Anne, the answer to your question is, "it depends". The type of tree, its age/how established it is, soil type and other factors affect how successfully this can be done. ANY tree is opportunistic. Wherever there is increased water, more nutrient rich soil and added fertilizer, tree roots will proliferate. Some trees are worse than others. Maples, Birches, Ficus and others with dense, massive root masses, are very problematic trying to grow anything near. My experience is Mimosa roots are extensive, but not the dense mat, like carpet backing, as some others. Using a strong growing rose like Ballerina should help your chances.

Trying to grow roses around liquidambers is a royal pain in the posterior. Those roots come right to the surface, no matter what type of soil you garden in. Generally, deep soil with good drainage and deep watering will encourage roots of most types to grow deep into the soil. Engineered soils with marginal to no drainage cause all roots to come to the surface for oxygen. In those cases, forget it. Some trees, such as olive, liquid amber, peppers, birches, etc., are surface growers no matter what you do. Personally, I wouldn't plant any rose anywhere near liquidamber roots if at all possible. Eventually, you're going to be nursing the roses with extra food and water just to get them to limp along while the blamed trees flourish.

One thing you can do to get an idea of what you're in for is to dig the appropriate holes where you want them. If your trees are well established, you should see the kind of root problems you may experience. They CAN work for a while, and may work for a very long time where the soil, climate, rainfall, drainage, tree and rose types are compatible, but very often, it's not a great combination. Good luck. Kim

Fudge. I am not surprised by your answer, Kim. In fact, that is pretty much what I expected especially concerning the liquidambar whose surface roots are so huge. I do not want to water and feed the beast that is for sure. I will have to measure some more and think about it. I like the liquidambar but I keep thinking that w/out it I could plant a half dozen more roses. Grumpy face.

Thank you for the input, Kim.

Anne

I'm sorry I couldn't just say, "great, go for it!" Anne. I have friends who live in a newer home with engineered soil and MANY liquidambers the builder planted. Those bloody roots run under the sod and literally across their lot from side to side. You can trace them under the sod. They have wanted some colorful things planted in their planting beds, but those roots prevent a shovel from being put into the soil. I'm cringing at a mcmansion recently built down hill from here. Also engineered soil, shallow but long front yard, most of which is covered with pavers, with six olives and as many liquidambers planted along the facade. It's pretty, but a genuine nightmare gestating for someone in the very near future. What WERE those people thinking!? Kim

Yes, don't we all want to hear "Great! Go for it!" Alas, in the long run much better to think long term and get an honest answer. What were the McMansion people thinking? That I can answer-- they weren't thinking. I do it all the time :-)

The good news is that I do not have engineered soil (good for gardening--maybe not for earthquake safety). My house was built in 1946. The neighbor next to me still has a little persimmon orchard. Also, I managed to get the city to okay the removal of a Siberian elm in our backyard that was shading a lot of the yard in which I want to grow roses, of course, and vegetables. I do like trees very much. However, we have three redwoods, the mimosa, another Siberian elm, a small Cyprus, a very old apricot tree and the liquidambar. And, while our lot is huge by Mountain View, Ca standards, it is not nearly big enough for a bunch of trees and anything else.
Well, back to the old drawing board. Thanks again, Kim.

Anne

The distance from the mimosa is fine, as long as they get enough sun.

Everyone is right about the sweetgum, don't plant near it.

The city in which I work had whole neighborhoods with liquidambars planted on the strip between the sidewalk and the street. That meant they also had whole neighborhoods where the sidewalks severely buckled and heaved from the pressure of those surface roots. They finally had to take out all those trees (which had such beautiful fall colors) and planted something a little more manageable. If you have tons of acreage by all means plant a few for fall color, but only in an area where you don't want to pave or grow anything else.

Ingrid

I can tell you from experience that Maples don't work! Their roots are horrible and invade anywhere and everywhere there's any hint of water! I've actually found that if I water with the sprinkler so that the tree gets hit with it too my roses do much better. When I just watered the beds with the soakers the roots from the tree sought out all the water and resistance was futile!

Oh, and stay far FAR away from black walnut trees. Their roots are actually toxic and will kill any surrounding plants to keep everything for themselves!

