Just wanted to say.... OH you lucky dawg!!! You really needed and DESERVED those plants!! Absolutely!

I hope you get lots of replys, interesting stuff!

Now .....where did I put your DW's email address...?.hmm..

Congrats!!
Pat...

Thanks Pat, you can call her at 310-495-5412. (Its a gag, go ahead and make the call).

One more question for our upside down friends, one of the plants has AOC-ANOS after it. What does the ANOS mean?

Nick

hello, Nick, I more than agree - you absolutely deserve and need those new additions. remember, orchids will not cause cancer or obesity or all those other bad things. also, one only need one pair of shoes, one pair of pants and one shirt - more than that, it is being vain. Also, having lots of beautiful plants around is spiritually uplifting!! ( that's what I tell my family) so, enjoy.
sue
p.s. i also read somewhere that dends clear the air..

Hi Sue

Where in Canada do you live, I grew up in Calgary and in the late 90's fed my late mother a steady supply of orchids which filled her life with joy after my father passed away.

In relation to D speciosum, she could not bloom them because she kept them snuggly warm as the outside temp went down to minus 40. Just like Peonies or Rhodadendrums these plants need to get cold in the fall and winter to bloom in the spring. I converted an unused bathroom in her basement into a 'Cold Room' where she put her AU dendrobiums and let them go down to freezing. Then they bloomed.

Nick

LOL....I Love that Nick!! That number could prove very useful!!

My MIL was not amused however - hmm.

Good luck with your new plants!!

Nick,
QOS = Queensland Orchid Society
OSNSW = Orchid Society of NSW and so on.
Each state has panels governed by the AOC Australian Orchid Council that will ratify? right word so if you get an award AM-QOC you can add AOC as well.

ANOS is a different body that only is concerned with Australian Native orchids.

Groan, no-one calls them shrimps here.
They are prawns. Good to see that George W is stimulating the economy. The sharemarket here will probably crash on Monday after the mortgage crisis over there came to light late Friday here.

Just wondering how big those plants are. Some have to be pretty big to flower.
I'm still waiting after about 10 years for some to flower after they were deflasked.

But, as long as you are fairly young they will be stunning when you see the blooms. Good flower shapes and terrific floral arrangement on the spike.

Sorry, that not an expert on Den. speciosum

The Day Light Moon has 4 spikes, 16 canes. Windermere 5 adult canes, Charlie and Southern Cross 9 or 10 canes each. The only one I will have to wait for is the Robyn. All except for Robyn have been or will be divided by two of us. Windermere is not ready yet but eventually we will share that one too. I personally have a 39 cane (7 new ones this year) grandiflorum which blooms its head off every spring. I actally have one of each of the 6 varieties I am used to, they have more now, but always wanted the famous AU awarded ones, especially Day Light Moon. The big grandiflorum is mounted on a root stump and every year its getting bigger and heavier as I'm getting older and weaker. It usually wins best Dendrobium at our spring show if the timing is right. One of these years the two lines will cross and I won't be able to lift that sucker anymore.

Thanks for the input Arthur, it was most helpful.

Nick

hello, Nick, I am in the toronto area. the dends i have are small - i am not familiar with d. speciosums - maybe you will post a picture - i googled for some photos but none came up. i would to be able to grow some big specimens here but space is an issue - no greenhouse & no land to put one in. when your mother had them, where did she grow them, besides wintering in the basement bathroom?
sue

Hi Sue,
My ordinary clone of Den. speciosum is shown in an orchid society display. Space and lack of light in winter, together with the cooling down need is a problem in some places.

{{gwi:140918}}

Hi Sue

I live in Southern California, grew up in Calgary. After my father died my mother elected to stay in the house where she spent a good portion of her life. Half of her basement was converted to orchid growing, I had a 1,000 watt HID cruising up and down on a rail, humidifyer, RO unit, fertilization mixing unit etc set up for her, I flew up every 6 to 8 weeks to keep her company and monitor this set-up. All on timers, more or less automatic. In the back yard we built a lath house. She had windowsill plants in the kitchen, bedroom and living room, the rest in the main growing area below plus the 'Cold Room' for AU Dends and Cymbidiums. In the summer she moved most of the things to the backyard where they stayed until it got too cold.

Fairly labor intensive for an old lady but it kept her busy, which is what she needed. When she died on short notice she was growing about 750 plants. I went to K-Mart and bought 4 large cardboard chest like suitcases into which we stuffed all the bare-rooted plants and flew them to LA. Kovachii was not yet discovered and nobody seemed to care much then.

D speciosum is one of the premier orchids in the world but it needs a lot of space. My climate here is identical to where they come from so they do well for me, not because I'm a genius but becuase they feel right at home. They can take full sun so you would have to provide them with lots of light, space and a cooling period without freezing. A fairly tall order for Toronto. The picture Arthur posted is probably a grandiflorum, hillii or maybe a curvicauli all of which get big. If you get a D speciosum var speciosum, var capricornum or var pedunculatum (often sold under the erroneus name 'compactum'), then space is not a problem as these varieties get not much bigger than a big cymbidium.

