You guys are so wonderful, makes me very happy that I asked the question here! Okay, so now the two "flagships" in my initial plan have sunken before the voyage has begun: Freelanders are unavailable (wrote to Greenheart and got no word back), Fariy Tales are no good cut . I am so glad Alec's Red and Tournament of Roses were mentioned, b/c some folks said they perform very well in heat, have strong fragrance and last a long time cut, I was quite tempted, but now that I know about the 4"-5" stems--no different from my Peace--I have to scratch them off the list as well. KITTYMOONBEAM: what's the length of stems on your Tournament? (still feeling tempted...) Just Joey is not good cut???? What a disappointment! My gratitude to everyone for your help and advice. Truth be told I am not eager to acquire another white as I don't need more white for my arrangements. I have Honor, not the most exciting bloom but it's a winner as a cutting rose. It's prolific (5-12 blooms at one time with another 12+ buds growing, yet the plant is only 4' by 2'), quick to repeat (about 1-3 weeks when I feed it well), OPENS COMPLETELY IN THE VASE (most of my other roses failed to do so this year), has a delightful clear scent. So for me to get another white, it'll have to be rather special, I already have a strong candidate in mind: Callista, allegedly has super quick repeats, strong fragrance, also it's not a yellow-tone white like Honor (a magnet to cucumber beetles). Anyone grows Callista??? Luxrosa, I can't believe Tiffany, as a florist type rose, only lasts 5 days for you. I live 4hr north of SFO, right outside the fog belt, if it doesn't last for you, it won't last for me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Can anyone tell me if I should try any of these for cutting? Any of them doesn't do well in heat? I also don't like monster sized blooms, 3"-5.5" is great. Austins: Mustead Wood, Mary Rose, Geoff Hamilton [longing for an Austin :( Heaven on Earth [was dying to have it but saw too many photos of its blooms drooping!] Golden Celebration [nodding? heard great things about it since my day 1 on this forum] Abbaye de cluny [very fragrant, hardy and vigorous? long sturdy stems?] Bride's Dream Neptune [long sturdy tems? prolific?] Diamond Jubilee Rouge Royale [planning to get this one] From Palatine: Traviata, Acropolis, Sweet Victoria Am going to ask Roses Unlimited if they have any Renaissance varieties. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wishing everyone a sweet weekend. RosyBunny

