And I thought Americans had a grandiose sense of entitlement!

HMF is non-profit and does not advertise. It has no source of revenue. People have been maintaining it out of their dedication to the rose community. If you don't want to pay for others' work, go do the research yourself.

I guess I do not understand. I just looked up the lineage of a rose, and I saw it without being asked to pay. For all I know though, I donated back when they asked. Seems silly not to donate for as much as I use the site.

I'm not sure I've ever used that feature on HMF. If I have it has been ages ago. However any service they offer is well worth paying for. There's nothing else like it out there and they are a tremendous resource. I can't imagine complaining about it.

Kate

The problem that I see here is a clear example of having a clear philosophy. As far as info. sharing sites go, much like this one, you either adopt one of two formats: either you achieve monetary support through donations or you seek out advertisement revenue from companies that would benifit from exposure on that sight. Companies that advertise on sites like this one know that exposing us users of sites like this one equalls big $$$ when we go out and try the next best thing in fungus/insect control.

The problem with HMF is that it trys to play to both of these concepts. HMF either needs to solicit advertisers and continue to be an open source of shared information for all (let's face the truth, without those pictures of the roses we do research on, contributed by members like myself, half of the lure for the site would be missing) OR it needs to limit access (much like rose societies) to benefactors and their guests alone. If they chose the later they stand to be limited in the richness that comes from having the widest audience possible. If they do the first, then we all have to tollerate more pop-ups and floating ads. I'd prefer the ads any day over limiting the sharing power seen in such sites as Wikipedia or the such.

For those who believe that HMF is a pure non-for-profit organization, look a little closer and you may be surprised.

"Next paying feature will be looking at all but one photos with gratuity for the photos contributors. Here are the real earning possibilities and unavoidable intentions."

As catsrose said, talk about a sense of entitlement. Geez. Pierre, you make it sound like this is just the first phase of some nefarious plan to make a fortune from HMF, and nothing could be further from the truth; they just need to pay the bills. We've had all of these features for free for years now, and HMF now requires attention 7 days a week for hours each day, and surely the people who do all this work deserve some tiny bit of compensation for the effort???! Only one feature has been made "premium member only" and most of the avid users of the site don't need that info, so for many, its not an issue. However, that doesn't mean that all users shouldn't contribute a couple bucks towards preserving one of the most valuable and frequently used services on the Web. All they are asking is for enough financial support to pay the costs of providing you an outstanding service.

Lets face it, if people don't donate to services like this, they have to resort to selling advertising space to sponsor companies and I know which of these two scenarios I find far more distasteful.

Paul Barden

As I said in the other thread about this, I have no problem making a donation to HMF. I use it all the time, and add photos frequently. That website is such a wealth of knowledge and info, and it must take a lot of time and effort to keep it going. I have a coworker who has his own local weather station website, which doesn't really require a lot of maintenance, but it costs him a fair amount annually to keep his domain name and pay for the web-hosting server. A website like HMF with its wide ranging search engine obviously must take a lot of maintenance and updating. It's well worth it to me.

Can't see anyone not being willing to shell out a few bucks for HMF. I use that sight almost daily,and have my garden journal there and have contributed pictures and never paid a cent. I think i'll donate as soon as I'm done writing this.

Mark

I love HMF and use it all the time and I understand that running a site like this involves some expense. My concern is that if they continue limiting free access much of the appeal of the site will disappear. Its value is the sheer number of contributors, so every time I go there I feel I really get a true picture (literally and metaphorically) of a rose. What if only a few people agree to a paid subscription? Won't they then have to raise prices or close off more features? And wasn't the site designed to be a free resource?
I personally am never bothered by ads on this very forum. I know they are not exactly very pleasant but tolerable, and like on this site, they can be designed not to flash at you from every corner of the screen all the time.
Just my 2cents worth.
Masha

Masha,
Unfortunately, advertising on GW has NOT always been that benign. In fact, even now there are some ads that pop up over top of the page content to interrupt the user experience, which I consider unacceptably aggressive. Its one of the big reasons I am no longer a regular contributor to GW discussion. Most of us have to update our ad blocking tools several times a year to obtain GW without the intrusive ads.

