I never had any problems with scalping when I had bermuda builder sod and mowed at .5-.625" and cut it 2-3 times a week. Usually twice a week.

quirky, I still stand by my original posts in regard to your comments. The bermuda sod I just purchase is to be used in this small area between the curb and the sidewalk. The area is about 300sf, so sodding was the better option. I'm planning to over seed the 419 with Turf-type PRG in October rather than Sept. I want to see for myself the transition from dormant to active with PR in the mix without atrazine.

Also, this area is always a pain to water because it's independent from the rest of the lawn; so I always have to water by hand and that gets old very quickly after a few times. I'm hoping the 419 can stay green without water longer than the PRG.

Because 419 is a hybrid, I don't have to worry about seeds flying around and invading my bluegrass.

This 419 grass looks awesome, very fine bladed, dark green, and dense. It looks more like PRG than KBG, just beautiful.

I'll post some pictures later.

"Because 419 is a hybrid, I don't have to worry about seeds flying around and invading my bluegrass."

That's what you think. That stuff will go right under the sidewalk. In fact in my hood, there's some places where it's grown right over the sidewalk!

I think you should seriously reconsider. If you want to use a warm season grass, there are far more versatile options. 419 es basura. I'm sorry to T-dub and everyone including myself who has it, but it is.

Last time I'm going to warn you.

You are about to make a mistake you cannot undo.

Anti-Bermudites are the worst.

quirky, I'm with you. I will never think of replacing my KBG lawn with bermuda. The are I'm sodding is not that important to me, so it doesn't really matter too much. Besides, the neighboring dogs use that strip of grass as their personal bathroom - which makes me mad.

However, I'm a bid concern with your comments about 419 being "basura" what do you say that? Is the grass that bad? I'm curious now...

Let me know, thanks.

BTW, how's your backyard project?

I am with QQ. They are impossible to get rid of. That's why they are called Devil's grass...

They will take over anything...

Pictures:

{{gwi:115048}}

{{gwi:115049}}

Compare performance of 419 to say tif sport or one of the better varieties and you'll seed why I say that. Or better yet compare it to something like seashore paspalum or bent that doesn't require so much fertilizer or precisely timed mowings to look good.

You can do what I did about your neighbor's dog which was write them a letter about it. (They never picked it up) Then they improved but slipped one day when I was outside and their unleashed dog came running into the yard to go to the bathroom and I screamed at the people with some choice words. Then it never happened again. Some people just don't care. These people not only don't care about the others that live in the neighborhood, they don't care if their dog gets run over by a car.

Anyway If you're in the transition zone, it's easy to fall in love with bermuda during the 3 months of the year it's at it's best. Especially when everything else looks like crap at that time. The rest of the growing season you're either preparing it to look good or preparing it to go dormant. Yay what a barrel of monkeys. It will still get burned by dog urine, that's something they probably don't mention at supersod.

If what you need is a grass that won't die and if you like working on your lawn during the most unpleasant time of the year weather-wise, and don't mind it being dormant most of the year, don't mind not having it look as good as the office parks because you don't have the right kind of mower then bermuda is the grass for you.

I hear you, quirky. You are exactly right, three months of glory! But that's exactly what I'm looking for, the rest of the year is going to be subjugated by a high dosage of PR. Believe me, I intent to punish 419 for all of the crimes its relatives have caused.

As far as seashore paspalum and bent, I can't punish either of them, they are too pretty. Seashore is imposible to find as sod, I've never seen it. Bent makes the best turf on the planet, unfortunately I don't have the time to properly care for it. And I would explode if I ever catch a dog peeing or pooping on my bentgrass lawn. But the most important reason I decided not to go with bent is because of the seed production it generates. I don't want it to invade my bluegrass, and I don't have a reel mower either. Maybe my next house, I can do a monostand of bentgrass and who cares if the neighbors fescue or bermuda lawns get infected. Actually, I do care, but I will grow it anyway.

QQ, you have picked a fight, and I am calling your bluff using your own words against you :>)

You have picked on Tifway as being cheap and ugly. Well I am here to tell you and others you are biased. Following is NTEP latest test results. I dare you to find one grass that scores better than Tifway. To compare apples-to-apples all the links are from the latest NTEP scores SUMMARY OF TURFGRASS QUALITY RATINGS. This is not just one region, it is the whole summary for all regions.