A very rewarding plant, if you choose to get one you have to be prepared to spend some dinero unless you are willing to wait 10 years for a bloom. If at a show they are just labeled D speciosum, pass, as you don't know which one it is and a Grandi or Hillii can get gigantic. In Santa Barbara in the year 2000 a multi thousand pound Hillii won 'Best of Show', they needed a fork lift to get it in place. A good near blooming size plant will cost you $150 to $200 but truly worth it. I have seen small seedlings on eBay offered for $10 to $20 with the statement they would bloom in 2 years! Try 10 years instead. The seedling I bought has a 5" cane, a 4" cane and 4 smaller ones, I guess not really a seedling, rather a young plant. Its at least 5 years old and probably will bloom in 4 to 5 years.

Good luck, Nick

hello, arthurm, thanks for posting the photo - i have seem that at a show. it is spectacular.
thanks, Nick, for the info. the set up in your mother's house must have been quite something and I applaud you for having been so attentive. I think I am going to have to just enjoy them at shows. but then, again, if they grow like standard cymbidiums, i may have a chance since so far the only cymbidium which flowers for me every year is a standard cymbidium.
sue

Littlem 2007,
If space is at a premium I'd favour var capricornum or var pedunculatum over var speciosum. A reasonably sized var speciosum will still demand a lot of space especially when in flower.

Not all that long ago, what are considered varieties of speciosum now were listed as separate species. You will occasionally find an older plant tagged, for example, Den. hillii or Den. capricornum.

I believe it was Clements' group that raised (Clemesha's???) six speciosum varieties to species status. The same group has since moved speciosum into the genus Thelychiton and further split speciosum into 11 species. Kew currently only accepts 1 species. The consensus between the Australian herbaria is to recognise 6 species in the speciosum (speciosus) group within the genus Thelychiton. If you don't like Clemesha's or any of Clements' takes on naming speciosum, Adams has proposed a single species of speciosum (as Dendrobium) with 9 varieties. Take you pick.

I have read Arthur's blogs about Kingianum for years. Bottom line on Kingis is that there is a range of colors and growth patterns with massive cross breeding. I believe they are still all called Kingianums wether they are 4" or 12" tall, white or red and anything in between.

D speciosum is somewhat similar with the varieties thriving in certain areas and some crossbreeding occuring. I believe it is these natural hybrids that lead the taxonomists to create new species. I don't mean to sell them short, I know a massive amount of evaluation goes into it, but how far can you differentiate when the subjects have no morals and crossbreed. My large grandiflorum has 24" canes with 16" leaves to boot, its a card bearing Grandi. The canes however have a sharp angle which is not truly characteristic of grandiflorum. It was been suggested by some famous AU expert, who shall remail unamed, when he visited California and viewed the plant, that it may have a touch of var pedunculatum in it. This would explain the angular canes.

One could make it into a new species if this is a naturaly occuring hybrid with many similar plants occuring in the wild. DNA ananlysis has become cheap enough that I really think its time to put it to GENERAl use. It has been used in isolated cases but a broad analysis of groups like Kingi or Speciosum would settle the arguments about how many species co-exist.

Like a good Republican (which I am not) I am against any change. I cut my teeth on 6 varietes of D speciosum and they will have to force additional varieties or additional species INTO my cold clenched fists.

Still nobody has commented on my original query about 'Charlie', 'Southern Cross' or 'Robyn', has any of you seen these plants in bloom?

Nick

Spoke to the local native orchid guru and he only knew about Den. speciosum var curvicaule 'Day Light Moon' FCC/AOC. He said "it deserves the description wow"

The one pictured in the post above was grown in a plastic bucket with drainage holes cut in the bottom. It is (i think) the variety speciosum. Peak blooming that year with 14 spikes.

Got out the old trusty rusty saw and cut the plant in half. Didn't bother with cinnamon or any of that namby pamby stuff and repotted. Want to be able to take the plant to the local orchid society meetings and shows without hiring a truck.

The plant is a family heirloom grown by my late father in law and passed to me via my son. Probably wild collected more than 50 years ago.

There is another thread hereabouts about Den. Nathan. If you look at the hybrid register in detail, you will find that D. speciosum has been used quite a few times in its production. But the variety used is not recorded.

Do not know what will happen with the change of varieties into species by the Jones and Clements. I think it is being ignored by the orchid growing community at the moment.

thanks, everyone, I have enjoyed learning about a "new" orchid. i will be on the lookout at the sales tables and shows, not that i will get one but now i am curious about seeing one "in person", so to speak - I can't recall anyone offering anything so big here.
sue

They don't get offered that big because the price would be too high. They cut them up and sell the pieces. 3 years ago, the Grandi I described earlier was in full bloom with 14 spikes, won 'Best Dendrobium of Show' at our modest little spring show and had 14 fewer canes than today. Someone offered me $1,000 which I declined in a nanosecond. If I wanted to sell it today however, I would be hard pressed to find someone with the ready cash, I'd be better off selling $100 pieces.