There's a big difference between a "free resource" and a for profit. Even "free resources" have big bills to pay to provide said "free resource".

I understand Paul, and sorry to keep arguing. But I think there is no perfect way. I grew up in Russia and see quite a few people registered on HMF who are living there. It is obvious that $25 for them is not the same as for you or me. Also, a lot of them (perhaps most of them) couldn't pay even if they wanted to due to lack of credit cards or other access to electronic payment systems. I don't know if there are members from other less electronically developed countries, but probably yes. You would be limiting your rose world very much...
Masha

I understand that Masha, its OK! We're not arguing, we're discussing business models, as civilized adults. :-)

Perhaps the only viable future for HMF is to accept advertisers, which I find to be the least desirable solution.

The problem HMF faces would be resolved effectively if even 1/4 of its registered users donated any amount, but at this time only a handful of its hundreds of users have given anything. If you value the service and can afford to donate, then please do. If you can't then we will all understand.

Paul

I just did :-). I couldn't find the donate option so had to pay for membership. I wrote them an email asking to consider the payment a donation and not a subscription. Perhaps it is silly but at least I stand by what I say :-)
Masha

Way to go Masha! Steve at HMF will be very grateful for your generosity.

Lets also remember that HMF remains FREE to everyone, just that SOME of the features are available only to people who donate to HMF's upkeep. Most of the features you use are still available and still completely free.

Very little is free any where anymore. I think HMF is an invaluable tool and am not surprised they're needing to do what they are now. I donated and will also pay their premium just to support them. In doing so I'm hoping this will help out those who can't afford to do that but use the service to look up roses.

As far as another comment made by Masha,
"Next paying feature will be looking at all but one photos with gratuity for the photos contributors. Here are the real earning possibilities and unavoidable intentions."

I don't know about anyone else but the pics I contribute are for my joy in the roses I grow and want to share hoping they help someone else in similar growing conditions. If at any time money starts being charged for pics, which I can't foresee, that's the time I would stop submitting pics.

Perhaps Rutten could investigate the possibility of borrowing a copy of Modern Roses via inter-library loan?

Or perhaps buying an inexpensive used copy on the web?

It is an invaluable site that provides timely and immediately updateable information for no cost. Much of the information comes directly from the growers themselves with all kinds of self correcting mechanisms.....it is an ingenious and wonderful site. I would suggest rutten send them some money for all the wonderful information and help I'm sure he's/she's taken from it free of charge.

Lesdvs,
I have to say I was not the original poster. That comment was not mine.
Masha

There is a misundurstanding. I am speaking of ethics.

The point I raise is that HMF eliminated a few concurent sites free or not by being better and free.

Is becoming a pay site when concurence is eliminated fair?

In other words is a philanthropic association legitimate to be sold to someone expecting revenues for the investment.

In Europe it is definitely considered as illegal, stictly forbiden and immoral. Here you cannot concurence and eliminate other ventures as a philanthropic association with benevolents help and a lot of concurential advantages to become a regular capitalist society when a monopole is built.

If allowed I maintain the next step will be paying access to all but one picture. Eventually through another owner.

It is true that other free websites offering services and information very similar to HelpMeFind have either ceased to exist or are irrelevant because they pale in comparison. That reality, however, is hardly the result of a diabolical conspiracy on the part of HMF.

The folks who originated and now maintain HMF had a vision of what they wanted to accomplish and hoped to contribute to all of us who are passionate about roses (and peonies and clematis). To now accuse them of ulterior motives is to fault them for accomplishing their goal, and for doing the job so well!

In this complex, interconnected and economically strapped world, there are few 'one size fits all' solutions to any problem. I'll gladly pay my 'dues' to HMF and take comfort (and pride) in the fact that the really important services offered by HMF remain available FOR FREE to rose lovers all over the planet.

