My thermo pond de-icer seems to be dead. Advice please!

17 years ago

Well, its been very cold here and it looks like its no longer de-icing. Atleast a foot of ice, but I saw a fish moving down there, so its not over yet. Should I order another 100 watt (?) deicer and lay it on top of the ice?Will it be able to melt through? I don't know how much time ive got before my precious fish are goners! Thanks.

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Comments (22)

ponding_mn
17 years ago
Hi can you try a styroforam box on pcv frame?. how about a styrofoam box with in a styrofoam box...both inverted....just wonder....
abillus
Original Author
17 years ago
What do you mean, what would a box do? This is a pond, I'm looking for a way to thaw the ice, why a box?
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Are any of you deicing the entire pond, or just a hole?
Q
Comments (13)
Transferred from. RE: got stock tank heater, help Posted by drh1 z4 VT (My Page) on Wed, Feb 21, 07 at 19:52 Air Exchange In Your Pond 101 Judging by several of the comments there is a bit of confusion on what is occurring with gas exchange into/out of your pond. I apologize for the length of this - feel free to not bother to read it (except for Rule #1). Rule # 1: If you have a pond and youve been doing something that works for you and youÂre happy with it....forget everything else and stick with it. Do not read any further. All other Rules: The following are "things" that influence the RATE at which a gas will go into or out of solution: a.) Water temperature - the colder the water the more of a gas can be held in solution... and therefore the higher the saturation concentration (commonly referred to as HenryÂs Law and is also dependent on the concentration of the gas in the atmosphere as well as the temperature); the colder temperatures will decrease .... somewhat.... the RATE at which a gas will diffuse through the water and into the air or from the air into the water. b.) Turbulence and mixing. The RATE at which a gas moves into or out of the water is controlled, in general, by a very thin film of water molecules right at the surface of the water (commonly referred to as FickÂs Single Film Model Â as one example). The thicker this film the slower the RATE at which the gas can go into or out of solution. The more mixing or turbulence you provide the thinner the film. Therefore, if we arenÂt getting enough gas (oxygen, for example) into the pond we mix it, let it cascade down a waterfall, use a bubbler.. all of which cause the water to mix and "refresh" the surface and reducing that limiting liquid film thickness. The same applies to getting gases out of solution. c.) Surface area. Often people assume that this is the only variable or parameter that influences gas going into or coming out of solution. While it is a very significant factor it is not the only thing that is relevant. Obviously more surface area is better but there is a point of diminishing returns when there is so much surface area that there is little significant increase in the RATE of gas transport. When we use a stock tank heater or a pond heater the surface area is obviously the amount of clear water surface that we see. However, when using a bubbler the surface area is NOT the size of the hole from which the gas is exiting but rather the TOTAL surface area of each and every bubble that is produced under water. So if your bubbler is putting out 4 liters of air per minute, with an average bubble diameter of say an 1/8 inch you will be producing a little over 80 square feet of surface area each minute. The finer the bubble, the more the surface area. This is why bubblers are much more effective in promoting gas exchange than something that opens up a 2 foot or 3 foot hole in your ice (~9 - 27 square feet). So what size hole should one have? There is no specific answer for this nor can there really be one. It depends. If you have "a lot" of fish in your pond then youÂll need more surface area for gas exchange than if you have one comet in your 2000 gallon, lake. Secondly, water temperature also rears its ugly head again. As a general rule of thumb (which means itÂs not accurate at all!!) biological activity doubles for every 10 degree C change in water temperature. So if your pond is at 2 degrees C versus 12 degrees C then the amount of wastes produced and consumed will be significantly lower than for the higher temperature. This means that if you intend to keep your pond a nice, toasty 45F all winter with your pond heater, immersion heater, solar heater, backyard barbecue grill, etc. then youÂre going to need a significantly larger amount of surface area than the person that lets the pond sit close to freezing. The assumption that your fish huddle around your heater holding their fins out for the warmth is a bit too much anthropomorphizing! Being of New England stock and heritage means that my DNA is such that I donÂt like to part with my ÂLincolnsÂ... and I mean the one cent variety. ThatÂs why I use a bubbler here in zone 4. My pond is pretty close to 3000 gallons (as a guesstimate) with a depth of only 3 feet. IÂve had ice as thick as 18" on it (about 2 years ago if memory serves me correctly). Essentially all of my fish survive and appear to be well each spring. Sometimes there are a few less of the smaller comets but I happen to know for a fact that the Koi will munch on them over the winter. All of this with nothing more than a 4.5 watt aquarium air pump! My electric bill never sees the difference. The URL below should give you access to a pdf file that was mentioned by Horton...it describes what I use for a bubbler system. I would not recommend it for small ponds in zone 4. ThereÂs even more that we could discuss but IÂve obviously babbled on long enough. ÂDavid
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pond deicer failed! I am soooo mad!
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Comments (25)