Bermuda
Bent
Fine Leaf Fescue
KBG High Input
Rye Grass
Tall Fescue
Zoysia
Saint Augustine

T-dub,
I am not picking a fight. The way I see it, is I am dissatisfied with the type of grass you sell. I've tried it and didn't like it for the reasons mentioned. You may not be used to being confronted by dissatisfied customers, so this is going to be a wakeup call for you. Try not to get your feelings hurt as it's nothing personal. Maybe in texas or the coastal plain the options for grass are limited. Fine. In cary, NC I don't think they are.

Also, I don't mean any offense but your comments are incredibly biased. And understandably so, you are passionate about and believe in your product. Just so everyone else here knows, texas-weed is a bermuda sod farmer and the success of his business depends on builders and landscapers to keep buying this grass and the continued publishing of high ntep ratings. (Think: J.D. Power & Associates best car in initial quality)

As for the NTEP ratings, you know as well as I do, the care regimen for those test plots is standardized. And you said it yourself, these bermuda cultivars require varying maintenance. And I've said that bermuda has very high quality ratings, even higher than cool season grasses IN COOL CLIMATES! But in a place like North Georgia or western NC, it takes a heck of a lot of work to acheive the high quality appearance for such a short growing season. Then when the penny finally drops and the homeowner wants to install something else, they can't. Because they have this bermuda they can't get rid of.

Now for my last point, bermudagrass is a catagory II invasive species here in GA and is on the list of plants that should not be cultivated. What this means is that bermuda is escaping cultivation and invading natural areas where it is displacing native plants resulting in less biodiversity.

Now you may say it's talking about common bermuda, I'd still argue it doesn't matter. The reason is because even the hybrid sod in my very own yard had spread outward a couple of feet into the natural area behind my house thereby preventing the establishment of native plants.

So I'd appreciate it if you and your sod farming buddies down in Tifton, stop peddling this noxious weed here in GA. It looks like crap most of the year and it's doing real damage to the environment. And don't get me started on all that fertilizer.

((Big smiley.))

QQ, how do I have any vested interest in what sod people choose? I don't own the patent or recieve royalties, I pay them. FWIW Bermuda is not the only sod I sell, I also sell SA and Zoysia and they have much higher profit margins.

Autech,

I have no dog in this fight. But based on your prior postings, the only place you had Rye grass was in the heck strip between the street and sidewalk.

I thought you believed the Rye was doing very well there. Why would you want to replace it? For what it is worth, my understanding is that the Bermuda will eventually grow under your sidewalk and invade your KBG.

I hope your experiment goes well. But it seems risky to plant that Bermuda there if you want to keep your cool season lawn in the rest of the yard.

Turf toes,

Good to hear from you. You are correct, the area to be sodded is where PR was growing up until 2 weeks ago. The recent parade of heat waves, record breaking temperatures, severe drought along with a high population of grubs did a number on the once beautiful PR you saw on the pictures. So dicided to kill the remaining PR grasses that were still standing and place 419 instead.

As a mention on my previous post, I'm only looking for 3 months of glory, PR will take over for the rest of the season/year.

I'll be overseeding with Turf Star PRG in October rather than in Labor Day to make sure 419 has a chance to root down well into the ground before winter.

I don't think bermuda can cross under the sidewalk and into my bluegrass. There are about 5 feet of concrete dividing the two areas.

Auteck, I'll get some pictures of some bermuda that has grown across the sidewalk in my hood. I've been meaning to take a photo of that for a while. Thats the stuff they should be putting in that patch perfect mix where they simulate grass growing on conrete blocks.

T-dub, it never hurts to have a popular product. That can only help. It doesn't have to make sense (like with S.U.V.'s), it just has to be in demand. Although if I were you, I'd want to also stay on the cutting edge with new species of grass that offer more to the end user. I'm not just talking about new cultivars of bermuda.

While jogging earlier this week, I was pleasantly surprised to see they had finally filled in a pothole near the edge of the road. When I got up to it, I stopped dead in my tracks though. A sprig of bermuda was growing right up through the newly laid asphalt! Now that is a tough grass.

QQ, I have kept up. Converting to Tifway-II an improved Tifway with finer texture, darker color, and much better cold tolerance for the same low price.

The bermuda sod I bought on Monday STILL looks like crap today despite all the water, fertilizer and preparation...??? What's going on with this grass? I'm having second thoughts about pulling out before it really takes root.