I'm sorry, but I just had to comment.

"Here you cannot concurence and eliminate other ventures as a philanthropic association with benevolents help and a lot of concurential advantages to become a regular capitalist society when a monopole is built."

This is plain nonsense. Sounds likes some rambling manifesto.

Eric

I am so confused! What the heck does "philanthropic association" have to do with HMF?

Well, I've been moved by this thread. Just paid the "premium" and am glad to do so. Gotta have access to helpmefind.com!

Kate

I really rely on HMF to check for winter hardiness; it's saved me countless times from buying roses that wouldn't make it through my Zone 5 winters. It is a nominal investment for me compared to the price of purchasing several roses that won't survive over the winter.

I used to work on SAP software designing and implementation programs before I retired, and know what a huge effort and countless hours it requires to keep system enhancements and data current. The administrators do a great job and deserve our thanks. I would be lost without this resource.
-terry

Masha, I'm sorry for associating you with the wrong comment. You have my apology.

"philanthropic association".....um do they have a web site?

Now if greed is on the agenda by HMF, it will eventually catch up to them and not in a positive light I'm sure. Greed seems to be in abundance in this society today. But I really don't think this is the case with HMF, its a good site, I like it. Paying the money is better than having no rose website at all.

With all due respect to Rutten, it's apparent that English is not her/his first language. The stridency of the comments s/he has posted here may be, at least partially, a result of translating those thoughts into English.

There exists a wealth of rose related resources in Europe -- first rate gardens, world renowned hybridizers and their nurseries, etc. Given the ease of cooperation and movement among members of the EEC, it would seem that a consortium of those resource might establish a European-based service comparable to HMF that would better serve European tastes, growing conditions and (for lack of a better term) the social/legal standards that are of such enormous concern to Rutten.

As Rutten finds the American model monopolistic, immoral, unethical and illegal, perhaps s/he might spearhead an effort that would comport more closely with the way they do things on the other side of the Atlantic.

Yikes!

Many not-for-profits charge for their services. Not-for-profit is not equal to free. Someone must pay the costs of making those services available -- whether it is volunteer workers, government agencies, private donors, advertisers, or users. Whoever pays decides the scope of the services, either directly or by voting with their dollars.

It was wonderful to have HMF all theses years, but I am not surprised that they must now charge. Let's hope that enough people are willing and able to pay so that this valuable resource will continue to exist.

Rosefolly

Hello Pierre,

We have a system here called, 'grandfathering' that allows individuals to continue doing what they have done in the past even though the rules have changed. It would be great if HMF did so with you and other rosarians around the globe outside the US to show our good will and generousity to you while we get our business in order. HMF opened itself up to being international when it was obvious down the road income would be necessary. I don't think those that were taken in outside our boundaries should suffer our shortsidedness for all along we knew the demands of our culture would make us pay to play.

And the level of this discussion has gotten shrill and nasty -- there is no reason for that to contiue. I hope it does not continue. Let's negotiate a way toward the better and helpful and beware ignorance and bigotry. It's easier to tear something down than to build it and we are all smarter than that.
jimmiegeorge

Personally, I find the cost of being a premium member of hmf to be a bargain, considering that I would have to pay twice that for access to the database for Modern Roses 12.
I have no savvy whatsoever when it comes to the costs of operating or maintaining a website since our local society costs are borne by a contributor. However, I cannot conceive of the remarkable capacities of hmf as being a gift, especially as over time the capacities have morphed into a magnificent edifice with incredible range.

I do not think that Steve has taken this step lightly since I have heard rumblings over the years that a decision of this nature would have to be taken since the original business concept of a site supported by commercial interests did not pan out as nurseries created their own access to customers and vice versa. So I welcome this step as a beginning of financial stability in a time of almost worldwide financial instability. I would much rather pay 24 dollars a year than yield to rank commercialism where access is totally dependent upon ability to pay. If I did not know the quality of people involved in the administration of hmf, I would worry about the beaurocratic tendency to start small and create chaos through administration (usually by limiting knowledge and arcane methodologies). However, given good public guardians like M. Rutten and others, the interest in open access at minimal costs will be protected. JMO.

