What you may be missing is that nothing should be followed to the letter. In WS or life for that matter IMHO. The purpose of following the instructions you posted was to see how you method worked. Following them "to the letter", is what anyone else would have done to give it a try the first time. After trying the method the first time following the instructions you posted, would be the time to make any changes that would improve the method as a whole or for an individual person. In this particular method of packing up seeds, there is nothing to improve on as it isn't one that is going to work, IMHO and experience. "You changed the conditions by using tape. Would that be an absolute? Was it even mentioned? Would some other kind of tape be a better choice? (if it were needed at all)" Yes, I added the tape that was not mentioned. and yes it is an absolute to need the tape. For bubble envelopes to go through the post office at the large envelope rate, there are certain requirements to meet. One of them is for them to be uniform in thickness and slightly bendable. The straws, once placed in the bubble envelope moved around. If there where more than 3 in the envelope, they moved around when the envelope was moved into different positions, bunched up at one end and the bubble envelope was no longer uniform in thickness. Mailing it this way, without the tape would end up having the bubble envelope cost more, go as parcel rate and if you tried to send it as first class, there wouldn't be enough postage on the envelope. The tape used, scotch magic tape, was and is the best tape to use to hold down anything and the easiest to remove from anything. "You said the seeds stuck in the straws. Were they 100% dry going in? Were the straws 100% dry? Any moisture in the seed would cause problems no matter what method you use to package them." Oh yes, my seeds are as dry as you can get and have been stored in paper coin envelopes made from scrap paper for months. Tiny seeds couldn't be any dryer either and they are stored in plastic prescription medicine bottles from the local pharmacy. None of the seeds stick to the inside of the bottles. The seeds are stored inside a house with forced hot air heat, can't get any dryer than that, and heat that has been running since mid October daily. The straws couldn't have been any dryer either. In newly purchased boxes that where never opened till Sunday and been in the house, in the dry heat for almost 3 months. The issue of the seeds stuck in the straws is not an issue of how dry the seeds are or not, or how dry the straws are or not. The issue with the straws is the same as with the ziplock baggies, static electricity that holds onto and all but cements the small and tiny seeds to them. The don't come out without shredding the baggie or flushing he seeds out of the straws. OR, you just give up and toss some of the seeds out. "Constant, steady, heavy pressure on the packets for extended periods of time? "I dont believe that this is, in any way, an accurate recreation of real world conditions trades may encounter as they traveled thru the postal system." This was a perfect recreation of the abuse that our mail gets going through the postal system. From what my letter carrier has described to me at various points in time, our flat mail, first class mail, bubble envelopes get tossed around as if they where balls, have heavy packages placed on top of them and get tortured through the postal system before being given to the local letter carrier for delivery. This is one of the many reasons that bubble envelopes need to be used to ensure the safest way of transporting seeds from one location to another. If I had young children in my home which I don't, my children are all grown adults in their mid twenties an early thirties, I would have had them playing catch with the bubble envelopes for an hour to simulate the abuse they would receive going through the postal system. "As far as time, cutting, and folding, and taping and writing and sealing seems it would be a little more time consuming than using a stapler." Though I don't find it time consuming, it is much easier than using the pressure of staples and worrying about the seeds getting stuck in the straws, caused by static electricity, which is the same thing that happens when using the ziplock baggies, especially when putting small and tiny seeds in them. I do my best to reduce my plastic consumption as well. The gallon ziploc bags I use to cover my containers for WS, all get dried in the sun, packed up and reused till they can't be reused again. Usually at least 2 WS seasons and sometimes more. The same with the glad press and seal that I use for WS as well. Printer paper is a non issue in my house as well, the printer is well used and going at least 3 times a week for various things and hubby's work. I print out at least 800 packets in less than 2 hours during the summer months and know what my gardens will produce in seeds, so the cutting, folding, labeling is done long before the seeds are collected. And yes, if the printer is not used once a week, you damage the printer heads, clog them up and need new ones. May as well be printing out seed packets to keep the printer heads running. Fran