The Zoysia and Fescue sod they had at SuperSod looked 10 times better than the stupid bermuda. They told me that the cut it in the morning, put on a pallet the same day, drive up from South Carolina, and arrive to Raleigh; by the time it gets here it looks like crap (excuse my french) That it only takes a few days for it to looks good again. So I asked the lady, why then the Zoysia and specially, the FESCUE sod look 10 better than the 419??? Should couldn't give me a straight aswer.

Right now I'm VERY dissatisfied with my purchase, nothing like you see in the pictures posted on this thread. I feel like taking it back in exchange for some Fescue sod.

Texas weed, is this normal? Are this people trying to fool me? I think the company is from South Carolina and they know that people up here are not familiar with warm season grasses...

I'll be posting some pictures tomorrow morning.

Shock and you are expecting too much. Keep in mind the farmer more than likely sprayed the sod with a liquid fertilizer just before cutting that is absorbed by the leaves which greened it up, and to carry it through being transplanted.

Also understand at the farm the Bermuda has a very extensive root system many feet deep into prime sandy loam that receives TLC. Now all it has is an inch or less of root system that is not able to take up nutrients yet in sufficient quantities.

If you should decide to keep it you are going to have to exercise patients and let it set roots, and get acclimated to its new environment. What you describe is perfectly normal. Water, feed, and care for it and it will come around if it is indeed Tifway-I.

Why are you doing your hellstrip with a different type of grass anyway? If you're having good luck with KBG then why not just use that?

I did last year, but the neighboring dogs trashed it with their frequent visits and paw traffic. Only about 25% survived. I also did not water because I was out of town for 2 weeks in late August.

Anyway, I've made up my mind, after a week of hard work and ideal temperatures for bermuda to grow, it failed to meet my expectations. As a result, bermierda 419 will be discharged effective immediately. In its place, TTPRG will be seeded this coming weekend.

Thank you all for your comments.

quirky was right after all, thanks quirky.

ROTFL

I think you really should stick with the kbg though and put the smack down with regards to the neighbors and their inconsiderate habits.

I just came back from ohio and everyone had green grass. Came back here to where roughly 75% of all properties have warm season grass and it's brown as far as the eye can see. Moral of the story, in these weather conditions bermuda may survive but nothing is going to look good without irrigation.

Anyway, I've made up my mind, after a week of hard work and ideal temperatures for Bermuda to grow, it failed to meet my expectations.

You are obviously a Democrat! Absolutely no patients with no long term goals.

Why are you doing your hellstrip with a different type of grass anyway? If you're having good luck with KBG then why not just use that?

One heck of a statement coming from someone who has changed their grass types how many times in the last couple of years? ROFL

texas weed,

I'm actually registered republican, but I tend to like democratic candidates. However, not this coming election as I very much like Rudy Giuliani - before Bush was Al Gore whom I met in person.

Anyway, the main reason I decided to dump the Bermuda is because of its look when scalped. I actually set my mower down to 1.5 inches and what I ended up with was a bunch of sticks and dirt - no green. The fact that the Fescue sod looked 10 times better than Bermuda sod in the middle of the record high temperatures was hard to swallow. The condition of the sod was very poor; it looked like cool season grass during the summer months...

I'm disappointed to be honest, but I'm glad that I was able to decide on it quickly before those roots set in forever. I ended up selling the Bermuda rolls to a friend of mine that sodded his front lawn earlier in the year with 419 - he's well aware.

Anyway, I realize that my comments on the previous post might have offended you, but I can assure you that there was no upon intended. I do not hate Bermuda, I'm still growing those 10 pieces of Mini-Verde I wrote about on another post, actually 9 because 1 just died for no apparent reason.

Thank you for your contribution to my post and to this forum.

Regards,

Xavier

texas weed, btw, do you really think I don't have patiences for long term goals? Should I remind you that I started my 10,000sf kentucky bluegrass lawn from SEED?

auteck, don't get your shorts in a knot. It was just tounge-n-cheek humor. Relax!

I guess we're not patient enough with this administration and all of their monumental mistakes. Yeah, can't wait to get another wonderful republican candidate in office. Maybe we can start another war for corporate profits, wasting trillions of dollars with servicemen/women die in roadside bombs. You gotta have one hellluva lot of patience to be a republican.

As a registered independent, I'd like to say, "Can't we all just talk about grass?"

