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jerome_gw

Devoniensis - Oh the agony, Oh the ecstasy

12 years ago

I found something in HelpMeFind that brought consolation: the shrub form of this takes about 8 years to take off, and then it goes into a different mode - stand back. I believe this. Having had it in the ground about 6 years now, our 3 shrubs have avoided being shovel-pruned each year by pumping out heartbreaking blooms at crucial times. And hey, it's my favorite rose. I ordered the climber as well, and that's putting out broomstick basal canes presently, has lots less mildew and looks like it's going to be a champ.

I like this rose so much, I'm going to order more, so we can transfer lots of mature ones to the new abbey whenever it gets built. It's a beautiful thing, and worth the time and patience. The fact that I would say this (I'm not a patient guy) is a miracle in itself. Go Devoniensis!

Comments (63)

  • 12 years ago

    Oh the envy!

    We're just a little to cold for a slow growing, heat loving Devoniensis.

    Cath

  • 12 years ago

    I love Devoniensis as a flower -- gorgeous whitish with nice tones and a heavy fragrance. But my two little pot ghetto plants looked very sad back in December with their bs.
    I am very glad to know that the shrub will repay the patience of the good gardener.

    Larry

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  • 12 years ago

    John, I love the guy -- but, you know how it goes ...

    Jeri

  • 12 years ago

    We grow both forms on 'Fortuniana' and free of rose mosaic. They are both vigorous and I've not noticed any particular slowness of the bush form. Perhaps the 'Fortuniana' allows it to bypass that lag time. Both forms are favorites of mine.

  • 12 years ago

    Malcolm, I suspect the Fort rootstock makes a huge difference. I've been told that "Francis Dubreuil" is a huge bush in CA, on Fort. It's a relative weakling, on its own roots, increasing my conviction that it is in reality the early HT, 'Barcelona.'

    Jeri

  • 12 years ago

    I only have a few teas and they are so small. What is the best way to train them if they are not identified as climbers?
    I know they don't want pruning but do they need staking in order to grow a supportive trunk that holds the flowers up in the air? I heard about leaning them into old trees in decline but I don't have anything like that. Mine are just in open ground and are small shrubs. Wish I had a wall or something for them to lean on or over. The picture of the beautiful freestanding tea gives me so much hope. We don't have anything like that around here everything is too new.

    It doesn't have to be mow and blow crews that cause the heartbreak. The Fullerton Arboretum behind the Univ. got new "direction". They chopped down to size the impressive main tree in the rainforest section and let all the tropicals and orchids under its canopy fry. Now its a no mans land of a few survivors and lots of dirt. There used to be a wonderful Heritage that was allowed to get very large on the picket fence in front of the victorian house. This old plant bloomed constantly but reached out into the walkway sometimes. Heritage isn't that thorny but the new guy had it shovel pruned. The same heavy hand whacks the old roses back to nothing every year. I tried to talk with them but they don't love the roses, only the new cycads they planted recently. The one rose who gets spared is the reve d or that covers up the gazebo.

  • 12 years ago

    Sounds like Fortuniana rootstock is the cure for the impatient, Jerome!

  • 12 years ago

    Oh! I know just what you mean. My Devoniensis is now approaching it's third summer and it is so frustrating.
    It came from Peter Beales. I don't know which rootstock it is on.
    It's biggest problem is powdery mildew. Last year it was so bad, a lot of the plant died back.
    It is putting out just one new basal shoot so far this year, which so far, is clean.
    Mine is climbing an apricot tree, which gives it a lot of shade. This could be why mine seems to be more yellow than the photos that I have seen of others.
    Daisy.

    {{gwi:230231}}

  • 12 years ago

    I had the bush form up north in a container and I truly regret not bringing it with me. It stayed small but that is desirable when it is in a pot. Maybe I can grow it again some day down here.

  • 12 years ago

    Kitty -- Very young Tea Roses are all twiggy growth. You could stake them up, but time and maturity will do the job, as they begin to produce mature canes.

    As for the blooms, they will be higher off the ground when there is mature growth. But if the blooms "nod," well, that's just what they do. It's their nature.