JimD

jimmiegeorge, *HMF opened itself up to being international*???

This was an OPTION, a conscious choice on the part of HMF???

The vehicle thru which we all tap into HMF is, after all, the www (worldwide web), isn't it? Sorry, but I just don't understand your rationale here (so I, for one, am not *smarter than that*). Please explain a) why all of this brouhaha is the fault of HMF, and b) what you would have expected them to do to limit access to their site.

*I don't think those that were taken in outside our boundaries should suffer our shortsidedness (sic) for all along we knew the demands of our culture would make us pay to play.* What, may I ask, does THAT mean?

You make it sound as tho someone owes someone an apology. To whom should the apology be extended, and why? If I am contributing to, and extending the *shrill and nasty* discussion, so be it. HMF has been shamefully excoriated on this thread -- and for NO reason whatsoever. Enough already.

At the end of the day websites are not free to operate and run. They may be relatively inexpensive when you are just posting information but they cost a great deal more when you are using what I suspect is something like Microsoft SQL or the equivalent. Not to mention the countless hours programming that.

Has anyone here ever gotten the CR List for free or have you paid for it? Is "Find That Rose" in the UK free? It is a rhetorical question because you pay for it if you want it. They donÂt give it away. So is something only worth your money because a printer is involved. IsnÂt Steve at HMF a printer as well?

So why will you pay for the CR list which is static (although invaluable) for a year and not for HMF which grows, changes and responds day to day, hour to hour and minute by minute.

Is something on paper on your shelf worth more just because it is in print? Does it take less work? Is it easier to do? The answer in short is no.

My nursery supports and uses HMF because it is a win-win for both of us. I will cheerfully upload photos, info, new roses, and anything else I can think of because it is not only a great source for keeping records of roses for all to see but because quite honestly I gain from it commerce wise. Steve has implemented some behind the scenes features that are IMO are brilliant in helping us draw in new customers. Why more nurseries donÂt support this is something I don't quite understand but there you are.

I would love to see HMF stay free and openly accessible for all. But be aware that it will only do so if we, the entire rose community, support it via contributions. So if you want HMF to remain open and free, then donate. ItÂs really that simple.

Well.... I have to express myself on a publicity ridden forum ;-)

No problem for me as I only resize the window so that I look only at what I want.

"Has anyone here ever gotten the CR List for free or have you paid for it?"

Yes, actually "Combined Rose List" is free on HMF and that is why Dobson & Schneider little business is dead.

And now that HMF has built a monopole it is an option that could be charged if nurseries do not contribute enough.

There is no conspiracy in the fact that unrestreined management inavoidably leads to bigger incomes.

And unrestreined growth will wet the concerned big ones appetite. Sure way to loose independancy.

The no publicity for independance argument I do not see the sense.
There are few visible editorial expression at HMF. Notations are from visitors and are easy to influence as the contributing rosarians are not numerous and from different not identified climates.

Does Google *we all use* loose its independancy by being *the larger publicity support ever*? Just the contrary. No gazing Balls there: they work at adequation of publicity to the consumer needs.

I know managing publicity is a job that may be difficult for a single man.

There is a simple solution to this problem go to Google site free hosting for a little non agressive publicity on some pages only.

It is a thing they do quite well.

And it is quite easy to negociate without loosing independance. That is hability to resign.

I wasn't aware that Combined Rose List is available on HMF other than the provision of a link to the website nor do I believe that the Dobson/Schneider business is dead. Peter, are you nearby to address this?

To compare HMF to Google is ridiculous, much like putting a Frenchman in a roomful of Americans and expecting him to grasp American philanthropy, capitalism, and our economic struggles. Rutten seems not to understand that, unlike his country, we have little to no governmental support or involvement in gardens and rose resources, that there are not adequate advertising opportunities available to support HMF, and even if there were, no one is available to pursue those options. I can't think of a single rose nursery that is doing more than squeaking through these hard times, making it completely unrealistic to expect them to support the site.

