seeing as if flushes out all the nitrogen and iron intake is improved with nitrogen.

Or, if you'd prefer, you can get your watering figured out and see if the color of the growth catches up to what you expect and begin fertilizing when you plant it. Any way you do it will work as long as you don't put too much of the manure in the ground and you get your watering figured out properly. Kim

Gracin, you'll want to add some good topsoil to your sand/organics mix - I would say 50/50 with the manure. I remember MichaelG said a long time ago that neither sand nor organics offer minerals to the plants, but topsoil does. I would be leery of the bagged stuff at Walmart. It looked like sand to me. I add pine fines, too. I've never seen white leaves like that, and I use lots of alfalfa, but I only grow multiflora types in pots since my soil is neutral and hasn't been kind to them in the past. As far as the quantity of organics, I've read that adding organics to sand reduces root-knot nematodes. That's why I add so much. Everything is eventually going to leach through, but in the meantime this combination comes as close to loam as I'm going to get. I found greensand (potassium) again recently and also got some 0-0-21 potassium (I didn't apply much - maybe 1/4 cup per plant. If anyone has better advise on how much to use, I'd appreciate it), and I've been adding at least 2 banana peels in the hole. Per Malcolm's suggestion I add a small handful of bonemeal at 3 points around the bottom of the hole. Also, I amend the whole bed not just the hole.

I'm wondering if topsoil should be added occasionally (when?) as top dressing. I add compost every spring but never topsoil. I wonder if MichaelG thinks it's necessary. I ask the question, but I'll probably never do anything about it. :(

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Gracin, I add cheap pure clay kitty litter to my mixture. I also put it a couple of inches deep in the bottom of the planting hole. I amend both the entire bed and the planting hole. Do you know if you have nematodes where you are?

Okay, Kim, Thanks.

Sherry, I can get Scott's topsoil at Lowe's. Do you know if it's any better than what WalMart carries?

And my local nursery has pine mulch that seems pretty fine.
I can sift out anything bigger than 1/2" or so.

And Floridarosez9 - I think I read that kitty litter counts as mineral content. I did not remember, that sand does not. DANG - there is sooo much to learn!

Hi Gracin: I'll work on what you wrote:
"WCD is outgrowing the 15 gal. pot ... The sugar sand soil (pH 4.9 - 5.5) will be amended with about 50 - 60% composted cow manure. I guess the cow manure will add Nitrogen, and all I will need is the chelated iron, right? Or do I need bone meal"

University of Georgia College of Agriculture stated that "Pine bark have a pH between 4.0 and 5.0 ... with 13% water-retention when fresh, and 21% water-retention when decomposed."

Gracin, your soil is already acidic, so pine bark and peatmoss are NOT good choices. NPK of cow manure is: 0.6 / 0.4 / 0.5 ... it's very balanced. You don't need chelated iron, since manure has iron. You don't need bonemeal, if you add lots of manure.

Contrary to on-line report that bone meal doesn't break down above neutral... it worked too well in my alkaline clay pH 7.7, when got rained on (pH of rain is 5.6). I dumped bonemeal around geraniums. Their blooms became vibrant deep colors, very pretty. But the plants got dwarfed and leaves got burnt. I put bone meal NPK of 1-13-0 into the planting hole of a white pine ... it burnt my white pine. Phosphorus at 13 was too high for my retentive clay.

Bonemeal is great if worked well into sandy soil like Sherry. Kitty litter is granulated clay ... good stuff for sandy soil. I tested the pH of Scott's top soil, it's neutral ... safe to use.

Zacklau in CT has acidic soil, he mentioned that his roses were sick, no fertilizer could solve the problem, until he fixed his acid soil with lime. Getting the pH to the neutral zone is more important that adding chemicals. The soil will release all the nutrients plants need when it's at the neutral zone.

I would test the pH of the cow manure. Fresh cow manure is reported at pH of 4. If they use lime to deodorize the floor, it will bring the pH up. If they bag the cow manure and add more lime in to keep the odor down, cow manure pH shoots up to 8.

I would test the pH of the soil, and the pH of the cow manure load to make sure that the combo is OK. Roses grow best at pH 6.5 to 7.

Cow manure and kitty clay would be enough. Cantigny park in zone 5a with 1,200 roses put forth the best display when they fertilized with fresh cow manure in spring. It stank up the park but that was their best: roses with shiny leaves, dark green, tons of blooms. Latter years they use chemical fertilizer high in phosphorus, tons of blooms - but the overall health is never as good as cow manure.

Horse manure also have iron. My neighbor ordered a pile of dirt with 1/2 "mushroom compost". I inspected his pile and saw mostly woodchips, the same stuff that I get from the stable. He topdressed his lawn with that, and has the deepest green lawn in the neighborhood. The woodchips that came with the manure made his lawn spotty.