I know the original poster is not going to use electric fence. But since it came up, I will chime in. If you use electric fence, my advice is to make sure it is always hot. Once the animals learn that it is not always hot, they have incentive to find ways to test it. For example, they might push other animals into the fence (pigs do this), or sniff it (I don't think it is smell, but if you are at the right distance from the fence, you can feel a weak zap that is not painful). Etc. Or they may associate the sound with the fence being hot. I don't think the wire makes noise, but the fence energizer does. And if there is any brush in contact with the hot wire, then there will usually be an audible arcing sound where the fence arcs to the brush. Also, it pays to use a very strong energizer. This ups the ante on experimentation. I have goats, and when I was using a weak energizer, they eventually decided that getting shocked once or twice while they jumped over or walked under the fence wasn't really that bad. When I got a stronger energizer, they started staying inside again. --McKenzie

joyful, >> Your job (maybe "succession of jobs/employment positions") haven't been downsized to offshore, I assume? Au contrare, never assume! I'm in the IT industry and have been since the late 70's. Ever hear of "mainframes" (DOS/VSE, VM, MVS) .... my industry has been through enormous changes and is a poster child for not only downsizing but offshoring, rightsizing, partnering etal. It's caught many by surprise. Fortunately, I've not been one of them due in large part to my "diversification". I've adapted, embraced the underlying changes and have developed "new" skills that are much harder to outsource. In the IT industry those are client-facing expertise, business area management, negotiation, contract management, busines intelligence/analytics etc. >> where will the money come from, and how will it come to us, for us to buy the stuff? In the US we are poor savers hence the need for investment capital is met my foreign investment. The U.S. economy is throwing off high investment returns that attract foreign capital from around the globe (where free-market capitalism, continues to spread at a breathtaking pace). That fuels business expansion and jobs. The average monthly job creation over the past two years is running at 179,000, more than five times the GM layoff total. >> where's the money to come from to pay my pension (s)? ..Sure glad I'm not a retiree from Enron! Unfortunately many companys will not survive, even those that are today successful. Those that have all their eggs in a single basket that is dependent on OTHERS (co pension, SS etc) may want to think of taking a lump sum distribution as opposed to a lifetimme annuity. Unfortunately it appears our current courts are allowing companies to walk-away from pensions as part of reorganization and dumping the obligations on the PBGC. Legislation requiring 3rd party management (similar to 401k's) may be the only answer. In the US defined benefit plans (pensions) are going the way of the dodo. Bob

I appreciate this topic gibby, because it's all been swirling and twirling in my head as I see our standards of living have changed. I was telling dh this morning that I was grateful we did our remodeling when we did, as I think none of it would have happened if ''then'' were ''now''. Fortunately for us, we didn't do any of it until we could pay for it, and we bought our home before housing prices shot through the roof. You know, now that I think about it, our Standards haven't really changed, only the amount of dollars I feel free to make choices with have. I waste far less, and value what I do have more. In fact, thinking about it realistically, I feel like I've always been able to live well, even on little money because I don't actually value the things people have...yet more their personal qualities. Whatever happens, I know I have the skills to get through it. I've had no money, and ''some'' money, and fortunately know how to economize. It doesn't bother me to drive an old car, or do my entertaining at home. I don't get in my car anymore however, and ''go places'' like I used to! It wouldn't hurt most of us to eat less, drive less or consume less of almost everything. Reuse and recycling as a lifestyle because it's necessary, is good for the planet. Finding alternative choices to fossil fuels is going to be painful until we figure it out, and the high price of oil/food looks like the spark that's finally going to bring about change. Our personal struggle with this economy is figuring out what it's going to take (in the future) to live on a fixed income as we near retirement. More of our $$ seem to go now to cover basic living expenses, whereas before we were better able to save. A friend of mine is worried for her newly married daughter and son-in-law who don't seem to have a handle on how to manage their money. It's their generation I'm also concerned for as they seem less skilled at how to handle credit, and so many feel entitled to have it all. They don't want to buy anything ''used'', even when they don't have the $ to manage their desires. Bankruptcy is a term that is part of their vocabulary as they try to figure it out. You know, it often takes a crisis to learn how to rise to the challenge. I'm just grateful that today, I feel capable of coping! The good news is, with all that's changing so drastically...we're all in the same boat. As our priorities take a different shape, hopefully so do our values as a society.