I hate to burst your bubble, but a friend of mine in Mississippi... that's the only place she could buy her organics for awhile. :D Blew my mind. They don't have it here in the heart of organic territory.... wonder why? I was pretty sure that corporations figger that poor people aren't interested in organic. Or something.

I thought I heard recently that wal-mart is already the biggest retailer of 'organic' products. I hope that's wrong, but with their vast infrastructure, they can be the number one seller of most anything they choose. I've also heard that the produce in wal-hell is fairly local, and better than in nearby grocery stores - where it isn't local.

Makes it tough for us who support "buy local" above all else, doesn't it?

Well, do you have farmer's markets? maybe you can buy at those during the summer and Walhell during the winter? If it's during the winter, I doubt it's local... probably coming from my area... California.

I was using "us" generically. Where I live, personally, there is no wal-mart within driving distance and never will be. For that I give thanks and count my blessings. I grow most of my fresh food, and get the rest locally, or do without. With occasional exceptions in late winter.

The only reason any corporation would sell any product is because they can make some money doing that. The directors of Wal-Mart have discovered a market in organically grown food, a large and growing market, and are moving in to capitalize on that.

pnbrown: It certainly wouldn't surprise me if they became the largest retailer of organics as soon as they jumped into it--and when I say "jumped", I don't mean to imply that this was a spur-of-the-moment decision. As kimmsr rightfully points out, it's extremely difficult for a grocery chain (which Wal-Mart has become, throughout the South) to ignore a market that has been growing 20-30% for the past 15 years. The writing was on the wall--and of course Wal-Mart was keenly aware of it for years, and, no doubt has planned their entry into the market for some time.
As far as their buying organics locally, I have no evidence of that, one way or the other...but I will look into it. Of course, it makes the most sense to buy locally (particularly on an extremely large scale)--gasoline and transportation costs being what they are. Wal-Mart can dictate price in a local market, where little transportation costs are involved. I don't know if there are enough large growing entities in place in the south to furnish Wal-Mart today--but you can bet there soon will be. (I doubt Wal-Mart is buying a few here, and a few there, locally.) Watch for mega-organic concerns (California-style) to locate in the South almost immediately, and for growers already in place (who have the financial ability) to quickly expand. I keep mentioning the South, because I know enough about that particular area to know that--from Virginia, southward, locals GROCERY-SHOP at Wal-Mart, and have been doing it for years. It's a phenomenon in the South that has forced LARGE grocery chains completely out of the market. Winn-Dixie, is a case in point. I read an article (I believe in The Wall street Journal) a year ago, about the demise of Winn-Dixie, attributed directly to Wal-Mart's entry into the grocery business in the South. A google search of this would furnish all the details, no doubt, but the point was made that in 1998, stock held by the family (original founders of Winn-Dixie, I believe) who had controling interest, was worth 800 million dollars. In 2005, that stock was worth 80 million dollars.
So, my original point was that for those conventional and IPM farmers (poison slingers) who either cannot afford to buy or lease NEW land, and/or cannot wait three years 'til the chemicals clear from their own land (so they can be certified organic), Santa Claus is dead (in regards to providing organics to Wal-Mart). To those concerns with adequate financial support, Santa Claus is alive and well--and he'll soon be moving from the North Pole to the South. He'll no doubt be living in the Atlanta area, and he'll be buying his toys from large concerns already in place in Texas, to the west, and Florida, to the east; and his new residence will cause the expansion and location of large organic farms throughout the South. Santa Claus needs lots of toys, and he doesn't like to pay shipping costs.

Oh the irony!

American Cotton growers are mad because someone at Walmart was speaking truth about conventional (poison laden, rr/bt gentically modified) cotton. It would be great if WMart encouraged organic cotton growing across the South.

Here is a link that might be useful: oca

Yes, I'm aware of that phenomenon in the southern states. I know from experience that some rural towns in florida have virtually no other retailers.

The limiting factor would seem to be that these are the very areas where shoppers probably care the least about organic, or not. Places where shoppers are more upscale and more concerened about organics seem to be places where wal-mart doesn't compete bigtime in the grocery trade (most likely because such shoppers tend not to like wal-mart). Whole Foods and Trader Joe's and such thrive instead. Apparently wal-mart has identified a retail sweet-spot in the organic market, but I'm not sure how, or where.