Hi again all, Horton, I couldn't agree with you more, obviously the low wattage is not enough to keep up with my Minnesota winters, even though they say it does. I have not heard back from Dan yet, but it is a holiday. I will let you know what he says if he does get back to me. Will, don't be nervous, you should dive right in, the water is fine, all be it a bit cold right now. LOLOL! Honestly, I may have had a setback with my koi dilemma but I love ponding! It is so peaceful to have the sound of water and the sites of the wonderful wildlife that make my backyard their home every spring/summer. I get dozens of frogs and birds, dragonflies, butterflies and even the occasional snake because of the pond and stream. I get to sit on my deck and watch birds of all types bathe and drink from the stream, and fish play in the falls, dragonflies perch and hunt from bamboo stakes I have placed in the waterlily pots, and every night a serenade of frog song and crickets fill the air. I can grow beautiful waterlilies, flag iris, and this year, with luck, lotus, and dozens of other beautiful waterplants, and hear the sound of the stream and falls as I work or just enjoy the gardens. Some of the boulders are pretty large although they are considered two man boulders, they were a challenge moving. Actually we, my husband and I did all the work ourselves. I have a background in design, and am either too stuborn or cheap to pay someone to do what I know how to do myself. Besides the exercise is good for us! LOLOL! Every spring my husband asks me, "so what backbreaking project do you have for me this year?" and by the time we have finished it we swear, no more, but.... BTW, I sent you a reply to your email. Thank you! Carol, Sorry to hear you have gone through the same thing :( I could, if I had one, and if there was a hole in the ice to get the tube through. As I said we just had another major snowstorm and it is all solid ice again. I know they need air, but it has had the chance to get some air exchange the few times the ice has melted around the edges. We are supposed to finally get a decent warm up this week, with temps hitting near 50 by Friday, that should be enough for a lot of it to melt. You guys are all great, I can't thank you enough for your help and concern. I am glad I have you all to talk to. Thank you!!!! Jodi
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Needed: Serious advice...
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Comments (16)
I have used frontline for years and have fairly good, consistent results, but I do see the occasional flea. Keep in mind that frontline doesn't kill the fleas immediately that get on your dog, but if you see one on there, they are well on their way to dead. My vet told me that I have to spray my yard to really completely control them, but I am just not willing to do that. So far I have no more trouble than seeing the occasional that I am hoping is indeed on its way out. Frontline is not without issues, but I am not willing to have my dogs suffer form the fleas nor have them set up housekeeping in my house, so I live with that risk. I don't spray anything else around here for anything. I was shocked with all the wildlife that showed up when 'installed' the backyard, which was previously one big asphalt pad. Apparently if you plant, they'll come. I would love to have guineas, but that won't work in the city. Not sure I could live with all the noise and such anyway. Angela
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Please help! Heating question for a 150 gallon pond
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Comments (14)
You may have seen this on the forum: no two ponds are alike. Even two identical preforms will differ due to environmental factors and the way they are set up. You should observe the systems of your pond and make adjustments accordingly. I expect my pond to be very different this season since several trees have been removed exposing it more to the wind. Since my pond is 1000 gallons it is much more forgiving than yours will be but I will still need to adjust for the new conditions. I have only run the waterfall all winter for two years of the 9 I've had ponds so I don't have much good data for this winter. I will need to keep a close eye on the water flow to and from the Skippy. My pump is about adequate for the volume of water in my pond, especially once you consider the rise to the Skippy. There are a number of things that reduce the actual GPH such as head (the vertical distance the water is pumped), the filter type and size if you use a pre-filter, obstructions, and friction through the tubing, not to mention the condition and age of the pump and the diameter of the tubing. My tubing is 2 inches. That is why you need to observe what is going on. If your pump is 500 GPH, it should be quite adequate for your pond but that doesn't mean the tubing will remain unfrozen in zone 5 winters. I doubt the volume of water going through 3/4 inch tubing would be enough to keep the tubing ice free. If the pond or tubing is exposed to the wind, or to sub-zero air temps, it is almost certain to freeze. That makes a waterfall impractical for your pond. A bubbler/air-pump would be a good investment. Use a bubbler the same size you would use in an aquarium that holds 150 gallons of water. I use a very large aquarium bubbler with two output ports to make sure there are no dead spots and there is enough oxygen in the water. My fish like to swim through the bubbles, especially when they are chasing each other. There are really too many fish for the pond, so it is important to keep the water well oxygenated. The bubbler stays in the pond all year round. There are bubblers available for outside use but they are expensive. If you keep the air-pump enclosed it will do fine. Avoid excessive tubing length. Until last year, I used a DIY deicer. It is a Rubbermaid tote with the bottom cut out and a 25 watt rough usage light bulb suspended inside, supported on a shelf of Styrofoam with a hole in the middle. One poster suggested placing a net under the bulb in case it breaks. It works very well but doesn't look very pretty so I got a deicer last year that resembles a rock but didn't need to use it since the waterfall was still working. There are other DIY designs that are not so ugly. There are a lot of options. Your main concern, as I see it would be your fish. Since you may have problems to start with, you may want to consider putting the fish in the garage or inside for this winter. It is not fun trying to rescue your fish in sub-zero temps with a blizzard approaching. A large, new garbage can with a small pump and filter works just fine for fish around 6 inches. Lots of ponders here take their fishies in for the winter.
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horton
17 years ago
I believe what the poster, "Ponding mn",is suggesting to you, is to place a styrofoam box [cooler] over the Thermopond de-icer to help insulate it and concentrate the heat from the de-icer into the ice.

