I did spend all day Saturday wandering the gardens, from stem to stern and this was still out in the OGR bed between the Austin beds and the Teas/Chinas. I was quite pleased because my first "found rose", Crestline Mulberry, is still growing in that bed. Arena offered it in his first catalog.

Mr. Moore encountered this while traveling in South Africa. He thought it might make a good root stock so he smuggled in material for it. To his chagrin, it won't function as a stock at all. It only got released because of those of us who urged him to let things like this loose. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Ralph Moore's South African OGR'

Whatever that is, it reminds me strongly of "Gilbert Plot," "McBride Plot," et al. One of those things we have found a version of EVERYWHERE in NoCalif.

Jeri

I was so excited to get this rose a few years ago from Ashdown Roses. Much to my disappointment, after waiting two years for it to flower, my rose turned out to be a lovely specimen of Manetti. The photo on HMF sure is a pretty rose.

There is a conversation going on at HMF that suggests that this might be the rose known as Charles Lawson. Whether or not that is true, Tessiess, you might take a look at Charles Lawson to see if s/he would satisfy you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Charles Lawson

The Moore South African found rose is the same plant that Heirloom once grew as 'Charles Lawson', and it is found, as Jeri suggested, all up and down the West coast. It is in the old cemetery in Salem, OR, and its been seen in old plantings in Eugene, and many, many sightings in NorCal. Is it 'Charles Lawson'? Who knows. It has Bourbon-esque traits, is once blooming and can make a very handsome, widely arching shrub, with minimal prickles, sumptuously full pink blooms, good scent and thrives on neglect. Who needs a name when you have all that going for you?

Charles Lawson sounds like my kind of rose----it has all the features I love in a rose---

Thanks

Florence

Me too.....I added it to my Wish List.

Susan

Note -- It can mildew and rust, where those diseases are a big problem.

Jeri

The plant was bullet proof in Newhall, but once the buds set, the high heat was always fast on their heels, so I seldom got more than a week to ten days of bloom. That was NOT a lot of bang for the space that plant requires in a warm climate. Kim

Thanks Kim for all that background information. That makes me want this rose even more--it makes it special the connection with Ralph Moore and the travelling the rose took to make it here. Looked simply lovely at the Huntington, and Bourbons tend to do well for me. Added together means something I will wait to get.

Since you told me a story, I have one for you. It was at the reception at Great Rosarians on Sunday, and I was talking to Judy Polinsky and Myriam Hu about the scrumptious rose and almond poundcake and rose cookies they had provided. They were telling which roses were in them, and also which roses tended to make good rose water and which didn't, including info about colors and such. They have tested MANY roses in the Huntington's collection and learned quite a lot. Well the poundcake was made from Francis Dubreuil, and the cookies from The Dark Lady, William Shakespeare 2000, and Francis Dubreuil. All red roses. So I started asking about roses on the table being used for decoration, smelled a few and compared, then asked how well they made rosewater and picked up on what was perhaps a good fragrance for this. So I asked about a rose that was a particular favorite of mine in my mother's rose garden, one that I thought had this smell, and a really favorite fragrance of mine. The rose? Oklahoma. And what did they say, oh yes it made excellent rose water, as did another rose with a place name--Barcelona. Interesting no?;)

Tessiess, thank you. To "distill" that down a bit for you. The plant of Francis Dubreuil in the Tea and China bed there they would have taken the flowers from, I propagated from cuttings Mike Lowe sent me there from the plant he imported from Peter Beales. It is IDENTICAL in every detail to the old, commercially produced plant of Barcelona in the main garden. I propagated from both of these often for rose sales while a volunteer there.

Fragrant, dark red, velvety roses are renowned for flavoring foods. Two things I would offer if you intend to use them. The actual petal base is often quite bitter tasting so not using will improve the flavor of your food. The second you probably know, but I've frequently been astounded people didn't think of. Don't eat anything from plants which have had systemics used on them. I remember a woman asking me years ago why the Chrysler Imperial she grew here was different from the one she grew in Israel. I asked her how. She said there, it imparted a wonderful flavor to her food. Here, it was bitter and gave her a stomach ache. I asked if she used systemics and she responded she did. I told her to her rose, she was a hundred pound aphid!

25+ years ago, there was a wonderful lady, I believe her name was Sherry Briddick and she was from Riverside or San Bernardino (hopefully, someone will know her or she'll respond), who volunteered in the Herb Garden. She had her mother's Cl. Mlle. Cecile Brunner, from which she made Cecile Brunner Rose Petal Jelly. She always made sure not to use the white petal base as she stated it was far too bitter. The jelly was a transparent, light pink with slight brownish tint and tasted like a mild currant with the after taste of the rose scent. It was amazing on fresh, hot oatmeal hazel nut toast with lots of butter and fresh coffee with half and half. I remember that jelly well! Thanks. Kim

I propagated a found rose from the Sacramento HRG cemetery (Dr. Peck's 12th Avenue Smoothie) which is felt to be the same as Charles Lawson in commerce.
I planted it in my backyard along the fence where prior owners had a horseshoe pit. It was very sandy soil in that area (in an otherwise very heavy clay lot). The plant has grown by leaps and bounds and is suckering happily. Hoping it puts on a nice display this spring.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Peck's 12th Ave Smoothie/? Charles Lawson

"Smoothie"??? Is this rose smooth?
Because otherwise, at least in THIS pix, it reminds me strongly of "Linsley Plot Quartered Pink"!!!

Jeri

Thanks for the tip on Charles Lawson. I have handy one of my old Heirloom catalogs, the 1992-93 one, and on page 7 it has Bourbons and this listing for Charles Lawson:

"CHARLES LAWSON: Huge, very double old rose blooms of rich, bright pin on a very vigorous bush with dark green foliage. Fragrant. Repeat blooming. 5 ft. (1853) BO606 7.95"

Unfortunately no comments on thorns!

Then in the back on page 75, "Roses That Will Grow In Shade", Charles Lawson is 1 of 5 Bourbons included (the others being Bourbon Queen, Commandant Beaurepaire, Honorine de Brabant, and Louise Odier).

I'm waiting to see if my Ralph Moore's S.A OGR will bloom this year. Right now canes are purplish with few thorns.

I want to make some rosewater. I had some delicious iced tea with rosewater and pine nuts in New Orleans.

Dr. Peck's 12th Ave Smoothie, which may be the same as Charles Lawson (in commerce) is indeed smooth, except for nasty prickles on the backs of the leaves. A cane raked across my face once, not a pleasant experience and I looked like I'd lost a catfight.

It suckers and is absolutely healthy for us in Sacramento, as are most of the Hybrid Bourbons/Hybrid Chinas. Only blooms once, though.

I've been told that this rose does not match the historical description of Charles Lawson.
Anita

I had a Charles Lawson that succumbed to what I think was probably downy mildew. Its parent plant was collected from an old garden by the person who gave me mine. Since hers is still thriving, I don't think this disease is a particular susceptibility of this rose.

I don't remember it being especially thorny, but I simply don't recall if it was thornless, either. So many roses over the years, and alas, I didn't have that one very long.

It was very pretty.

Rosefolly