I have my doubts about wal-hell being able to bully organic farmers in general. Such people are usually motivated by ideology, not money. Everyone knows most farmers make little, and organic farming is a gauranteed work-for-free program. Where's the margin for them to squeeze?

You bring up some very legitmate points, and, believe me, there are legitimate answers for them all. The fact that the South is one of the "very areas where the shoppers care the least about organics" is a true statement; I spent 20 years trying to introduce organics to an area in the South where they had no idea what the word "organic" meant, and some were actually AFRAID of the word, because it was strange to them. And, believe it or not, this is the very area where Wal-Mart may perform somewhat of an actual service to organics--at least, by INTRODUCING these people to the concept. (I used to tell them "It's vegetables like your grandfather used to grow, without chemical fertilizer or pesticides; unfortunately, many don't remember those days.) These are also the rural areas where FARMERS reside, many (specifically, Tobacco farmers whose tobacco "pounds" (subsidies) recently have been bought out and price support no longer exists for the crop) direly in need of some new avenue of farm revenue to keep their (family) farms intact, and support their families. By forming co-ops where individual harvests are combined with others (amassed), thereby creating substantial quantities to interest large buyers, or selling to distributor who do virtually the same thing (and take a percentage for doing it), these small farmers MAY have a new source of revenue opened to them. Wal-Mart did very well in these same rural areas convincing farm families that "one stop shopping" saved time and (fuel) money, and they created "Super" Wal-Marts, where food and non-food commodities have been combined and sold, for years. Also, many areas of the South are not quite as rural as they once were, since the onset of the computer age. The Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, area--once as rural as you'd ever find, has now become an Eastern Silicon-Valley, of sorts. Many enlightened people live in very rural areas these day, quite by choice. And then there are college towns (our somewhat-enlightened youth in action) which exist all over the South (as well as every other section of the country). I find it interesting that about 20 years ago, Wal-Mart created the first "Super" Wal-Mart that I was aware of, in the small town of Farmville, Virginia. A huge affair, half non-food and half food items, in a rural town of about 10,000 people (an estimate, on my part, but easily searched). BUT, two old colleges in the town, Longwood (which used to be all female), and Hampton-Sydney (which used to be all male), now both co-educational (probably since sometime in the 1970's--another estimate). WM open 24 hours; 'round-the-clock grocery (and non-grocery) shopping. What interest could that possibly hold for rural folks in a small town? But, build it and they will come--and they did, from miles away, night and day. Southerners dearly love Wal-Mart, and take the entire family and make an excursion of it. Wal-Mart will, no doubt, introduce many of these folks to the first "organics" they've ever seen in their lives.
"Places where shoppers are more upscale and more concerned about organics seem to be places where Wal-Mart doesn't compete big-time in the grocery trade. Not so, in my area. Wal-Marts in Washington D.C., and its suburbs in Maryland and Virginia, recently began adding food items where there were none two years ago, and it's been an overwhelming success. I can easily see these same food shoppers at WM buying organics--and for all I know, they already are. Most of the large grocery chains in this area buy organics from California mega-farms, even in our growing season. California's been at it longer, and "quantity" is the name of the game. These are the "new" organic growers--not the idealistic ones. Many grow conventional on one side, then, with the allowed buffer, grow "organic" on the other. When I decried that fact on this forum a year, or so ago, there was a grower who posted here that admitted doing the very same; said he didn't want to "put all his eggs in one basket". So, these are the "new" organic growers; if there's an extra buck to me made, they'll give it a try--ideals be dammed. Organic growers used to make compost, and haul aged manure--many small growers still do. But large-quantity growers have no time for such nonsense--they've got thousands (yes, thousands) of acres of a single crop to bring to market, and an army of imported workers to direct, and later, pay. I said years ago that if organic growers had a comparable organic fertilizer to the 5-5-5 and 10-10-10 (NPK) synthetics that conventional growers have, there would be a lot more organic growers. Well, that happened--and there are (and will be) a lot more organic growers--NEW, organic growers using pelletized hen manure adjusted for NPK with organic supplements, and scattered about like they used to scatter synthetic fertilizers; routinely doing "preventive" sprayings of the strongest control in an organic grower's arsenal--1% Rotenone (rarely, if ever, used by idealistic organic growers), like they used to spray synthetic pesticides. And thereby, able to grow huge QUANTITIES of any given item of produce. These are the growers that presently supply large grocery chains, and, no doubt, will supply Wal-Mart. As much as I dislike the idea of "new" organic growing, I certainly prefer it to conventional and IPM (basically the same) agriculture. I, personally, can't tolerate eating synthetic poison and being a guinea pig for GM producers, which both conventional and IPM growing encompass. ANY organics is better than that. And, most any semi-enlightened consumer can differentiate true organic growing from new organic growing from conventional and IPM growing, by reading the label and considering the source; better yet, by doing what people on this forum are at least attempting to do--growing their own, organically.