    Jeri

  • 12 years ago

    Rosefolly,

    Thanks for that information. I may just get the climbing version from Vintage. There are lots of feet of fencing that need to be covered, so I do have room for the climbing version.

    Jeri,
    Like you, I also liked the guy, he was very passionate and knowledgable about old garden roses . . . but I DO know how it goes!

    Daisy,
    That's a wonderful photo of Devoniensis. I grew my climbing version some time ago in the dappled sunlight of some oak trees. It got full sun until around noon then were in partial shade for the rest of the day. The blossoms on mine were similar in color to your photo. It is easy to see why this rose is also known as "the Magnolia Rose".

    John

  • 12 years ago

    ...I wonder where you'd get it on Fortuniana....hmmmm. Daisy - my climbing version doesn't mildew - the bush does though...and how! Beautiful photos by the way. My Devoniensis is so changeable that I've had pink, white, and yellow flowers all at once on a "candelabra" of bloom, depending on how far open each flower was. Favorite rose.

    Kittymoonbeam...what Jeri said about staking. Be patient (heh - I should talk!) they get bigger. I don't stake mine ever. Sad about that Heritage being cut down. I can't understand why people do stuff like that. O well.

  • 12 years ago

    We've never staked ours either, and the only reason I might do it is if it were in a place where dogs run back and forth, and trample it. (But we try not to plant roses in such locations.)

    And -- I don't know why people do such things, either. Stupidity?
    There was a MAGNIFICENT White Maman Cochet in San Juan Bautista -- the loveliest one I've ever seen, and quite old.
    {{gwi:230232}}

    About 5 years ago, some FOOL "pruned" it down to perhaps 2 ft.
    I was fairly certain it would die, but when I saw it last year, it was struggling to re-grow. Now, they'll probably PRUNE it again. :-(

    Jeri

  • 12 years ago

    I've read that on hmf too, about Devoniensis taking 8 years to really get going. Up here maybe it will take ten, but I think it's worth waiting for. It's the tea I love the best.

  • 12 years ago

    I have a climbing Devoniensis - in a sheltered nook on a south facing spot on my toolshed. The last 3 winters we have had temps below 0F for weeks - and behold! Not much frost damage! It has to be the most frost hardy tea? rose - I have experienced. Climbing Lady Hillingdon 20 feet away - froze to the ground last winter - the bush form of Lady Hillingdon is the most hardy Tea rose I know - in winters were many Austins die - Lady Hillingdon survives. For zone pushers (USDA zone 5-7 it might be worth trying CL. Devoniensis - my plant is not great - but I can grow it - since I like to try growing different roses and different classes of roses - even this rose I am told that we can not grow here ... I just don't expect it to grow to sizes it can become in warmer climates - but I do understand Jerome and others like this rose:

    {{gwi:230233}}

    {{gwi:230234}}

  • 12 years ago

    Cupshaped Rose, are you sure that it's 'Devoniensis' in the picture above? It looks more like 'Ash Wednesday' ('Aschermittwoch')

    I had to wait just 6 years to see a good bloom on my 'Devoniensis'. Not a very vigorous grower, and not a very prolofic bloomer. Sometimes blooms are still scorched by the sun (less and less, I have to admit) ... but when they are good... they're very, very good!

    {{gwi:230235}}

  • 12 years ago

    Maurizio....what a great picture! Cupshaped...the flowers on yours look different from mine - either climate, or I have a different variety from you. Mine never get that dusky shade.

    Thanks for all the great followups.

  • 12 years ago

    Lets see---I'm now 82---If this gorgeous rose takes 8 years to mature (if I'm lucky I will be 90) LOL guess I'll just enjoy everyone else's lovely rose
    Jerome I hope to be here checking on the growth of your rose.
    --Please keep us posted--
    Florence

  • 12 years ago

    Luanne has a climbing 'Devoniensis' that is her pride and my envy.
    She bought it on rootstock just before a nursery folded that budded Tea on rootstock. I watched it grow by leaps and bounds whilst my Tea rosebushes bought band sized were growing only a foot to 2', each year in height after being put in the ground.
    sigh.
    I wish I could buy Tea roses on rootstock, it gives them such a jump-start.
    Sigh... again.
    Lux.