I doubt very much if a Thermopond de-icer will melt through a foot of ice, as long as these temperatures stay as low as they are. There does not seem to be enough output of heat from them, judging by all the reports of failures, here on this forum.
On another thread on this same subject, one poster reports that their de-icer works better in a shallow area of water, in keeping a hole open.

I would not panic yet, if your pond was reasonably clean, i.e. not full of rotting leaves etc, and not holding a large fish load, then it could be okay.
You don't say how deep your pond is?
I have had fish survive in a two feet deep pond that was frozen down to about six inches of water.

Whatever you do, don't start hammering to break the ice, that could be detrimental to your fishes lives.Shock waves from the hammering can kill them or damage their hearing.

As for trying to open the vent hole up in the ice, you could try pouring boiling water around the de-icer , but a foot of ice will not melt too easily without h--- of a lot of hot water being pour onto it.
"Horton"
catfishsam
17 years ago
abillus, throw that thermo pond de-icer away and buy a stock tank heater. That thermo pond de-icer is not going to do the job for you.

Stock tank heaters are less than $20 and can be bought at local farm or ranch stores. They can also be bought on line.

You don't have to leave them on all the time if you are worried about electric costs. I leave mine in the pond and turn it on every couple of days and let it melt a large hole in the ice.

Here is my stock tank heater in my pond.
sheepco
17 years ago
abillus, if you go with a tank heater be sure it doesn't come in contact with your liner.
abillus
Original Author
17 years ago
Ok, thanks. It could be that the deicer is just overwhelmed but I really think its just broken. Which is reason enough to never buy another one, I had heard the are unreliable, and it is obviously true. The question is where is the nearest: "local farm or ranch store". I am 40 miles from NYC so no farm stores I know of around here.

But too all, thanks!
catfishsam
17 years ago
Just type in stock tank heaters. There are lots of places on line to buy them.

Also you might want to check your local pet stores. They might have stock tank heaters?
abillus
Original Author
17 years ago
I wanna try to get one asap. So I'll go check my pet stores. Worth a quick shot. I know that petsmart wont have any since they don't online.
horton
17 years ago
abilis, try the link below for one on line source , there are also many more on Google.

