Time and Patience
The following posts were extracted from another thread and reposted here for the purpose of topic focus and continuity:
Posted by sandandsun 9a FL (My Page) on
Mon, Jan 7, 13 at 13:59
I wholeheartedly agree with the (idea, ed.) that time is probably the most significant factor in how good a rose looks.
I try not to be brutally frank here, because anything stated that way brings out the politeness police, and so I've hinted before about the significant difference between gardeners and all the others - exhibitors, those that grow for the vase, those in the trade, etc., for examples. That difference is that gardeners grow roses to be part of the garden/garden landscape. They consider the ultimate height and spread when planting and plant to allow for and accommodate maturity. And then they wait years. Now the waiting patiently part is not always accurate; it may be more accurate to say that they wait with discipline.
I noticed a long while ago that the photos on HMF are often of young plants and I realized that was one reason we weren't seeing many full bush photos there.
There are many photo sets on HMF that support the time argument by documenting early flowering years and subsequent ones. In some cases the contrast is drastic. This is rarely discussed, but a worthy subject.
Here on these forums, folks often report on their initial impression of a rose in its first year. Some even rant and lambast early performance AS IF the rose were some well-paid contractor whose work was shoddy. I exercise disciplined patience with plants, but I find it increasingly difficult to have any patience with those kinds of posts. The worst part is not that posts of that sort have little or no value; it is that these posts potentially malign a rose that might not deserve it. And the scary part is that I think that there are organizations that teach this behavior and have for many a year. The damage done by such "authorities" may be irreversible because of the enduring nature of ideas.
Not to mention the reinforcement of those ideas here: GARDEN web.
In sum, such commentary reflects less poorly upon the rose in the eyes of a plant person than upon the individual growing it.
Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on
Mon, Jan 7, 13 at 16:24
Sandandsun - I agree completely, and you put it so well! As Melissa points out with her now mature rose bushes planted in 2005, it can take several years for roses to grow into their glory. Patience is not only virtue, it is a necessity.
I also have NO patience with those such as my local ARS affiliated rose society - they "shovel prune" HALF of the roses in their small rose garden each year, and replace them with the "exciting" new introductions. None of their roses ever get a chance to mature.
We all need to help newbies - the Lord knows, I am still a newbie about many things, but when I read a post one here about some rose or another that is only 6 months or a year old, and the poster plans to dig it up and discard it because it is not living up to their expectations, I have to take a really deep breath prior to trying to explain why they should not.
Jackie
Posted by sandandsun 9a FL (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 0:08
I bite my keyboard - I mean my tongue.
The frequency at which it occurs, and moreover the tenacity and ferocity of its presentation when I read it, has become increasingly unbearable.
Some folks should ONLY grow Knock-Outs. Knock-Outs are designed for that market. They are the closest thing to instant gratification that exists in the world of roses. And I truly believe that the market is still less than saturated.
In the case of the society I could only speculate. Maybe they have very limited space? Or they believe that they must function as a "test garden" without understanding what that actually involves. (That's me biting my keyboard).
I'm so glad that someone feels that I have been sufficiently tactful. In future when I'm seething with commentary, I will try to remember to reference this thread. There truly is no reason to have to input it repeatedly. Maybe if enough of those posts get pointed to this thread, some effect will become evident?
This post was edited by sandandsun on Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 0:34
Posted by jeannie2009 PNW 7/8 (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 9:26
Yowie..so good to hear others who look at life as I do. We live 1/4 mile from South Puget Sound within the Oakland Bay watershed. Runoff from excessive fertilizing is incredibly damaging to the Sound. My neighgbor works for Taylor Shellfish. He really grits his teeth when he hears about people in the ARs who recommend applying the blue stuff Miracle Grow every week to 10 days to improve the bloom display. The oysters cringe more than he does.
We actually walk the pastures to pick-up poops and put in the compost pile, rain or shine. I know that's over the top.
Thanks for letting me squawk.
Jeeannie
ps. I dont like to toot my own horn, but I am a certified master gardener. The program is nationwide. They are available to answer questions aand provide direction .One of their stated missions is to do no harm.
Posted by mendocino_rose z8 N CA. (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 10:12
I agree. Patience is a virtue in gardening. I think some people should grow Knockout to begin with. Perhaps it will give them confidence to go on and grow with their gardening experience.
Posted by jardineratx 9tx (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 10:39
I am truly enjoying this discussion regarding the patience needed in growing roses. I, myself, didn't know in the early years of rose growing that old garden roses take years to develop and mature, although the folks at A.R.E. did share that information with me when I purchased my first OGR. I guess there was a little bit of incredulity in me because the only roses I had been exposed to in my youth were the hybrid teas offered by Jackson and Perkins that my mom ordered each year. Those roses greened up and grew quickly, were pruned every February, and grew right back to their original size by the end of the summer. Well, now there is NO doubt in my mind that time is the best thing that we can provide an OGR. They are so often ugly ducklings that eventually become the beauties we want them to be. The trick is to not discard these ugly ducklings too quickly. I also found that fertilizing and pruning them to death is not helpful in getting them to their awesome maturity.