Egads! Thank goodness I don't have a maple or black walnut to contend with! I bought five bands of Snowbelt. Maybe I will use one as a sacrificial lamb and see how close I can plant it to the liquedambar.

Does anyone have roses near trees that do well?

Anne

I have a Lady Banks that is growing up into a mature mulberry tree. That is the only one.

Rosefolly

That's a perfect example of the "it depends". Mulberry roots aren't usually dense mats of carpet backing like birches, nor are they as terrible as liquid ambers and maples. Add that Banksiae is both the immovable object as well as the irresistible force and you have the perfect combination for success. That "Lady" will not be denied! Kim

Anne, I think if your rose is budded on Fortuniana, it will give those trees a run for their money. I made the dumb newbie mistake of planting a budded Mrs B R Cant between two huge oaks - like in the 5-foot space between the oaks. There was almost no tree canopy then because this was all woods until recently, so I thought "no problem". The feeder roots of the trees are just matted everywhere in that bed, but Mrs B R is surviving well enough after seven years. Francois Juranville (own-root) is growing like a weed within a few feet of other oak trees. Also, Louis Philippe does fine even with the oak suckers coming up under him. Etoile de Mai is planted at the foot of an oak tree, and Bow Bells is very nearby. Sometimes not knowing that something won't work is a blessing.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Odd that this question should arise at this particular time: Descanso Gardens International Rosarium had as one of its goals in the great replanting of the 1990s to show that roses and trees were compatible. Well, here we are in the second decade of the 21st century and they have decided to jettison that approach. Certainly the variables cited by Kim play a part; the Canadian roses look terrible limited as they are by the trees surrounding them. Other gardens seem to be flourishing. My own experience is that I can plant what I want near citrus; in fact I have Baby Faurax, Sweet Pea, Marie Daly, and a sport of Altissimo planted near the orange tree and Wild Blue Yonder, Night, Sheila's perfume and Papa Meilland planted by the lime tree. The persimmon tree had both Cl Columbia and minis planted around it and Baronne Prevost and Shi-An by the lemon tree. I did remove a pepper tree and winterberry because of crowding. Descanso also intended to highlight winning companion rose plantings, but so far the only one that comes to mind is verbena bonariensis and the Portlands....

Jim--do you have any photos? Your plantings sound lovely.
Sherry--"sometimes not knowing that something won't work is a blessing"--I agree. Ignorance is bliss and miracles happen everyday. I guess it's good to know the odds and take a calculated gamble sometimes. (Or, be like me, and plow ahead--those make for good "learning experiences")
Kim, thanks for keeping it real. Your wisdom and experience is a constant guide.
As for me, I have a 70 year old crab apple. I'm thinking of putting MAC there to grow into the tree and climb a fence there. The tree is pretty much a skeleton. Not too much foliage and it no longer bears fruit. About 20 ft west of the apple trunk are three young Korean cherries planted 8 ft apart to make a high privacy hedge. Behind all of these trees is an 8ft fence. This is at the rear of my gardening space with Southwest exposure and all day sun. I want to create a "secret garden" vibe back there with a water feature and a comfy seat.
Any opinions?
Seems not many fortuniana nurseries bud many of the old roses. I had ordered two Lamarque and 2 Reve D'Or only to find them "unavailable".
Drats.
I went with Sombreuil, Baronne Henriette de Snoy, Felicia and Francis Dubreuil for OGRs. 2 Parade, 3 Blueberry Hill, 2 Lemon Spice and 2 Hot Cocoa are the moderns coming 2 gallon potted on fortuniana.
Susan

I have to take this opportunity to ask my fellow gardeners to watch where they plant trees on their property. So many of us like to push the boundaries by planting very near, if not on, the property line.

I have bought my last garden home and now have to deal with the fact that the row of black walnuts I thought were on my property actually have their trunks on the neighbor's land. I cannot cut them down as I had planned. Now I have toxic roots criss-crossing my whole garden area. Of couse I should have insisted on a land survey before plunking my money down, but this is a small town in the country and they just do not do that here. When I had it done, the only possiblity in this area was the a city engineer, and he wasn't sure his company could spare the time for a homeowner. Too bad there is not a next time for me to benefit from what I learned from this mistake!

Is it really honorable to "borrow" you neighbor's land to grow half your tree roots and branches in your neighbor's yard?

