It is very tricky but can be done. First advice: Wait till spring to do this, because it will take a good part of a growing season for the grass to recover.

Vertical mow with blades set at the widest setting of no less than 3-inches apart in one direction only and one pass only. Rake up debris, fertilize and keep moist for a few weeks so new roots will not dry out and take hold. If you really want to do it right top-dress right after you vertical mow. It will look like crap after you are done, just be patient and it will recover if you do not over do it.

If you are still getting roots above ground, there is too much moisture. Is there much shade back where the thatch remains?

We did the initial dethatch in our Florida lawn with a manual dethatching rake. It is a physical workout, that's for sure, but if you enjoy that sort of thing like we do it's kinda sorta fun. Not for weekend warriors, though, especially if the lawn is much size. You won't need a gym for a week but a chiropractor might be warranted :)

It removed piles and piles of dead plant material, and yes- the lawn looked like heck for a couple of months. But with some good food and topdressing as suggested above it recovers quickly.

That's the best quality about St. Augustine- it is one resilient turfgrass.

No offence, but Floratam makes one the ugliest looking turfs out there. To a degree, it resembles crabgrass.

Why don't take this as an oportunity to improve your turf with a better viriaty of St. Augustine that is finer bladed, darker green, and less prone to thatch?

If the lawn you are refering to is in full sun, then I would wait until spring and round up St. Agustine and overseed with Princess 77 bermudagrass, or better yet, get some zoysia sod!

Now, if you are adamant about keeping your Floratam and don't want to spend too much $$$, I suggest you bring your mower down to the lowest setting, scalp the heck out of the lawn, rake whatever the mower didn't get, fertilize, water, and you're done. I would deffinately wait until the spring to do this.

Check out this website, is got a picture of Floratam and Palmetto during winter in Jacksonville, FL.

http://www.landscape-america.com/grasses/palmetto.html

Auteck-

Floratam has the best drought tolerant for st augustine and it LOVES SUN, better than zoysia and not far behind bermuda. Way better than any st aug varieties... That is a very stupid suggestion to get rid of it and replace with much higher maintenance like Princess 77.

One evaulation in Texas where it didnt rain for 2 months... Floratam had 90% recovery. Next best st aug variety was Palmetto at 50%. Zoysia was behind Floratam, believe it or not.

I wouldn't scalp st aug at all because it brings in more sunlight to the ground... you get weeds. Maybe mow at 2 inches at the lowest when it's starting to grow.

Floratam is aggressive spreader so ease back on watering (go as long as possible between watering IF NEEDED) and fertilizer. Try soybean in the spring and fall and alfalfa in the summer and winter plus molasses spraying each time to see it it keeps thatching under control.

A lot of guys say that with organic program, thatching problem isn't much of an issue.

Thanks everyone for the input. This sounds like a serious/scary undertaking.

T-W: Can a vertical mower be spaced more than 3 inches? What should I top dress with? Sand, topsoil etc?

dchall: The area is in full sun. The shaded areas are not affected at all. I am only watering 1x per week with 3/4" of water. The thatch area will start to wilt 2-3 days before the rest of the lawn.

cearbhaill: Thanks for the info, I think I'll stick with the power mower.

auteck: no offense taken. I am seriously afraid to scalp the thatch area. If I were to set my mower all the way down, only the stolons would remain. There would be no leaf blades at all.

lou_midlothian_tx: I completely agree. I am not going to replace my lawn.

I have been mowing at 4.25". If I took it down to 2" I would seriously scalp the thatch areas.

I only water when the about 50% of the lawn shows signs of stress. About once a week.

About the feedings. I have pretty much been doing what you stated above, minus the molasses. Should I continue feeding my lawn through winter? Temps over the last month have been in the 80's. My last feeding was in October with alfalfa @ 101bs per 1000sqft. How much and what kind of molasses should I use?

A lot of guys say that with organic program, thatching problem isn't much of an issue.
I have also heard that before, and was hoping that to be true. But, it's been 3 years since I made the switch and not much of a change.

I have a question... are you talking about a thick layer of DEAD stolons, etc that is impeding water drainage into the soil? I think that's a true definition of thatch.

If it's just live stolons growing everywhere... well There isn't anything to worry about as long as they break down quickly. I have the same problem and it seems to happen with very aggressive st augustine like floratam and sapphire. It doesn't seem to be a problem with Palmetto but Floratam is taking over Palmetto anyway.