Understand that no matter how well sales of organic food does in timbuctoo for Wal-Mart if those sales are not there in Savanagh those products will not be in those stores.

I guess the proclivities of shoppers in the urbanesque mid-atlantic differs somewhat from their counterparts in the northeast. My anecdotal observations are that upscale shoppers avoid wal-mart for the most part, and certainly when it comes to food.

I agree, no doubt wal-mart will radically change the face of 'oganic' - something that was already happening. There will be organic for the masses, produced the way you have described; but one hopes there will remain a traditional organic as the hippies know it. Remember Erewhon?

Sadly, even our local organic grower, as idealistic as they come, has succumbed to using the pellitized fertilizer. He doesn't have time to make and spread compost. Since working with him some summers ago I've been wondering in what way, essentially, is his operation better for the land than the IPM guy down the road? For me, it all leads back to the fact that everyone should be more involved in food production. Few people these days would knowingly poison their own food.

Have any of you folks read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan? I highly recommend it for a look at the current state of organic farming from the small sustainable farming operations to the "industrial organic" megafarms. But the book is primarily focused on the importance of knowing where our food comes from.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that Wal-Mart organic most likely means organic foods imported from China where the food can be produced more cheaply even after all the petroleum spent in transportation.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Omnivore's Dilemma

Here's the proof:

{{gwi:155475}}

check out "the nation" magazine food issue 3 weeks ago. also "organics, inc." a great book on this subject. i have a large garden and serve 30 families thru CSA. after 12 years of csa farming while working a second shift job i think the frontier for grower and consumer collaboration is a team of farmers and their families living in a group of mutually supporting enterprises to serve subscribing members that ALL contribute labor to the farm. we are too isolated! making a living directly from the soil and sun in this wacked economy is nearly impossible and those that are doing it cannot rest a single moment. perhaps this was god's plan to keep everything in balance! add a tractor and a plow and everything goes to pot! wal-mart is the ultimate extension off a human pathology based in fear NOT FAITH. the amish are setting an example and thriving but i'd like to hear what people are dreaming about. peace, paul

Apology for way too many words, in last post.
pnbrown: Regarding the organic farmer, "...in what way, essentially, is his way better for the land than the IPM guy down the road." Are you asking why is hen manure better for the land than synthetic poison? Surely, you jest. But, I'm way beyond preaching, or even explaining. Let them that likes to eat poison and GMOs, eat them, I say. I believe the difference between the two to be the difference betweeen night and day. There's nothing wrong with pelletized hen manure or any other organic pelletized NPK; fact in a few ways, it'll no doubt be a plus. Perdue comes to mind, and their humongous operations on the Delmarva Penninsula (Va, Del, Md), that have registered environmental complaints, for years. Noticed, recently, they've gotten into the pellet business (Perduepoop, or something, they call it). Certainly better to pelletize it for growing crops than allow it to grow into mountains along the banks of the Chesapeake Bay and its tributaries. My point was that less-than-idealistic growers, many former or current conventional/IPM growers, now may become organic growers, with the ease that they conduct(ed) their conventional growing; in fact, many presently do it, 600 feet from their conventional operation. Another point, in a nutshell: Sadly, who better to introduce organics in the south, than Wal-Mart? They're there, firmly entrenched, and loved. As I said, it's one-stop shopping. Guys buy their auto necessities, their hunting and fishing licenses, their guns and ammo, fishing rods and reels and lures. Women buy their food and cosmetics, etc., etc., etc. It may be a commercial disaster for an organic retailer to launch stores in rural areas of the South, but WM is there, and can begin slowly and test the market (to respond to kimmsr). If they don't buy organic baby radicchio in Savannah, they'll pull it, and try organic collard greens. At least they'll have exposure to organics, and awareness of the concept.
newtxan: I thoroughly agree with you about WM and the Chinese connection--that's more or less a given, on ANY item that can be obtained cheaper, from ANYWHERE. It's already being done with conventional produce that can stand the time it takes for the boatride-Alliums, come immediately to mind--Garlic, Shallots, and Onions. Notice the price of Chinese garlic in Oriental stores? About a dollar a pound, and a very long shelf life. Compare to $5.00 a pound organic garlic. ('Course the Snow Peas arrive a little wilty.) There IS a current problem with the organic certification process in China, that being, NOBODY BELIEVES THEM. We'll see how that plays out for the future. Another book for my TO READ list--thanks for that, newtxan.
terri: Good one--my post is substantiated; and a right cute picture, too.

