I bought Sugar Moon on Huey from Rosemania last year. It is a good disease free bloomer with OK fragrance, not that strong. I got some amazing looking flowers. Some looked like big round camellias in the cool weather. So I can see the moon reference. The rest of the year they were nice clean white blooms of average size but nicely repeating.

I like John Paul II much more. More flowers and much better fragrance. Really strong sweet fragrance and a nicely shaped fast growing plant.

I haven't grown the other two, but from growing an introduction year Secret for years and a Secret's Out for the past year, I can warn you this variety requires consistent moisture in arid areas. The flowers are gorgeous and fragrant with very low prickle counts. They've been totally healthy for me, growing and flowering well, BUT, let there be any water stress and the foliage is significantly adversely affected (browned leaf tips, yellowing) and the flowering shuts down quickly. Not to dissuade you from growing it, just an FYI in case your conditions seem similar. Kim

I ordered SECRETS OUT from Witherspoon Rose Culture a few yrs ago, before they put it out to other suppliers. I ended up getting a pure hot pink rose which they did not even try to ID for me. And they were supposed to send me a replacement the next yr due to it being the WRONG rose. They never did send it to me. I will never order from them again!! I got one last yr from Regan's. It didn't do well at all, and never produced a bloom at all. I noticed last month when I was out watering, it died on me. I guess I'll give up. I'd love to see other's pics tho.

Hmm, I guess I've had this longer than I remembered! Jannorcal posted photos of it from my garden in August, 2009. It was the exaggerated sepals which initially drew me to it as I've always loved 'crested sepals', one of the things I strive for in breeding. It has a beautiful shape, gorgeous coloring with none of the pink tones of the original and a marvelous fragrance. As long as you feed and water it enough, it is beautiful. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Secret's Out

Hmmm, Secret has always been a mildew magnet in my yard, so I never bothered to get Secret's Out.

I also think Pope John is the better rose of the three -- White Gold, PJP and Sugar Moon. I grow all three. Pope John Paul does MUCH better if you can find it grafted however. It is VERY slow to mature on its own roots. And even once matured, its a slow grower that way, which is the way it is most commonly sold by all the standard bareroot rose suppliers. Try to get it on Fortuniana if you can. Especially true if you are trying to get a mature plant by the time of that wedding.

Kstrong and others, a question about PJPII: A couple of people have said that it does its best in heat. This wedding will take place at the end of May or beginning of June. Some years that is a hot time, but most years the high heat of summer is still a few weeks away. Ought I to expect good bloom under those circumstances?

I have already ordered three 'White Gold' from Pickering (the only place I found it) to grow in large clay pots next to the herb garden, but I still want my five HTs for the raised bed next to the kitchen door, our main door. We are kitchen door people, even when entertaining.

Rosefolly

We never get that much heat here, and it still does okay for me. It probably would like more than we have, as it is a heavily petalled rose, and most of them prefer heat. But it does fine here. Does not ball, ever.

You folks convinced me so I went looking for PJPII. It looks as though all the mail-order vendors who offer it grafted are sold out. Any idea how it does on its own roots? I hate to go that way with only a year and a few months to get them up to speed.

Never mind. I just saw Kstrong's comments on PJPJII, very slow when own-root. I'm thinking I'd be better off getting it next year grafted, instead of bare root this year. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Or better off with Sugar Moon this year, perhaps. With bare root season running out, I feel pressure to make a quick decision.

Check with K&M Nursery. Give Jim a call. He'll do everything he can to help you.

Ken, thank! I did call K&M, and you were absolutely right. He could not have been more eager to help me. He has some PJPII but could not get into the houses to check right away because they were spraying. He'll be getting back to me, and if he has them, I will have four arriving next week. I'll know by tomorrow at the latest. (By the way I assume that "n-ga.mts" means 'North Georgia Mountains". I visited there last year and was seriously impressed by the beauty of the landscape.)

Kstrong, they will be on fortuniana as you suggested, in fact the first roses I ever bought that way. I have a couple roses from Pickering on multiflora; a few from other sources on Dr Huey, but the vast majority of my roses are own root. Thanks for giving me the heads up about vigor issue.

Now as to spacing, how far apart should they be planted? I do want a massed effect, but not to the detriment of the health of the plants.

Rosefolly

I would normally say 3 feet minimum between them, but you could get away with 2.5 feet for a "massed" effect. Be sure to feed them plenty. With all the growing that fortuniana does, it eats like not just a pig, but maybe a papa hog.

I think you will love this rose

Kstrong, I think I will stick with 3 foot spacing for the health of the plants. I had been thinking of 4 foot spacing so this will be some compression from my original plan. There are going to be white Dowdeswell delphiniums in this bed as well, so I imagine I'll be feeding the whole bed like mad. There is a large horse farm near me that offers the finest composted horse manure free. You just have to show up and load it, so I imagine I'll be layering it on with a generous shovel.

Thanks, Kitty. I think I will love it, too.

And my thanks to all of you. Everyone has been amazingly helpful and generous with advice. I'll post some pictures as the garden develops.