If your pile is 100% cow manure, no woodchips bedding like horse stable .... then you have the best stuff possible. Even high phosphorus fertilizer can't beat the amount of blooms when roses are fed with manure. It's best to check the pH of your cow manure to see if it's acidic at 4 like some reported values of fresh cow manure.

Here is a link that might be useful: Testing soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Feb 23, 13 at 15:53

Hi Sherry: I can see why alfalfa usage in a sandy soil is no problem:

1) Sandy soil doesn't glue up with mix-in alfalfa meal like my sticky clay.

2) Alfalfa mixed with sandy soil doesn't glue up.
It gunks up when dried out on the surface of pots, or soil.

3) Multiflora rootstock is an invasive, spreading, and suckering type .... it gets more air. Other types of root would be more localized in one spot and would be more plugged-up with gunk-up alfalfa on top.

Besides Scott's topsoil with peatmoss (higher moisture retention), another choice would be humus sold in bags. Humus is composted leaves, great in moisture retention. The stuff in bags are more likely to be alkaline, they add lime for 2 reasons: 1) odor control 2) suppress fungal growth in bags.

Sherry asked about how best to use 0-0-21, or sulfate of potash magnesia. I found the link below that explained how to use 0-0-21. BTW, greensand is good stuff, Cathy in Ohio recommended that when I posted a thread on potassium.

Per Sherry's question of putting topsoil ON-TOP of sandy soil, I think it's a great idea. My neighbor showed me her best rose garden. She put sand UNDER our clay soil for better drainage. If she had mixed coarse sand with clay, she would had made hard potteries in the sun.

Roses' roots are shallow - mostly the top 6 inches of soil. Top-dressing with top soil mixed with manure, and humus (composted leaves), and kitty litter would trap the rain, so it won't leach down in sandy soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: Application guidelines for High potassium 0-0-21

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Feb 23, 13 at 17:02

Straw, the red cabbage pH testing sounds so cool. I'll get some red cabbage and get busy testing. I love the fact that I can test the amended soil mix without having to send to U. of F. for $7 a pop. My local county extension office offers free pH testing, but when I dropped of a sample of what i planned to plant my rose in, they were unable to give me and accurate reading because of the high organic content of the sample. After that, I knew buying a pH meter would be a waste of $.

I noticed something very interesting when checking my plants this afternoon. My two Mons. Tillers in 3 gal pots looked great. .. really green and healthy. I realized that they were the plants that I had mixed kitty litter in with the potting mix.

Thank you so much for all the help. I'm beginning to understand a little more all the time. :>)

Gracin, I have gotten several bags of Scott's Lawn Soil. I liked the looks of it, but I have no clue as to mineral content. I was just looking at my rose society's new member packet. It says 1/3 good topsoil mix (Fafard 3B or Jungle Growth), 1/3 gritty sand (the top few inches of our sandy soil could be used), 1/3 organic matter (dehydrated cow manure/mushroom compost/peat moss, etc). I just got this last Sunday. My gardening life would have been easier if I had had it five years ago at least confidence-wise, but with the advice I received here on ARF I did the right things.

Sorry about recommending the pine fines. I didn't notice that your sand has low pH. Re the alfalfa, I also put some in the bottom of the hole along with milorganite, about a cup each.

Gracin, thanks for the info on 0-0-21 potassium .I didn't realize it, but this 0-0-21 is pretty close to sul-po-mag which I have been looking for, and I found online that you apply sul-po-mag at the rate of 1 cup per bush once a year.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Hi Gracin: I have the same question about bone meal like you. I read many reports of phosphorus burns, including Alaska soluble fish fertilizer, More Bloom NPK of 0-10-10.

My white pine wasn't happy with bone meal in the planting hole. Eglantyne refused to bloom, and got burnt with 46% superphosphate in the planting hole, as recommended by Roses Unlimited. I traced Eglantyne lineage and found its Rugosa connection. Rugosa HATES fertilizer.

eHow stated: "Avoid using bone meal on acid-loving plants such as azaleas, camellias and rhododendrons." White pine and Rugosa prefers acidic soil.

My conclusion: don't use bone meal unless you have evidence of phosphorus deficiency, such as the soil report EarthCo. sent me, and the purplish-pinkish tinge on roses' stems. Ask Yahoo has this answer:

"For example, while certain plants just love Phosphorous (e.g. Tulips and many bulbs, as well as orchids setting blossoms), to certain plants (primarily Proteas and their relative), Phosphorous is a potent toxin that can kill them. In others, Phosphorous can cause imbalances that produce undesirable results. For instance, it may create a demand for nitrogen (i.e. result in an antagonism), which, if not supplied will result in stunting, poor vigour and eventual decline."

Horse manure and cow manure are best with balanced and slow-released NPK. They are more gentle on plants' roots.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Feb 24, 13 at 13:57