    P.S.
    Jeri, is the more disease resistant form of 'Devoniensis' -sold from vintagegardens.com ?
    - is it the climbing form or the bush form?
    thank you in advance.

    lux

  • 12 years ago

    Vintage's version, which came from the Santa Rosa Cemetery, is evidently the bush form -- I've not actually seen it tho. I do know that they donated plants back to the cemetery, but I've not seen those as yet, either.

    Jeri

  • 12 years ago

    Vintage has both the bush form and the climber. The climber is the one I bought and after reading this thread I won't expect much for several years.

    I do not know the provenance of either. I've become lazy and rely on the website while that information is in the printed catalog.

    Rosefolly

  • 12 years ago

    we do not grow many teas here in the UK unless under glass or in very sheltered gardens - although more and more are becoming available. The general horticultural orthodoxy is always that they will take at least 6 years to reach a shapely maturity...and will make big shrubs. Many gardeners really cannot be bothered to wait that long. Mad, really, since this could surely be said of most flowering shrubs, many taking much much longer (exochorda, daphnes) and getting considerably larger. Even the speediest rose surely needs a good 3-4 years to get going - although I am sure that statement is going to be contested with my new little Darlows E.

  • 12 years ago

    You bring up a good point, campanula - I have learned a lot more patience through gardening, and what used to seem a long time, doesn't anymore.

  • 12 years ago

    Many of the English-bred Tea Roses do just fine over here - just look for the ones without French names :) Great favourites - and hugely vigorous - like 'Lady Hillingdon', 'Mrs BR Cant', 'Mrs Herbert Stevens' - not to mention 'Devoniensis'. It is only common sense to feed them well and to position them away from late Spring frosts and those drying, killing winds. Don't let modern writers deter you from trying them (and many others) - the Victorians and Edwardians used them extensively and loved them! My passion is to mix them with Moss Roses . . .

    My 'Darlow's Enigma' is 12 years old now ( a present from a forum member) - you are in for a treat!

    Best wishes
    Jon

  • 12 years ago

    Four or five years ago, I asked Pat Henry to recommend a rose for a large container that I planned to place in a prominent location in my front garden. I was surprised when she urged me to try the bush form of 'Devoniensis'. I took her advice (somewhat reluctantly) and am VERY glad I did. Makes a stunning container plant!

    Rosefolly -- The Vintage catalog identifies the provenance of their plants simply as follows: 'Devoniensis' -- [Robinson, found]; 'Devoniensis, Climbing' -- [Lowery, found].

    Cupshaped Roses -- So glad you are posting regularly here again. Your comments & photos, here as well as at HMF, are always appreciated. It was from you that I first leaned of 'Reverend H. d'Ombrain' and began an unrelenting quest to acquire it. Thanks to you, EuroDesert and Vintage, two plants of that small Bourbon now grow in my garden!

  • 12 years ago

    morrisnoor - I looked at the pictures on HMF - and I agree! - the rose I grow (bought as Cl. Devoniensis) look much more like Ash Wednesday to me too! Most likely I have gotten a mislabeled rose - and did not even know it - since no one else around here grow this rose, and would know. That also explains why it survived the winters here ... Thanks for pointing this out.

    jaxondel: You have gotten 'Reverend H. d'Ombrain' - wow! you have an extremely rare rose there. I hope you will like when it matures over the next 3-5 years. 15 years ago - I estimated there was less than 40-50 of this rose left in Europe/world. But I really love this little rose - classified as a bourbon - but reminds me more of the damask perpetual Duchesse De Rohan - I have grown both to compare them over the years. I am happy to hear that it made it to USA - the first specimens I got came from cuttings I took from the Royal Garden nearby - I later got some from the Garden/Nursery from german relatives of the royal family in Germany to see if it was the same rose - and it was. No other nurseries in Europe that had it listed - had it for sale. I grafted 10 plants every year and sent budwood to Holland - who sent it to Cliff, Vintage and probably Ashdown? Sadly - it turned out that the plants of 'Souvenir de Alphonse Lavallee' yet again had been mixed up with old stock of Erinnerung an Brod - so Cliff got those too ... I sometimes think that rose is cursed! This year I will make sure to graft more plants myself and I can only hope that the nurseries that get it -will get rid of the old stock - but like we have just seen from the above example with Cl. devoniensis - we risk getting mislabeled roses - and unless we know the rose - up close and personal - we might not even know we grow a mislabeled rose.