As an experiment last spring on the mowing at different height in remote area that I never go to- I went all the way to the lowest setting (different height per strip of lawn)and they all came back just fine. I probably wouldn't worry about 2 inches considering i went as low as one inch. There will be stolons right on the ground and the stolons that was growing on top of them will be gone. The stolons on the ground will grow new grass quickly and it won't feel as spongy if you know what I mean. Small kids have hard time walking through my front yard. Some poor kids fell down when they tried to get to the front door for trick and treating...

About molasses, I get them at walmart - it should say unsulfured molasses. Supposedly you want unsulfured blackstrap molasses but I've never seen all 3 words together. I use ortho dial with equal part of apple cider vinegar and molasses and set at 2oz and just spray it away till the container is empty (full container to begin with) in front yard and repeat with another full container in the back.

I would just stick to 3 months interval feeding at 20lbs per 1000sqft alternating soybean meal and alfalfa pellets and see it that slows down growth a bit overall. At least that is my plan.

Skoot, try some compost for top-dressing if you can afford it, as it will speed up decomposing the left-over dead material over say something like sand.

For spacing 3-inches is the minimum, no max limit, it depends on the machine. The reason you do not want to go less than 3-inches is with SA is because SA spreads by above ground runners and if you cut them to fine, it will just rip it all up and leave you with nothing for seed stock to regenerate. That is why I stated one direction and one pass only. Rake up the debris, top-dress, fertilize, and monitor moisture levels. WAIT TILL SPRING.

There is a thin (less then an inch) layer of dead/decaying material directly on top of the soil. But, For the most part, it appears to be "live" stolons intermingled everywhere.

It does have a spongy feel to it when walked on. Both my young boys have a hard time walking/running in it.

Would a Pic help? I can post one later tonight.

What is the apple cider vinegar used for?

Vinegar = non-slective herbicide = grass killer

TW: Thats what I thought. Didn't know if there was a difference. I use regular vinegar in my plant beds to kill weeds.

I cannot afford compost. Will the bagged compost, topsoil, hummus etc work? Or a mix of them? I can get free composted horse manure from a local barn.

I completely agree with you about the spacing on the mower. What would be the preferred spacing?
Also, what is your take on scalping vs. vertical mowing in the spring.

Scalping on SA = Forget it, very bad idea on SA.

Compost Question: Any material will do to eat the left over dead plant material, Compost is the best, whatever the origin of compost might be, work your way down through the food chain to find what you can afford (compost, top soil, dirt, sand, whatever). Something is better than nothing at all.

Horse manure? Are you kidding me? Best chit Mother Nature ever produced! Mix it up with clippings, leaves, garbage, etc... Rest it (compost) over the winter, and you got pay dirt.

Spacing?: 3-inches is good. 1-pass, 1-direction only: IMO SPRING TIME.

OK?

Apple Cider Vinegar is just food for microbes when diluted. I use it because it helps thin out molasses to make it easier for it to get sucked up by Ortho Dial sprayer. It also help keep pH down in water. Google for the benefits of using apple cider vinegar. Molasses/Vinegar mix should do the trick for breaking down dead material for a lot less cost than compost (and much easier work). There is no need for compost if you have already done it in the past and been feeding them with grains. The microbes should still be there. Molasses will really boost microbes population. I do it every few months.

Honestly, I don't think you can harm st aug lawn that much when mowing at 2-3 inches height to get rid of excessive stolon growth. I will do it again in the spring when they are actively growing (April). I've done it and it helped reduce the "spongy" feeling. I wouldn't recommend any lower than 2 inches. You can experiment and find out but Floratam has very aggressive growth and should recover in no time.

They are not the same thing at all. Apple Cider vinegar was fermented from apple obviously and is loaded with trace nutrients. Fruit vinegar is made from the fermentation of a variety of fruits. Apples are most commonly used, but grapes, peaches, berries and other fruits also work. The product label will identify the starting ingredients, such as "apple cider vinegar" or "wine vinegar". Malt vinegar is made from the fermentation of barley malt or other cereal grains. Sugar vinegar is made from sugar, syrup, or molasses. White, spirit, or distilled vinegar is made by fermenting distilled alcohol. Distilled white vinegar is made from 190 proof alcohol that is fermented by adding sugar and living bacterial. Natural vinegar contains at least fifty trace minerals. Vinegar that is made from the petroleum derivative, 99% acetic acid, is not acceptable in an organic program.

lou_midlothian:

quote:

"That is a very stupid suggestion to get rid of it and replace with much higher maintenance like Princess 77."

You obviously were offended by my comments, you must have a St. Augustine lawn. Princess 77 makes an actual turfgrass unlike Floratam St. Augustine. Noone in this thread is discussing turf maintainance, but since your mentioned it, St. Augustine it's not that far behind in maintenance compare to bermuda.