I have been guilty of this in the past-- not with trees, but with suckering roses planted just inside my boundary. My neighbor never complained, but I did leave her with a pruning problem.

We all want to squeeze as many plants as possible into our gardens, but can our love of gardening end up making us morally guilty of tresspassing, even if the laws do not?!

Just had to vent.

Erin

Iowa--check out your property laws. Here one has the right to trim/remove any vegetation encroaching on one's land. How did you discover the mistake? Was their property surveyed? It's likely you are within your rights to excavate those roots and remove any overhang.
Honor and morality are immaterial in this situation. Research your rights under the law.
Susan

Another two cents' worth about tree roots. Some trees are just plain terrible no matter what: I plan on killing every elm that's anywhere near the garden (Ulmus minor: other species may not be so horrible) as they have shallow wide-ranging extremely invasive roots along with every other vice you can imagine. But in some cases it may depend on how the tree was grown. I would imagine that a tree that just grew on its own (wasn't planted), that was never watered, and that lives in an area with regular periods of drought, would be more likely to root deeply rather than at the surface and be less likely to compete with roses planted nearby. Our 'Treasure Trove' was planted within three feet of the base of a mature black locust and has always grown like a marvel; and we garden comfortably around our persimmon.

Here's some pics of my first flower bed and as you can see they are planted with oat trees.I'm gonna post a few one at a time, the last two is where I took out some of the grafted established roses and put in ownroot. they would probley get bigger if they were in full morning sun, which my new bed will have, but this is all I could do with at the time.

another

another

another showing blooms

here's another with blooms

and this is different with bands and newly planted roses that have to mature.

I have been mulling this forum over for a couple days now because I too have visions of planting a rose or two near a tree that is greedy in nature. We call it a gum here in the South -- not sure if it is the same as liquidambar. I wondered at the possibility of success if one were to sink a large plastic pot the size that a pretty big tree from the nursery comes in and plant the rose in there, assuming of course that you can hack through the tree roots. Or what about creating a raised bed beneath the tree, lining the bottom with a barrier? Any thoughts? Finally, Kim mentioned Lady Banks growing up a mulberry tree, what about other ramblers, say Vielchenblau? If a rambler was a possibility for success near a gum, would you want to plant a younger band there or wait for it to become more established?

Well that must be all I have on the computer, I do miss some of my roses that I took out to put the ownroot in , especially my two tree roses, but I needed something that wouldn't need so much upkeep in the near future with having some health problems getting worse. I gave my mother all the grafted ones I took out, besides a couple that died at the graft even with protection because we got snow that year- two years or so ago I believe, and we don't usually get snow. I think I may have seen it three times in my 30 years, maybe a couple more that I can't recall, lol

...possibility of success if one were to sink a large plastic pot the size that a pretty big tree from the nursery comes in and plant the rose in there, assuming of course that you can hack through the tree roots...

That should work for a while, until the tree roots grow back and into the pot, which some of them do, but probably not for a few years. The tough part would be hacking through the tree roots and hoping it doesn't damage the tree. Of course the tree might get damaged and would have to be removed, leaving a large sunny spot in which one would be forced to plant roses...

I hack tree roots all the time and they haven't killed over yet...but I still hope lol. without dh's permission of course I have to sneak it in.lol

No matter how large a planting area I've had, there has ALWAYS been a pot ghetto. This goes back to about 1982. It hasn't mattered whether the trees were the original, NASTY paper mulberries, ashes, pines, oaks, walnuts, birches or whatever, tree roots always find the drain holes if the pots touch the soil. Tree roots always infiltrate the pots and strangle the potted plants. If you can prevent soil to pot contact, including the contact created by the eroding soil from the pot creating a path for the roots to follow the water, you can prevent invasion. If there is ANY way for them to enter the pot, there are going to, period.

All roots follow water. Pots get watered probably more frequently than beds. If there is soil to soil contact, tree roots (and many other types, such as the awful creeping fig on the front street wall here) find that water path and do what Nature designed them to do, make use of it.