A non-'organic' collard green picked today is much more better for my body than an 'organic' one picked a week-and-a-half ago in mexico or china.

Especially when that produce is produced by a local grower, who though not certified organic, is commited to the land. For instance, the local non-organic vegetable grower here has more time and help and so has a large composting operation. The organic grower hasn't. That pellitized stuff imported from some distance doesn't build the soil.

pnbrown: Think what you will. This is an organic gardening forum, and I thought everyone posting here was aware of it. IPM embraces synthetic poison and GMOs-- period--and, therefore, is not relevant on this forum. My own opinion is that IPM is a joke perpetrated by chemical companies, but I certainly don't intend to debate IPM on an organic gardening forum. Perhaps you can petition Gardenweb for an IPM/Organice Debate Forum, for yourself, and others who wish to debate the issue.
swampfarmer: That example you say the Amish are setting, is the way every farmer farmed and every grower grew and every gardener gardened until about 1950, my family, included. Every semi-intelligent person on Earth should have the brains to realize that what we do on this Earth--to the soil, the water, and the air--directly influences the well-being of the Earth and its inhabitants. With all the man-made global catastrophes looming, it doesn't say much for semi-intelligence, does it? It behooves every one of us to purposefully and positively contribute to sustaining the Earth--and how we grow the food we eat, is a major consideration, toward that goal. Hopefully, that is the purpose for forums such as this, and I certainly applaud all organic gardeners (even wannabe organic gardeners) who read and post and share useful information here. There IS healthily grown food available to those who want it; and there are organic markets and there is organically grown food in conventional markets, ONLY because of you, and others like you, who demand(ed) it.
Goodonya, swampfarmer, for contributing in a positive way.

It seems you are an intolerant individual, mojo. I'll debate whatever I please.

Know this: I have never used, in nine years of food production, a poison of any kind. I do not use any motorized equipment in my food production. For some years now I havn't even used manures, just my own assinine contributions.

Nevertheless, I am aware that the larger world is not so simple as 'organic' vs non-'organic'. The greater ill, IMO, is vast scale. Organic, as we know it today, is focused on what is absent (chemicals, organo-phosphates), rather than what is there (common sense, soil building, using on-site or very local inputs, sustainability). In short, the term 'organic' as it is commonly used is far too limiting a concept, and is being perverted to meaningless-ness by such evils as wall-mart.

I shan't play that game. I'll avoid poisons, to be sure as always, and I will cleave to common-sense, as always.