Farm Innovators have improved their de-icers greatly.
I would advise you to go to Farm Innovators Inc. site and read their FAQ about de-icers.

The problem with the Thermopond and other low wattage de-icers is, they are asked to do too much under adverse conditions.

Shielding the de-icer, no matter what size of wattage, from the cold wind, will give it a better chance of doing it's job.

Dropping a de-icer into the pond and letting float to the deepest area, where the cold icy wind will disperse the heat away from the pond or it is covered with snow, is doomed for failure.

Also having a high wattage [1250watts or 1500 watts] de-icer plugged into a timer,set to come on once a day for a couple of hours, will save on the cost of electricity.

Either buy an element guard for the de-icer or secure it so as it will not touch the liner. If it contacts the liner it will burn a hole through it no trouble at all.
"Horton"

Here is a link that might be useful: De-icers
kalevi
17 years ago
I'm in USDA zone 4 and it gets really cold. My first thermopond heater died because it was not covered. At first it worked very well. Then we had snow and it was still OK. Then we had a melt and then snow and sudden freeze and it trapped the de-icer under a few inches of frozen wet snow. By the time I was able to get it out by pouring hot water on it, it no longer worked. I guess the pressure from the ice hurt it.

I have now gone 3 winters with the replacement one working well. I made a small frame from ABS tubing that I cover with 2mil thick construction plastic film which I put over the unit once I know the ice will hold it.
vaderbanger
17 years ago
im in the same boat if you see my post down below
last season i used the thermo de-icer and it failed
this year i bought a laguna de-icer and that just died last week.
im going to look into stock heaters as well
koijoyii
17 years ago
Well let me join the Thermopond de-icer failure club. As I posted in an earlier thread mine had also died. Taking Catfishsam's advice I planned on heading out to Tractor Supply Company to buy a stock tank heater. Just to be sure I checked the Thermopond deicer once again before heading out, only to discover that when the seal broke it tripped my GFCI which also turned off my pump. I unplugged the stupid thing, reset the GFCI and plugged my pump back in. Placed my second Thermopond deicer on the ice above the pump Thursday evening. Headed to TSC as soon as I got off work on Friday. After getting lost in Medina for 1/2 hour I finally found TSC and purchased a stock tank heater as well as a big galvanized feeding pan to float in in (per Catfishsam's advice, my cookie tin was too small). Got home around 6:00 p.m. had just enough time before dark to fill the pan, throw in on the ice, and float the heater. Dragged a couple pails of water out to the pond with the heater and the pan. Only to discover the Thermopond deicer had already beat me to the job. There was a hole in the ice with water bubbling under it. Oh, joy. The deicer hasn't melted a big hole, but it's a hole nonetheless. I have the stock tank heater for backup now in the event I need it.

P.S. Catfishsam - Was excited to set everything up (think it's called cabin fever), and my bubble was burst when I got home to discover the Thermopond deicer had worked :( But forecast calls for a high on Thursday of 9Â° so maybe.......................hehehehehehe!

Jenny
abillus
Original Author
17 years ago
I bought the farm innovators floating deicer, on Horton's advice. Thanks for that link also Horton, good site. This one seems as powerful as a stock tank heater, but is supposed to be safe for plastic feeding tubs (so liners too I would think). It is 1250 watts so it should work. I'll cover it with a big plastic tub to help it out and keep the snow off it. It has to get through atleast a foot of ice so hopefully it can do it. Let hope it arrives soon!

Here is a link that might be useful: 1250 watt de-icer
catfishsam
17 years ago
abillus, it looks like it should work fine.

A foot of ice is a lot, but I went though 5 or 6 inches of ice with my stock tank heater so it should do the job.

Let us know if you like it and it does the job for you.
horton
17 years ago
Doing as Catfishsam suggests will work, but really there is no reason not to just place the float type stock-tank de-icer right on top of the ice.
As long as the temperature around the de-icer is 35Â°F or below, the built in thermostat clicks on and the heating element will heat up. At approximately 42Â°F the thermostat clicks off and the de-icer's element no longer heats up.
The de-icer does not have to be in water to operate, as it works on temperature change and has no way of knowing whether it is in water or not.
I have sat the same type of de-icer on top of ice to melt it many times without harming the de-icer in any way.