I harp at our society sessions and at lectures I sometimes give at our shows about taking the plunge and paying way too much for what seems like a young plant with 3 to 5 canes. 4 to 6 years from, you'll be glad you did when you look at the spectacular display these guys put on. At every major show there are a few for sale, seemingly way overpriced in relation to what you pay for beautiful Cattleya types etc. If you take the plunge you'll probably wait a few years for first bloom. You can admire them at the spring shows only.

Off the 'small' varieties I have a v capricornum with 18 to 20 fat canes which has yet to bloom and a v pedunculatum of equal size which finally bloomed last year. I heard that one of the two has a reputation for being a slow starter. Does someone know which one it is so Sue can be forewarned in case she jumps into the deep end. I sense she is tottering and needs just a little nudge.

If and when you are ready contact 'Down Under Native Orchids' and order up exactly the type and size you want. He may go to a show in Canada all though I don't think so. I could pick it up for you in Santa Barbara next spring and mail it to you at a point of your choosing this side of the border. Check on the import requirements, I believe you can bring a bare-root house plant in without difficulty. I see Canadians in Santa Barbara every July who combine a summer vacation with orchid buying, who seem to have no problem bringing them over. You could always hide it in your bra.

As you can tell by now its my favorite plant. One Aussie enthusiast wrote once that if they hybridize orchids for another 50 years, they may come up with something as beautiful and grand as a well grown D speciosum. Maybe a little exageraton there, but a point well taken. If you get one, it will be with you for the rest of your life or until you need to get rid of it because of size.

My family of descendants is made up of 6 children, 5 and 8/9th grandchildren at last count, the D spec v grandiflorum , a 130 lbs Sulcata tortoise named 'Big Bob' and a mutt named 'Whiskey'. None are for sale.

Nick

hello, Nick, you are very kind with your offer and suggestions. I will definitely let you all know if i decide to get one. in the meantime, I will save some of the posts in this thread for future reference. does any of your grandchildren ride "Big Bob"? thanks.
sue

>Spoke to the local native orchid guru and he only knew about >Den. speciosum var curvicaule 'Day Light Moon' FCC/AOC. He >said "it deserves the description wow"

D speciosum var speciosum 'Windermere' is very well known clone that has been used quite extensively in breeding, including as one of the speciosum parents in the original Avrils Gold. As for the other three, outside of DUNO's listings the only other info I can find is on Easy Orchids' website listing Robyn as a gold var grandiflorum from Kalpowar, Qld.

As for the validity of the speciosum splits, I hardly think anyones going to get a knock on the door from David Jones if you keep Clemesha's naming system. For the most part it's splitting molecular and morphological hairs. However, looking at both Clements and Adams published phylogenetic data I can understand a possible basis for splitting var pedunculatum and parts if not all of var curvicaule, where it appears there may be a closer relationship between pedunculatum and certain curvicaule populations and kingianum compared to the other speciosums. Dendrobium speciosum var kingianum, anybody. :)

Hello to all you people in North America. It's interesting to read all your comments on the mighty "speciosum". Regards them being "species" or varieties. Those lumping and those splitting will never back down, and ultimately it doesn't matter because there is no right or wrong. Common usage will dictate the result as will the next major botanical work by a future botanist (not Jones and not Adams). Any one of you people could publish a paper and rename speciosum after yourself or Donald Duck. So long as you follow the International code of Botanical Nomenclature you can do it legally whether your a botanist or septic tank cleaner. History will slowly judge your stance and stick with it or change it.
As a guy who has spent his life chasing speciosum all over this country I've no doubts that the best way to deal with the situation is to call them "VARIETIES". Full Stop. We must all look at the similarities and not dwell on the smaller differences in specisoum. A Zulu warrior is very different to a Chinese woman but all are Homo sapiens. Right???????

The best and biggest flowers, and the longest racemes will always be found on plants that have been sunburnt and had their new growths develop in the same. Only then will the maximum number of flowering eyes form between the leaves and these demand strong light to initiate the flower spike. Cold will not hurt them down to minus 6 C. So long as actual frost and snow does not get them. You may be surprised to learn that growers in the Aust tropics don't bother with speciosum because it doesn't get cold enough to differentiate the seasons and so they can't flower it. In northern aust speciosum usually only grows at altitude and some distance inland where conditions are much colder. Take them to the coast and they grow well but rarely flower. I wish I knew how to post a pic in this forum so I could show you a couple of mindblowing cliffs covered in flowering speciosum. Damn!