As for rose types which may succeed, I'd go with the most rampant, vigorous, "in your face" growers as they'd be the most likely to succeed in a battle with tree roots. Strongly climbing species should succeed well because in Nature, they grow along the edges of woodlands, throwing themselves into trees so their blooms escape into the sunlight where pollinators do their thing to perpetuate the species. The more vigorous, demanding, a climber, the greater its chances of success. In this climate, Banksiaes can push yards of growth each year, so I'd expect them to be successful in most tree battles. Veilchenblau should work as it is a fairly strong growing multiflora type, such as Dorothy Perkins. Dorothy seems to have won that battle everywhere I've ever seen her anywhere near trees. Giganteas, musks and Sinowilsonii have been very successful against trees here.

Personally, I would always start with as large, as mature a rose as possible when staging a rose-tree battle. In most cases, the tree is likely to be well established, with a great deal of momentum. Setting a small, immature rose plant into that mass of competing roots seems rather unfair, and possibly unwise. Sending out a vigorously growing rose, with its own growth momentum well under way, should give it a much greater chance of success as well as provide you with the results you're after, significantly faster. Kim

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond in such detail to my posting, Kim. Your many years of experience will save me a bit of heartbreak. During the bleak winter months, I had imagined climbing a Vielchenblau up the gum tree in my sunny backyard along with a Dainty Bess and various other flowers. I knew the tree roots would be problematic and had been wondering how I could contrive it (sunk pot, raised beds, etc.). Maybe the Dainty Bess and the flowers won't work unless I can come up with some contraption to keep the soils separate as you explain but with some diligence it is good to know that Vielchenblau may indeed be a success and it would be lovely enough on its own.

Thank you also for naming some other strong ramblers. I am beginning to think about venturing further out onto our property and ramblers seemed like a good beginning.

Hoovb and Alana, I would hesitate before hacking at the roots of a tree I admired even just the teeniest bit but I do not admire the gum tree and if only hacking away at the roots would do away with it. They are impossible :) And yes, its place would indeed be perfect for a lovely tangle of new old roses.

We have one black walnut on the edge of our woods. I'd better keep an eye on it.

You're welcome, Sidos-House. My friends with the too many liquidambers in their engineered planters, frequently want "color" added to the ground cover under them. I wish it was possible. The builder planted ornamental strawberry which is languishing due to the inability of the soil to absorb and maintain water. Myoporum from the association areas has self seeded and is dealing with the conditions, even the tree roots, but that's the only thing (other than weeds) to find it possible to take hold and engage successfully in that battle. Adding soil to the surface so there is something to plant in only results in those bloody roots coming up further and the finer feeder roots proliferating across the surface. It works for a few months, but then anything planted in the surface soil begins growing backwards until it succumbs to the root strangulation and competition. Isn't gardening anywhere near trees "fun"?

The only tree I've found it pleasurable gardening anywhere near has been koelreuteria. Sunset Western Garden Book was right about this one having, "deep, but not invasive roots. A good tree to garden under." That's been my experience with it. Crepe myrtle standards are OK, but no cigar. Kim

Sidos-House,
The common name for Liquidambar is sweet gum. There are other trees called gums in the south, though. Sweet gum is a good sized tree with leaves that look like maple leaves, bristly balls for fruits (uncomfortable to walk on) and it generally colors brilliantly in the fall. If this sounds like your tree, you probably have a sweet gum, the botanical name of which is Liquidambar.

I'm originally from Alabama and liquid amber is what we called Sweet Gum growing up. Those horrid seed balls were Sweet Gum Balls. Beautiful, but nasty trees. Kim

Anyone remember the funny story about Ramona Quimby, in an old Beverly Cleary children's book, who made a crown out of the sweet gums balls so she could be a princess? Guess what happened to her hair!??

No, but I do remember the hullabaloo back in the early 1960s about the southern kid at a large Boy Scout camp who traded a native kid from Alaska "porcupine eggs" for antique scrimshaw. My dad was a life-long Boy Scout leader and found that one "interesting". Kim

Every new post I read makes me dislike my liquedambar even more. I love the idea of a rambler scrambling up the tree but my front yard is too small for that and the tree is right near the street. Well, I'll have to work on my DH who wants to keep the offender, the thwarter of roses and ceanothus and other lovely shrubs.

Thank you for all the input. Interesting about the Descano failed experiment. That says a lot, huh?

Anne

LOL, Kim. Did you have to give the scrimshaw back??