Regarding the organics grown in China thing: I would also be very suspicious. I have been to China, and therefore will not buy any food I know has been grown there. You have never, ever seen such air pollution. 16 of the 20 most polluted cities in the world are in China, and I for one do not want that, in the form of rain or anything else, to come in contact with my food.

finnbiker: On top of that, the organic certification process in China (by the Chinese) has not been believable--it's a matter of record. But I read, recently, that an organic certification delegation has gone there to try and sort things out with the Chinese.
pnbrown: Has nothing to do with my tolerance, or lack of it; the organic forum, itself, specifically states the intent of this forum and what is to be discussed here. I'm trying to figure out why the conventional/IPM goobers who lurk here, do so. Are they paid to do it by chemical companies? Why would anyone try to promote IPM on an organic gardening forum? In contrast to your most recent post, a few posts back, you wonder why organic growing is better for the land than the IPM guy down the road; have you got that sorted out? If not--the IPM guy down the road is using synthetic poison and planting GMO's, and the organic grower isn't.

I dunno if this is appropos to this thread, but I am liking this group.... http://www.slowfood.com/welcome_eng.lasso it's about food, but they are also pro small farmer and pro bio-diversity... I don't know about GMO. Here is the section on small farms http://www.slowfoodfoundation.com/

If you were to read threads and occasionally make comments about 'organics' at vegetable gardening, for instance, would that make you a lurker? I don't think so. It's clear that a preference for lecturing vs. debate doesnt educate anyone. An application of an ideological black-or-white matrix to the real world is impractical and unuseful.

The guy down the road does not grow GM varieties but does use synthetic poisons very sparingly. I don't agree with his use of them, I don't know why he feels like he must do so. If the majority of his customers questioned it, he'd probably change, but most are just thrilled to find good local produce in a place where real estate costs are pushing those of manhattan. However, I think his operation still beats the heck out of importing produce hundreds or thousands of miles from some other truly conventional grower, who doesn't use chems sparingly, nor use compost, nor employ local labor. Those are the kinds of comparisons that exist, realistically, in most parts of the country.

If wal-mart succeeds in dictating organic, and is the sole employer of some organic growers, I'd wager a large sum that the term will be severely perverted and such growers will be doing whatever they have to do (including spraying those chems on the sly) to make a slight buck.

"Organic, as we know it today, is focused on what is absent (chemicals, organo-phosphates), rather than what is there (common sense, soil building, using on-site or very local inputs, sustainability). In short, the term 'organic' as it is commonly used is far too limiting a concept, and is being perverted . . ."

I agree with you, pnbrown! There is so much more to "organic" that is being lost in today's rush (by some)to jump on the organic bandwagon for the sake of a buck. Sustainability and local, fresh produce with vitamins intact are certainly important to me. And soil building is one key element. Produce is not necessarily organic in the true sense just because it's labeled as such. Crowded feedlots and the absence of hormones do not jive with the term, to my way of thinking, yet there is still an "organic" label on the milk. Humane treatment (of humans and animals) also has something to do with defining it IMO.

I have been gardening (very small-scale) for nearly 30 years using no pesticides and little fertilizer other than compost. Still, I would rather buy local produce where I know the food is fresh and from a small, family-owned farm, than to buy some of the organic fare in the local health food venue. I feel that by doing so, I am working on a larger scope, though smaller scale, helping to promote that small farm rather than a conglomerate that calls itself "organic" but may be found lacking if truth be told.

With education and thoughtful discussion, perhaps the small farmers can be convinced to stop using pesticides, but this is done by reaching one person at a time. Sometimes it really doesn't take much convincing when presented in a non-threatening, non-judgemental way. And we each can have an impact on our world, on the future, keeping in mind it is the way we present it that often turns the tide. If I buy local produce at a farmer's market, and have personal interaction with the grower, do you think he/she will be more apt to listen to me the next time when I remark that I prefer my veggies without pesticides? Might I have the opportunity to enter a discussion with that grower?

My own physician was convinced by several visits and the GENTLE presentation of research, something he could relate to, and a few issues of Organic Gardening Magazine (which, is a whole other discussion that I'll not delve into now). After thoughtful consideration of the facts this doctor, who was VERY into "chemicals" for his garden, started thinking about his own toddler and the impact of pesticides and herbicides on the next generation. Guess what happened? He is now gardening organically! It truly becomes a matter of common sense, don't you think? When presented with the facts, if one has an open mind, what else can one do?

Also to note, I rarely venture onto this forum, sometimes read posts, but have found many organic-minded individuals on other forums on GW. Most are "common sense" folks, and will hear you out if treated with the respect we all desire.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry if a bit long. . .
rosebush