Tom: I am not familiar with red pine in your area. Here in northern VA red pine is not an option. In Garrett county MD they are planted for pulpwood, but have problems with beetles and annosus root rot disease after 30 years or so, and no one is keeping any to grow for timber. In my pine plantings, a few of my red pine are beginning to die. I have been very careful to treat all the stumps of any I cut to keep annosus out, so I am not sure what the cause of the mortality is. I haven't confirmed anything. I keep the trees thinned out so they are vigorous, and should resist beetle attacks. I see evidence of beetles, but I am not sure if they are primary or secondary contributors to death. So, in the area of my timberland I would not recommend planting red pine. But your area may be different. You already have native white pine, and I love those. If I were starting over at my timberland with plantings, I would do larch Norway spruce, and white pine as the main species. Does your forester have any recommendations about the red pine? Has he talked about any risks? In my pine plantings, the Norway spruce, the white pine, and the red pine do well together. The Norway spruce started a bit slower than the red and white pines, but they got going fast enough so that they grow up with them well. With the red pine, I was afraid they would be outstripped by the white pine and Norway spruce, but that has not been a problem. The Norway spruce and the white pine are growing faster, and will eventually be much taller, but after about 40 years, they are still compatable. Of course, you can plant them in seperate blocks, or mix them. I would do some of both kinds of plantings. One consideration with the red pine--the trees don't assert dominance in a stand very readily, which means they need artificial thinning to maintain a healthy stand. Norway spruce will sort themselves out very, very readily, with the stronger trees overtopping, and eventually supressing the less vigorous trees, so they don't NEED thinning. I thin mine to enhance growth a bit, and make the stand prettier, but after 200 years, unthinned NS stands will be just as fine as stands that were thinned. The same is true of white pine, but in my experience, the best trees don't assert dominance quite as readily. As for larch, I just don't know. My guess is that they will be like white pine or NS in this regard, but I don't know that for a fact. So, my bias here is to plant much more white pine than red pine, but I am sure that red pine, which I assume is native there, is for you a much better bet than for me here. Some say red pine is native to the area of my timberland, but I really don't agree. There IS an outlier of native red pine in one spot in WV, but for me that doesn't qualify it as native to Garrett County MD or other places where a naturally growing one has never been seen. As for your not focusing on planting tamarack, I agree. The native species are not always best. We have native red spruce in Garrett county, but they are far inferior to Norway spruce--no contest. But if you have a very wet area, go with tamarack. They are short lived compared to other larches, but occasionally some have lived well over 200 years. As for NS seed source--boy, this is tough. I wish I could see your seedlings from Itasca. If some of them are growing very, very fast--that's something! You may not be able to do better. But, are some growing very, very much faster than others? Are there a fair number of "runts." If so, that could indicate that some of the seed is coming from trees not cross polinated. Two possible solutions: you can either plant them at tighter spacings to give you more trees, and thus more really fast growing ones. Or you can try to mix in seedlings from another seed source. The Musser may be a good choice, but, what performs well for me here might not do so well there. Also, You should check and see if Musser has made any changes in the seed they use in the last 6 years or so. If so, I know nothing about what they might be offering now. One thing surprized me a bit with my NS here. The finest strain I have seen in the higher elevations in the Appalachians was a stand planted near Glady, WV. I dug up some seedlings and planted them at my timberland. I since dug three of those up again and planted them here in the hot and dry northern Shenandoah Valley. I am stunned by their performance here--all three rank as the best of those I have planted here, with the understanding that most of the 400 or so I have planted here are too small to really evaluate yet. But that that strain does so well in the cool wet mountain environment, AND down here, has surprised me. Unfortunately the stand near Glady was cut three years ago--a real shame! I am not sure what you should make of all I am telling you here, but NS is a remarkable species in its variation and adapability. Well, keep me posed on your plans and progress. Oh, I am becomming more and more an admirer of Thuja! --spruce

It depends mostly on your budget and how much of an area you want to cover. Plugs will fill in quickly, but they will be the most expensive. Another advantage of plugs is they are easy to identify and weed around, and you get to decide placement of species. I find growing my own plugs with the "Winter-Sowing" method gives me the biggest bang for my buck. I get the look I want, the ability to hand weed between plants and quicker growth than just sowing seed directly in the ground. WS involves planting seeds in properly prepared milk jugs, or like containers, to germinate and grow outside over the winter/early spring months. Winter snow and rain keep plants moist and stratifying. Growth of seedlings are accelerated come spring due to the greenhouse effect of using milk jugs. You can do a search of this method if you want to learn more. Bare root is sometimes offered instead of plugs because it's easy to transport and/or it is sometimes the preferred method for survival success of some species. It's important to get the plants in the ground and watered ASAP. Sometimes planting can be delayed for a short period with proper storage in the refrigerator. Sowing seeds in fall is the most economical, but as you said, it will take some time for the plants to mature. Placement will also be an issue, but if that's not a concern, it might be the way to go. Sight preparation is most important for success with this method.

Thanks for this nice synopsis! I have only ordered from Well-Sweep once and had the opposite experience with the plants I received, but I should give them another try in case that was just a fluke. At the moment it seems that there are no sources for most of the pink odorata cultivars (and of course, pink Parmas haven't been in known cultivation for many years now and might only exist in Europe if they aren't extinct, which they may well be). If you mean 'Sulfurea' when you refer to a yellow one, then I've seen seed for the cultivar 'Irish Elegance' from time to time and strongly suspect the "orange" odorata sold by Well-Sweep could be 'Sulfurea' or perhaps even 'Crepuscule' or another such hybrid of 'Sulfurea'. There are no yellows aside from those, however, and none of them comes particularly close to approximating the actual color yellow. Stefan