Molly
Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 12:39
I freely but with some shame admit to being one of the offenders, and in earlier days on a large scale. Some of the roses that I discarded could not stand the concentrated heat here, but who's to say they might not have toughened up in future years. Harlow Carr and Angels Camp Tea are two such examples. Also Janet, which I should have moved instead of discarding. I have no such regret for General Tartas and Monsieur Tillier, which crisped in the heat, because I came to learn that I greatly prefer roses on the cool end of the pink spectrum for my garden. A recent rose I discarded, The Dark Lady, would probably anger some since it was very healthy, with a great root system, leaves and flowers. However, it was bright red instead of more on the purplish side, and I found the rose to be much too modern-looking for my taste. The Duchess of Albany, a sport of La France, was placed in her spot, and I'm infinitely happier. More and more I respond to roses that look antique, whether of recent or older vintage. Overall, though, the true regrets are not huge in number since color is terribly important to me, and quite a few didn't make the cut for that reason, and I feel no guilt, especially since a good number found new, more appreciative homes. Nevertheless, the basic premise of giving a rose a chance to mature, assuming there are no aesthetic considerations, is an extremely sound one. I've been nursing a small twig of Chaucer, a side shoot of a very poor specimen I was sent where the one main cane died, for well over a year now even though it's barely grown at all. Maybe that's veering too far in the other direction but who can say? It may surprise me yet. In my case the use of precious water is also an important consideration. I think ultimately it still must be the gardener's choice, since factors may enter into the decision to discard a rose that the forum is not aware of. We all grow roses for different reasons and so our reasons for discarding one will also be different, and perhaps not always understandable to others. As long as I can justify that reason to myself (which in retrospect in some instances is not the case), I'm content.
Ingrid
Posted by campanula UK Cambridge (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 17:36
well hey, the main reason I do not discard stuff willy-nilly is because I am a cheapskate. I am not impatient but I am avid for knowledge and mostly, the best way to get it is to keep on trying things out. For sure, it takes a long time for shrubs and trees to reveal their full potential and I feel these years laying heavily - so many things to find out, to experiment with, to learn.....and truly, without sounding desperately arrogant, there is very little to learn from many books and magazines. They deal in the unversal while I want to know specifics. There is often an agenda - to push this or that new fad or whim, while I want to learn techniques and skills through hands-on experience. And I need to know what works for ME, in MY garden, in my area, with my budgets, philosophy and style
Also, it may take a long time for a plant to reach maturity but I know whether the plant is going to be good in my garden in a fraction of a full growth cycle. I am not building a garden which will ever be completed - I am gardening, evolving, learning, changing. I want to be flexible, dynamic and open to other ideas....and in order for this to happen, we take risks, we make mistakes, we learn. And also, I am barely breaking the surface of gardening knowledge when I want to roam deep and far - how many more summers will I have, how many more plants do I want to sow, plant, taste, feel, smell?
So no, although I rarely discard a plant for any aesthetic reason, I would never, ever disparage anyone who does - these brave souls are often the innovators, the strivers, the boundary-pushers, not just sheeple following the latest must-have lifestyle accessories. Cut them a break, SandandSun. I have been sniffy and even a bit supercilious myself (not an attractive trait of mine) but curiosity is a useful trait, I think.
Posted by rosefolly Z9/S16 NCal (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 18:08
Perhaps it could be said that we grow patience as gardeners if we allow ourselves to do so. Most of us first come to gardening with great plans and hopes of transforming a small piece of the earth. It takes some trial and error to develop a long perspective. To some it never comes. To those of us for whom it does, it it one of the many gifts of becoming a gardener.
Recently I have been planting ornamental trees in the bare area outside my fence. I hope to live long enough to see them make a significant presence in the landscape. I will never see their maturity.
Rosefolly
Posted by julia034 none (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 18:39
Thats ok look at what we leave behind for others to love.
JULIA
Posted by lbuzzell z10 CA (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 20:36
I'm so relieved to read Melissa's post. I grow my roses the same way - with toughlove. Amazingly, I have lost very few. And now the rewards are coming after years in the ground (2006 was my big planting year). During those first few years I was sure I was doing something wrong. Most of my roses are teas, chinas, noisettes, locally discovered HPs with "" names and other foundies, received as bands from Vintage or rooted cuttings from fellow OGR lovers, based on recommendations from local experts like Jeri. Like our fruit trees, they take time to mature, but when they come into their own in the garden they're proud, tough and beautiful survivors.
Posted by sandandsun 9a FL (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 22:55
I want to add that my comments are on the subject in general and not in reference to any specific post - or I would have posted them in a specific thread rather than in this thread with its related general subject.
Also, I read and post on this and the main Rose Forum. I chose to post here since OGRs are mostly available own root, and the evidence of experience more likely resided in this forum.
I could agree with the idea that one could have early indication of a plant's potential for success in one's garden, but not that one could know whether a plant is going to be good in one's garden in a fraction of a full growth cycle. That is my point - that plants will not demonstrate their full potential until after they have become established.
I completely agree that personal preference is nonnegotiable, but I don't see that this truth detracts at all from my point. I retreat on my statements not a bit.
rosefolly:
"To some it never comes." - So very true.
I hope very much that your personal prognostication will not be accurate or even nearly so.
Comments (6)
sandandsunOriginal Author
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