Steve is a techie who began this site out of love for his partner who loved roses. That he sustains and develops it to this day is a miracle I'm thrilled to participate in with my premium membership.

We love it, we use it, we should pay for it. If those of us who can will simply pay our share, we keep it alive and flourishing for all.

Boycott? Heck, no. I donated money when Steve first made that option available, and will gladly pay a membership fee to keep HMF alive and well.

Steve could have announced this better, and maybe even had some dialogue with the site users before deciding what to do. But we've been hearing about the chance to donate, and to become a premium member, for some months, so this isn't new.

Some people really believe that everything on the Internet should be free. My feeling is that we are going to have to evolve past that point. I think that more and more we are going to have to pay for access and content. If I paid a penny for every time that I went to HMF to look for info, I'd probably spend more than $24 in the course of a year.

In the US, we are still capitalists, and a person offering a service has to figure out how to fund it.

I do appreciate Mons Rutten's points that HMF's content is input by a cadre of volunteers, using data found in the CRL or from their own experience. However, that doesn't change the need for Steve to be able to be reimbursed for his expenses and effort.
Anita

I think rutten needs to find another forum for his political angst.

I say we write congress and express our heartfelt desire that the government step in and nationalize HMF! Maybe we can have congress determine that HMF is of strategic importance to the rest of our country.

Souvenez-vous, en France tout ce que vous devez faire est disent que la compagnie est de l'importance stratégique et il peut être nationalisé!

Just my left wing, but still capitalist 2 cents worth!

Just wondering if a college or university partnership was ever explored? (Like Clematis On The Web). A school with a horticultural division, for example.

Or, Ruttan, know anyone at Meilland that would sponsor the entire site? Can we think positively and constructively here?

I agree with Catsrose and Hoovb wholeheartedly -

* I think rutten needs to find another forum for his political angst. *

* Can we think positively and constructively here? *

Friends,

For many years I was an employee of a not-for-profit organization. It was the best job I ever had, but I did need my paycheck to be able continue working there. So did all my fellow employees. Not-for-profit is not the same thing as charity, and even some charities charge small fees for some of their services. Think of the Red Cross charging for first aid classes.

We offered online information of value to universities, museums, and similar institutions. All the data was created by others, not ourselves, and most of it was given to us by our users at no charge. Our costs were for maintaining the data in an appropriate manner and making it easily accessible. The costs for doing this were huge. We charged everyone to search the databases, those who contributed and those who did not. Our services were not cheap, but those who used them thought they were valuable enough that they were willing to pay; that, or they went elsewhere.

Eventually due to a number of factors we found it necessary to merge with another, larger information provider so that our users' data would not be lost. My not-for-profit organization no longer exists. The universities and museums that used our services must now go elsewhere. And yes, they still have to pay.

So it does not seem at all odd to me that HelpMeFind is now charging users a small subscription fee for use. It is a very small fee, after all. And without it, this very valuable reference may not continue to exist.

It is always pleasanter to get something free than it is to pay for it. But when you do, please be aware that someone, somewhere, is paying for it in your place.

Rosefolly

Since my foolish stint last summer on playing "RRD Patrol Hero" with the help of the local paper, my enthusiasm has waned. With my usual lack of foresight I brought mites home on my clothes and I am waiting until Spring to see the extent of the damage in my admittedly monocultured bramble patch.

I have not been on HMF's website for some time. It has changed. The list of Premium Members is truly world wide.

I have been Co-director of a Not-for-profit organization, granted the IAGL is a non entity, but I have been also working with our local ARS club. Neither have any trepidations of hitting up our members for funds or asking for donations from outside sources.

It cost money to run such a venture even with numerous volunteer workers. The troll has nixed any further expenditures until two months slowly pass. I should be able to talk her into this modest contribution when they pass.