This post was edited by harborrose on Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 12:03

No ma'am! At that age, "I" would have NEVER even thought of such a thing! We had sweet gums and I hated them even then because I liked digging holes, which the roots prevented, and I hated stepping on the prickly balls, which it seemed to shed thirteen months a year. Kim

Well I am undeterred by a long battle with trees since several acres of poplar wood (poplar - the tree which the term 'sucker' was invented for), awaits the chainsaw and brushcutters. Thankfully, most of my existing roses are of the tough, semi-wild types - gnarly ramblers and vigorous climbers and a slew of creeping ground devouring ones. Blessed with fabulous deep, peaty AND sandy soil. The roses will be mainly marginal, grown as hedges but I am rather looking forward to this next stage of my gardening life as it is so completely different to anything that has gone before.

Ah, yes, Poplars! Aspens, Poplars and Cottonwoods...your neighbor has one half a mile away, you spit on the ground and within a week, you have a FOREST of them! I hibernate when the cottonwoods "cotton". I'm chuckling remembering when friends and I were in a KMart "Garden Center" in the middle of no where in Utah, back in the early 80s while on vacation, observing their table full of one gallon, "Quacking Aspens"! LOL! Kim

This post was edited by roseseek on Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 14:27

I keep wondering whether landscape cloth laid over tree roots (with a rose bed om top) would act as an adequate barrier, in other words, a sandwich of tree roots, barrier, then rose bed. I know that landscape cloth is supposed to be used over the soil and under the mulch to act as a weed barrier. Would the tree roots be able to penetrate the barrier or not? Is it worth the experiment?

Cath

My experience is, anything air and water permeable, tree roots can penetrate. Anything which is not air and water permeable laid over tree roots could suffocate them and potentially damage the tree. Not to mention that the rose roots would hit that barrier and potentially cause other issues with the roses. Sure, it's worth experimenting with to answer the questions for yourself, but I am not inclined to spend that energy and those resources as I fight tree roots in many gardens and nothing has prevented their rapid infiltration in any of them in the decade-plus I've cared for them. Kim

DH ok'd the removal of liquidambar after I told him about the responses I recd on here. Also, it is obvious that the roots are lifting up and cracking our walkway. Offending tree will be used as mulch for lovely shrubs including Comtesse du Cayla, Snowbelt, Renae, coffeeberry for birds and ceanothus for me and birds.

Thank you GWers!!!

Anne

Congratulations, Anne, you lucky thing :)

Thank you, Melissa. That is definitely my tree. What a pretty word -- liquidambar -- and what a mess those prickly balls are.

Harbor Rose, how I LOVED Ramona Quimby. Jeezus, Beezus! Thanks for reminding me of that prickly crown!!

Kim, thanks again for your input. I've always been a solitary gardener and am just now finding out how helpful different perspectives can be.

Lastly, I throw this out there... for what's it worth... just in case... someone is interested. In Garden Open Today by Beverly Nichols there is a section about his copper beech and how he wants to plant rhododendrons beneath it. He digs a trench all the way around it (six feet out) and lines it with concrete blocks. Then he replenishes the "outer" soil with peat and plants the shrubs. Yes, he acknowledges, the roots will creep underneath eventually but that is easily solved: cut them off. He finishes by inviting the reader to come out and see for himself how both the copper beech and the rhododendrons are flourishing.

I am not familiar with the varying details of root systems of different trees. Maybe there is something about the copper beech that makes this workable for it but not for all trees. (He does later say he helped other people use this practice in other gardens on other trees.) But it might be something to consider. It doesn't seem too awful of a chore to take a sharp shovel around the outside of the constructed barrier and sever the young roots a couple times a season. That may be a hopelessly naive statement. And Beverly Nichols was, I think, known to exaggerate.

Like I said, for what it's worth, for those who don't want to take no for an answer :)

This post was edited by Sidos-House on Mon, Feb 11, 13 at 11:23

Perhaps the growth rate in a shorter summer climate, combined with the depth of his soil helped make Mr. Nichols' root cutting more successful? It's definitely not something I would be in a rush to attempt here! Our trees fall over with great enthusiasm after every heavy rain, once the accompanying high winds arrive! And not just the eucalyptus; oaks, ashs, even the ubiquitous peppers flop over like drunken sailors in our winds after just a few inches of rain. Except for in very select spots, Ma Nature has a real issue with tall trees here in Southern California. Kim