  • 12 years ago

    . . . proving it happens to the best of us :) Hi, Niels!

    Best wishes
    Jon

  • 12 years ago

    Cupshaped Roses -- It was Cliff who finally succeeded in importing 'Rev H d'Ombrain', and they were Cliff's rooted cuttings of the rose that were transferrred to, and sold (quickly) by, Vintage. It remains in Vintage's collection where it's currently available as a "custom-root".

    Also transferred to Vintage was Cliff's imported 'Souvenir de Alphonse Lavallee'. Previously listed by Vintage as SdAL was a rose imported by them from Beales in the UK. Apparently, that rose was later determined to be 'Empereur du Maroc', and SdAL disappeared from Vintage's listings until the acquisition of Cliff's import. Now we learn from you that the EuroDesert import is yet ANOTHER in a virtual parade of impostors that have arrived here masquerading as SdAL! You may be right about a curse . . .

    One can sometimes understand the confusion surrounding certain old garden roses; unfortunately, the mix-ups extend also to very modern varieties. About a decade ago, I saw the HT 'Enghien' in the gardens at Castle Coloma near Brussels and began lobbying for its import here. A year ago, a plant bearing an 'Enghien' label was, at last, shipped to me. I've no idea what the identity of the rose is, but 'Enghien' it definitely is not. The Dutch exporter agreed that the plant was mislabeled, but apparently offered no further information to the importer who, in turn, supplied it to me. Your words about the risks involved in purchasing roses are all too true -- and, no doubt, always will be.

  • 12 years ago

    Rosefolly -- The Vintage catalog identifies the provenance of their plants simply as follows: 'Devoniensis' -- [Robinson, found]; 'Devoniensis, Climbing' -- [Lowery, found].

    *** However, we know from Gregg, AND from the Santa Rosa "Rose Brigade" that the bush form came from the Old Santa Rosa Cemetery. That mother plant was subsequently killed by imprudent pruning.

    It remains to be seen whether the young plants donated back to the cemetery by Vintage will ever grow very well, because the environment of that cemetery today is quite shaded -- which was not the case in the 19th-Century.

    Jeri

  • 12 years ago

    Has anyone tried Hortico's clone of 'Souvenir de Alphonse Lavalee' ?

  • 12 years ago

    Harborrose, It's not likely that anyone has tried Hortico's "clone" of SdAL since that nursery is listing it as a rose that's making its "debut" in their 2012 catalog.

    I forswore dealings with Hortico years ago, but am very interested any furute reports regarding Hortico's selection of this elusive rose.

  • 12 years ago

    Oh, you're right, Jax, I didn't remember the *new* in their rose listing. I ordered it awhile ago. Hey, maybe I'll get lucky.

  • 12 years ago

    Harborrose, I so hope that luck is on your side. Please report back to us after you've had an opportunity to assess your new rose, okay?

  • 12 years ago

    My Devoniensis is at least 4 years old and is growing backwards. Maybe it'll take off in the next few years? We didn't even gave a winter this year but I lost over 3/4ths of it. Maybe the record heat plus drought last summer did it.

  • 12 years ago

    Shoot, I didn't have to wait for mine to grow--the thing acts like it's on steroids! My only problem is that the Mid-Atlantic BS monster has found it, and as teas go it's not particularly well-foliated in my spot. At times I've even accused it (under my breath--I don't want to give it a complex) of being a closet early hybrid tea. The flowers, however, are absolutely to die for, and have a delicious fragrance. If you're sensing any real disappointment from me, it's only because in its first season it was so healthy; I just hope that as it matures, it grows stonger against the forces of blackspot. If not, I'm going to need more gardenias to hide its legs!