Rosefolly

Thanks very much for the recommendation on Pope JPII. I love this rose! My four plants are flourishing, gorgeous, full double roses of heavy old-fashioned form, and heavy in fragrance as well. I disbudded the first flush to allow the roses to grow, but was distracted when they put forth their second round of buds. The fortuniana rootstock is giving me a bit of trouble, but it looks more like Japanese maple than the rose scion, so I can spot it easily and remove it. I never grew roses grafted onto fortuniana before, just a dozen or so on Dr Huey and one or two on multiflora. Most of my roses are own-root. For this rose, and for the amount of growth in such a short time, it is well worth it.

Let your fort. bush's grow. Stake them up where needed. Next prunning season, DO NOT prune them hard. Just detwig and kind of shape the bush. Next season you will be amazed at what happens.

Thanks, Ken! You and Kstrong steered me well toward this exceptional rose, so I'll keep following your advice on this one.

Rosefolly

So any of you that grow White Gold..is your sort of rangey?

my sugarmoon rose

my sugar moon rose

I think that Sugar Moon is pretty, but I am in a coastal climate and mine gets rose rust fungus on the leaves.

Its hard for me to believe that PJP is a better rose than Sugar Moon. But after reading a few forums the consensus seems to be that PJP is probably the best white rose out there. I HAD to see for myself because it is hard for me to believe that anything white can top my Sugar Moon .. so this year, I am planting my first and hoping to see the results. I can say that I will be absolutely thrilled if PJP tops Sugar Moon. The fragrance from my SM is intoxicating. I do not get the "ok" fragrance. The blooms are huge and well formed and lasts a long time. My only gripe may be that it is not a prolific bloomer. However, I am a novice at growing roses, and because of space limitations, mine are all potted albeit large pots. I am also in SF where the weather can be overcast most of the summer. So disease is always a problem .. but thats true even for my most hardy roses. I did have the courage to prune properly this year (was always so scared to cut away all the growth progress) and this year, I see an explosion of buds, so very excited to see what the plant will look like in a few weeks. With PJP and SM on the team, I expect some dazzling displays.

In regard to the concern that mixing whites will make other whites look "dirty" .. here is my thought. I was disappointed in the very first white that I planted. I cant even remember what it is bc it was so long ago and the label has since disintegrated. It has an offwhite pink tinge to it and I was looking for pure white. However, now that I have the white that I had been searching for (Sugar Moon), rather than take away from the garden it adds variety, and I am actually very happy with the result. The flowers on this rose is much smaller however grows in greater flourishes (oftentimes growing in clusters). SM is a taller rose usually with an elegant stem while this rose is more bushy with smaller leaves and flowers. I see the addition of PJP competing with SM more than this little guy.

I'm about 40 miles from you, less coastal influence. The only disease I get with PJPII is rust in the fall. An awful lot of roses rust in the fall here. It blooms heavily in several cycles over the season.

All this does not mean that Sugar Moon may not also be a fine rose. There is more than one excellent rose in each category. HTs are not my main focus and I only have a few. But PJPII is definitely my favorite white. YMMV, and that is as it should be.

Rosefolly

I am a bit late to this party thread, but since I have all three I thought I would chime in.

1. Sugar Moon is my hand's down favorite white at this time, but it may be because I purchased healthier bushes than my PJPII. I find the scent is amazing so perhaps it is more intoxicating to some noses than others. Mine blooms like a dream, albeit in flushes, with the normal waiting period between buds. I have new canes appear every year on both my Sugar Moons, and they produce long stem roses for me. Simply spectacular.

2. Pope John Paul II is a great rose, but I did not get the healthiest bush from the nursery, and it looks small compared to my other whites. For some reason it is also less disease resistant than my Sugar Moon and Secret's Out, and the buds get misshapen (I think perhaps thrips are to blame?). The fragrance is nice on this one, but not as fragrant as Sugar Moon and Secret's Out according to my nose. I am tempted to purchase a replacement PJPII, because everyone loves this bush so much and there is no reason for it not to be thriving with the same conditions as my other bushes.

3. Secret's Out has a beautiful, intoxicating fragrance, and last's for days in a vase, which is the only reason why it's still in my garden. It has a tendency to appear pale yellow (especially near my other whites) especially before it opens fully. However, it looks beautiful in floral arrangements with my other pastels and smells like a dream so I love and enjoy it.

Hope this helps.

Zippitydoodaday,

Thanks for you timely report. I had three, tiny, own root Sugar Moons that I shovel pruned prematurely, a really dumb move. Since it would have taken these tiny liners at least 3-4 years to fill in their spots in the rose bed, I got impatient and replaced them with more mature roses. I intend to locate a larger Sugar Moon in the future and give this rose another go.

Of all the rose colors, I like white blooms the best. You artists out there will correct me, and rightly so, saying that white is not a color. It is the essence of color, just as black is also not a color, but the absence of color.

I still like white roses the best. It is the most noble, rich, elegant and refined color a rose can come in and acts as a relief and binding element in the rose bed. White roses show off the colors of their neighboring non-white roses to their greatest advantage. You can't have too many white roses in a mixed color bed.

Moses

I could have a bed of Sugar Moon, I love this rose so much. The fragrance IS intoxicating in all weather and temps here in SW Ohio.The flowers also last well on the bush and in the vase. My blooms were as big as my (admittedly small) hand last year on a grafted 1st year bush. I'll by more if I luck out this year at HD.