Quote:

"Floratam has the best drought tolerant for st augustine and it LOVES SUN, better than zoysia and not far behind bermuda"

ALL turfgrasses love sun, St. Augustine is no different. Nothing new here in case you did not know. There reason wrote that in there is because unlike Bermudagrass, St. Augustine does have shade tolerance. About the only thing it does better.

I grew up in South Florida as some of you know, so I'm very familiar with St. Augustine grass because it rules down there.

quote:

"One evaulation in Texas where it didnt rain for 2 months... Floratam had 90% recovery. Next best st aug variety was Palmetto at 50%. Zoysia was behind Floratam, believe it or not. "

Nothing new here either. Most turfgrasses now day can go without water for periods of time and make almost full recovery. And to correct you, St. Augustine grass dos not have better drought tolerance than Zoysia cut at the same hight. The difference is that Zoysia is usually cut around 3/4" to 1 1/2" short vs 3" to 4" for St. Augustine. The higher cut grass will have deeper roots as a result.

quote:

"I wouldn't scalp st aug at all because it brings in more sunlight to the ground... you get weeds. Maybe mow at 2 inches at the lowest when it's starting to grow."

No problem here. If weeds pop up, you spray them - simple. The reason why you want to scalp is to get rid of the thatch. I've done this many times with great results. Yes, your lawn is going to look like the middle of a Arizona dessert for couple of months, but the grass will make a full recovery with good rainfall and fertilizer.

It's very difficult to thatch rake a St. Augustine lawn because of the above grown runners, so just about every other option has temporary consequenses. It's really no big deal, the grass will grow back, trust me, I know. You really can't kill St. Augustine grass in Florida.

Whatever you say. Zoysia grass was mowed at 2.25 inches. You have no clue what you're talking about since you don't even know the study so you just pulled whatever out of your ass.

St augustine was mowed at 2.25 inches. Same with bermuda and rest of other grass... Again, you just ASS-umed you knew what were talking about...

What's with the aggression? This is a forum where people share their point of view, some agree, some disagree. Your behavior is simply not conducive to this type of forum. I suggest you change your tone and refrain yourself from using that kind of language. And if you can't, then please find another forum.

You do not impress anybody with your negative comments.

Regards,

Auteck

If your thatchy area dries out faster than the rest, I'm taking that as proof you don't have any roots underground. For some reason the soil is not getting any moisture. Is it possible you have a different kind of soil in that area? You might consider running an aerator over that area (did I just say that out loud???). I would run it heavily to ensure the water (and roots) have a place to go. Leave the cores right there within the thatchy area. (Seriously, was that ME suggesting an aerator??? In Florida???)

As a last resort I would run a power rake to physically slice the runners, roots, and whatever is in there. This will leave your turf pretty well ruined right there. I would wait until spring when the grass is leaping out of the ground.

auteck: you were asking for trouble when you said that Floratam was as ugly as crabgrass. Suck it up. I was willing to ignore it because your other suggestions were way out of the ordinary.

San Antonio Water System (SAWS)
Texas A &M and Turf Producers of Texas
On Drought Tolerance & Drought Resistance

Here is a link that might be useful: Drought study

Completly irrelevant to what we are suppose to be discussing. The thread originator asked about how to de-thatch floratam, not if floratam has better drought torelance. Besided, it's not a topic I normally discuss since I have no interest in it whatsoever. If my lawn needs water, then I water. I don't go shopping around for a grass with the best drought tolerance. If I wanted that, I'd probably have Buffalo grass which looks 10 times better than floratam anyway.

skoot cat, I tend to agree that there is an area in the backyard where the grass finds it difficult to set roots. I would try to find out why. I'd use a post hole shovel to see what is under the surface. Treating that problem, if there is one, is the long term and 'permanent' solution. Whether you aerate, dethatch, scalp or verticut is your choice. I'd verticut because one can adjust the depth to cut only as deep as one wants to. Indeed, a relative of mine used a machete with great dexterity to get rid of unwanted runners. Please do not try that without prior instruction and training.

Buy a few thousand earthworms its the cheapest and most efficient organic method. Make sure to release them at night. I am very surprised no one has mentioned that to you.

Funny that you suggested earthworms. First year, I had no earthworms to speak of. I bought some earthworms and put some in various spots. Next thing I know, I have earthworms everywhere. Remember, this area was completely razed over. Almost completely bare ground with rocks everywhere when I bought this lot...

If you have a riding mower you can tow around one of the spike areators a few time which does a number cutting up those runners and reducing thatch. They can be pretty cheap & a lot easier on your body.

First post by auto guy I looked to see if he was in kentucky or somewhere. Certainly not from our area.