I think that HMF said it best themselves:

"HelpMeFind's future is in your hands. Premium membership's modest price of $24 per year only works if most of you participate - that means YOU. You already know how unique HelpMeFind is - it needs YOUR support to survive. It will cease to exist without your support now and no one is going to replace HMF for free - it costs far too much to operate. HMF's size and complexity requires full time support - it has for many years."

Hopefully some of you will step into the breech until I can convince the Holder of The Keys to do the next right thing. Peace!

Foghorn Leghorn
International Anti Grass League

Here is a link that might be useful: Future resources?

Doesn't anyone remember that before iVillage bought GardenWeb from Spike that he was asking for a yearly fee/donation for the upkeep of GW?

Socialism meet capitalism....capitalism this is socialism.

Pierre, my friend, I must tell you that your assumptions and your facts are wrong. Your contention here and on Steve's own website that Steve had sullied Clara's dream is deeply offensive. Steve, not you, had the relationship with Clara for more than 25 years. Your words were harsh.

Fact: HMF does not include data from CRL. Rose availability is independently researched and entered into the HMF database.

Fact: CRL provides a written list of roses in commerce.

Fact: Modern Roses provides a written list of rose names.

Fact: Illustrated encyclopedias of roses provide printed rose pictures.

Fact: Rose books, Modern Roses and patent applications all record rose lineages - - in unrelated, disconnected locations.

Fact: HMF combines all of these things, and much more, instantly accessible, interconnected and searchable using the power of computers and the internet.

Fact: Ever more people want access to roses online. The ARS now makes its database available online. The CRL, like newspapers, must deal with that reality. We call it progress. Progress is not immoral.

Fact: HMF was engineered by its owner, Steve, without outside financial support. What could possibly be more frugal than that?

Fact: One man operating his own website, by definition, cannot be unrestrained management.

Fact: HMF's volunteer admins produce content by adding every new rose, every botanical garden inventory, every patent, every nursery supplier, and every book reference to HMF. Their anonymity is part of the site's opaque inner workings that never disturb users. That users are invited to correct them publicly does not mean their contributions are de minimus.

Fact: If rosarians want HMF to be around, we will need to support it financially. I have personally purchased my premium membership for just that reason. Rose nurseries are not numerous enough or rich enough to provide sufficient financial support for HMF.

I am sorry, but your scenarios does not exist. HMF represents innovation, not monopoly. There is a big difference.

Respectfully,
Cass

Cass--The only thing I would add to your argument is:
'Case Closed!'

JimD

My own experience suggests that often folks just don't understand what goes into a volunteer organization. I once founded a youth athletic program. A few of us did everything from the administration, refereeing to mowing and lining the fields. We worked on this seven days a week.

Not a week went by without some parent complaining about the crappy job we did. When you don't understand something, its easy to find fault.

I, for one love HMF use it all the time. Especially during rose ordering time. I don't use the lineage feature. I enjoy the photos, reviews and the buy from features more than anything. I would gladly pay for this upkeep, as the price is little in camparison to the knowledge gained. Actually when you think about it, the price is probably less then a very wanted rose.
I am quite sure the people at HMF know what is important to those of us that use the site. I can't imagine they would charge for viewing more than one photo, it would be the death of an amazing website and they know that.

Just my two rose petals worth.

Tammy

I DO use the lineage feature, though not constantly.

I was happy to pay my share, to assure that the site doesn't disappear.
HMF simplifies my life in many ways. It's beyond price to me, and -- gee -- $24 bux? NO PROBLEM!

Jeri

Berndoodle, you must have been hellacious to face in a courtroom. My profuse compliments for the case you built.

I love HMF, and had no complaint about paying for it.

I have taught school for most of my life, and I understand the unrealistic expectations that many people have.

HMF has saved me a great deal of money. I like the "remarks" section as well as the photos. If a rose is beautiful, strong, and healthy, but takes years to get started, I appreciate that comment - even if others disagree.

Sammy