If you are in doubt check the FAQ at the Farm Innovators Inc, site. They manufacture the de-icers.
"Horton"

P.S. abillus I hope it works out for you and it should. It will take a bit of time to go though that thickness of ice, so be patient. lol
After you get the vent hole open I would suggest you use a timer to cut down on the power use.
Only a small hole in the ice is necessary to allow for gasses to vent out of the pond.
Remember don't let the element touch the liner as it could burn it.
Take care.
catfishsam
17 years ago
Horton, do you have a link to the FAQ at the Farm Innovators Inc so I can read what they have to say?

It would be easier if the stock tank heater could just be set on top of the ice and let it melt its way down into the ice.
horton
17 years ago
Certainly Sam, the link is below, when you link to their site go to the FAQ page for all kinds of information on their de-icers.

Now you will not see there where they tell you directly, that you can set the de-icer onto the ice. But it does tell you how the de-icer operates and it is a simple jump to realizing that using the de-icer in that way will not harm it.
The element in the de-icer is just the same construction as the element on an electric stove, only a different shape, and it does not require to be submerged into water.
Enjoy the read.
"Horton"

Here is a link that might be useful: Farm Innovators Inc.
catfishsam
17 years ago
Horton, you may be right about putting it on ice and not ruining the stock tank heater's coils?

However, I don't think I am going to take a chance on ruining my stock tank heater.

Stock tank heaters are designed to operate in water, not outside of water like an electric stove.

However, I would be interested in hearing anyone's experiences with following your advice and if it ruined their stock tank heater.
abillus
Original Author
17 years ago
Ok my new 1250 watt deicer camed yesterday. And wow did it ever work. It went in around 7 pm last night, and 7 am this morning, it hade made a very large opening, maybe 7-8 inches deep and atleast 1 foot wide. So hopefully by the time I get home it will have reached the little pocket my fish living (hopefully!!) in. I so hope to see fish tonight. Just getting my pond with 8 inches of rock solid icey snow was a job last night. Its like Siberia back there. Lets hope!!!

PS: And yes I just left it sitting on the ice, no water bucket. I also was forced to use an extension cord since my power source is 8-9 feet from pond and this has a 6 ft cord, with metal coil over the cord to keep cows from chewing it. But as long as it works, looks to built like tank compared to thermopond device.
sleeplessinftwayne
17 years ago
Horton, several years ago I complained on this forum that my ST heater was not working and you suggested it had the thermal switch turned off. I think you said to put it in the freezer to reactivate it. It worked. I can't remember the details though. Could you refresh my memory?
An interesting side comment, Now that the home made deicer has created a hole, the store bought one is working and the water temperature has dropped from 38.8 degrees down to 35.4. Any suggestions why? Sandy
horton
17 years ago
Abillus, you're off and running, it will be soup time before you know it! LOL

Sandy,To carry out a test on a floating de-icer, placing the de-icer in the freezer for about 30 minutes will cause the thermostat to click on.
Farm Innovators Inc, de-icers turn on at 35Â°F where the Allied Precision Industries de-icer is set around 40Â°F.
After thirty minutes remove the de-icer from the freezer and plug it in.
It should heat up for around 30 seconds and the thermostat will shut it off again, for the F I Inc de-icers, because the air around it is at room temperature.
The API type of de-icer will turn on again, if left for thirty minutes and the temperature is 40Â°F or lower.

The F I Inc type of de-icer will also come back on at 35Â°F or lower.
These de-icers I mention are the 1000/1250/1500 wattage type but the lower wattage types, Thermo-pond and Laguna 200/300 watts etc, can be tested the same way.
Hope this helps.
"Horton"
abillus
Original Author
17 years ago
Just thought I'd let everyone know that all my fish seem to have survived. And infact they all look quite large. The 4- 3 year olds goldfish were my biggest worry. They look huge! Anyway thanks for all your help. Soon I can get my waterfall going, clean it up a little and watch all my plants start growing!

To all those with thermopond heaters. Be ready for it to break. Get yourself a stock tank heater, and a timer.

My thermo pond de-icer seems to be dead. Advice please!

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