    Stefan

  • 12 years ago

    Stefan, do you have the bush or the climber? Grafted or own root?

  • 12 years ago

    Jerome, mine is the bush version--own root, from Vintage. Sorry for the sluggish response!

  • 12 years ago

    I had the climbing version of this rose. Own root. It did nothing for one year, the second year it grew but barely. The third year it grew so much that by the forth year I had to actually take it out because it was going to take over that entire portion of the yard. Now that I am redoing my back yard and have more room and a wall that needs coverage I cannot wait to get this rose again! I am going to mix it either with a climbing blue girl or angel face. The scents and colors should really be worth it hopefully!

  • 12 years ago

    Mine is from Roses Unlimited. Last year it put out what I called the most breathtakingly beautiful rose bloom I've ever seen:

    {{gwi:230236}}

    Mine is fairly puny too. It's in its 3rd year and I'm hoping it puts on some size. Since I've heard here it takes awhile, I'll be patient.

  • 12 years ago

    I think also that it would grow more quickly with better feeding and soil. I bet disbudding would help too...but I have no intention of doing that.

  • 12 years ago

    Jerome, mine took years to give me a decent bloom, but even one bloom per year for the first few years was a treasure. Now, it is my pride and joy.

    Love the way the blooms are different colors depending on the mood of the weather.

    it's a true beauty

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Eight years! Ain't nobody got time for that! I'm not sure I will be alive in eight years.

    Well, that explains a lot.

    Mine had an exquisitely perfumed, huge bloom when I got it. But it hasn't done anything (well, unless you count negative growth) since I put it in the ground about six weeks ago except to truly resent all the heavy rain and lack of sunlight since then. Madame Lombard, Madame Rebe, and Blush Noisette are within 3 m of her and they are all happy as clams.

    I would not have gotten it had I known.

    I foolishly believed that any tea would be bulletproof here in NC Florida. Live and learn.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I suspect that Dr. Manners grafts his Devoniensis and gets better vigor and health. Mine is hanging on to life by a thread. I hope it survives. It didn't do well in member ratings at HMF.

    What's strange is that my Maitland White, which might be an early hybrid tea rather than a tea, is doing so much better. Maybe I should focus on the Bermuda Mystery Roses. All of the ones I've gotten are doing fantastic. It seems to me that Bermuda Mystery Roses are safer bets for Florida than anything with the "Earthkind" designation. Sorry for veering off topic.


  • 5 years ago

    Mine is own root here and seems very healthy. I think some baby Teas can really look pathetic as babies, and given time they really pull themselves together. How it looks now is nothing like what it will become hopefully.

  • 5 years ago

    Shiela is right about Dr Manners. He dies recommend and he has that rose too. It is so beautiful. Just give it time and chin up. I think he has but I am not 100 per cent certain it is mostly on Fortuniana rootstock . He might also have own roots but I has so many roses that I won't able to remember which one's.

    Give it time and it will grow. I also have tons of rain over a month. Cloudy skies mostly. I understand how you feel. My roses look so starve and malnutrition. They look so fragile .

    Jin

  • 5 years ago

    Jin, yes, some of them are saying, "help me, help me, help me" and I don't know what to do. I can't control the weather. At least it did not rain today. Some of the ones in the ground are giving me flowers but they are little, shriveled deformed things. So sad!

  • 5 years ago

    I'll hope for sun for you and Devoniensis, cedemas.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    It rain here all night. I don't think I have water my roses for over a month. Yes, all my roses are also asking for help. I puti ironite and Rose tone. So far most of them responded except for 2 or 3. And I am clueless but hopeful. I am giving couple of days before I start another thread for help.

    Jin

  • 5 years ago

    It has been six years now since my own-root Cl Devnoiensis from Vintage went into the ground on the back fence. It is now huge and gorgeous. It does get a touch of PM now and then, but then all my Teas did this year. Not sure why. It was no worse than the others, and better than some.

    It did take several years to take off, as several suggested and I expected.


    Rosefolly

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