FWIW, it's "Patience", not "Patients"

Patients go to a doctor.

paragly9, LOL... Do you know how many times I've seen that......

Look at these pictures of beautiful bermuda 419:

{{gwi:115050}}
{{gwi:115051}}
{{gwi:115052}}

Auteck your lawn has been gettin' a beating huh?

Autech,

Is that a fungal issue there in the KBG on the right? (Was wondering if it was Brownpatch or Dollarspot).

I'm surprised that it looks like it's taken such a beating too.

Grubs... Hundreds of them, no joke. I didn't think it could happen to me, so I did not use any grub control. I had the lawn sprayed with fungicide during the months of June, July, and August. I usually water at night when mother nature does not provide. Some of it could be dog's urine as they walk up and down the sidewalk 365 days a year.

I found out that beattles like to lay their eggs near concrete, on a sunny location that's well watered. Beattles look for cool spots at night, usually well watered lawns are their target.

Look at the extensive damage these pesky creatures did to my blue:

{{gwi:115053}}

This one makes me want to cry...:-(

{{gwi:115054}}

On a positive note, I was relieved that it was not disease or heat that was killing my bluegrass. I no longer dread the hot summer months, my blue can take it.

This is my blend for those interested:

Midnight
Midnight II
Serene
Blackstone
Moonlight

By Turf-Seed.

Well whatever it was happened a long time ago. If it was from the recent heat, it wouldn't just up and walk away like that.
Also I don't think you would have seemingly "ok" looking green grass directly next to bare soil if it were heat/drought issues. I think you'd have some more evident stress throughout.

By no means a total loss though.

And I'm curious... has your HOA been sending you any nastygrams about your...... research plots there?

Not at all. I'm a former board member, so maybe I have some priviledges... Or maybe they just don't mind. They know I have one of the most beautiful lawns in the neighborhood, that I know. I'm still good friends with the President, Vice P., and Secretary - they're all good people.

Wow there is literally nothing left on the edges.

I've spent so much time this year planning my new lawn I think I would feel overwhelminghly frusterated if that happened to mine in the next 1-2 years.

You live and you learn some times. I have certainly learned from this, but unfortunately the hard way.

The damaged turf areas were removed 2 weeks ago in preparation for fall seeding.

Look at this picture taken in December 2006:

{{gwi:115055}}

auteck,

What I see in your pictures is scalped Bermuda in need of fertilizer and TLC. By your own admission:

Anyway, the main reason I decided to dump the Bermuda is because of its look when scalped. I actually set my mower down to 1.5 inches and what I ended up with was a bunch of sticks and dirt - no green.

Says it all. First Tifway should be kept no higher than 1-1/2 inches during the summer, more like 1-inch. If it looked scalped, and it does, tells me you just let it get too tall and neglected it. No Bermuda will looked good if it gets to tall then whacked back down.

If that's all the same sod, why didn't you put the strips up against each other and at all the way to one edge so when it spreads out it won't be quite so obvious. It will only have to fill in on one side that way.

Well now that we have had rain, the bermuda that I sprayed with roundup 7 times last year and 4 times in the last month or so has once again sprouted up all over the yard. It is so frustrating. This is costing so much money and taking so much time.

I have no experience with bermuda but have enjoyed this thread. It sounds like after the big nuclear disaster that is surely somewhere in our future, all life on earth will consist of cockroach colonies and bermuda prairies as far as the eye can see.

Well now that we have had rain, the bermuda that I sprayed with roundup 7 times last year and 4 times in the last month or so has once again sprouted up all over the yard. It is so frustrating. This is costing so much money and taking so much time.

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.

Look, if you're such an expert and claim bermuda is a great grass, and if I am wrong about it, then please tell me how I can get rid of it. You or your bermuda brethren have already made money on it, I just want it to die please.

QQ if the Bermuda was able to establish itself over a couple of years or more, you are stuck with it so to speak as it will always show itself.

The best way to remove it for a couple of years is to solarize the area. However it is too late this year to do that. Even with solarization it will pop back up from time-to-time.

This is one of those rare times I would suggest this, but my advice is quit fighting it. Go with a Bermuda lawn. Since you insist on having a green lawn during the winter over seed with a cool season blend in Sept/Oct time frame and nuke the cool season blend in the spring with Atrazene to let the Bermuda shine.

Otherwise keep up the life-long fight by pulling it up and supressing with Ester.

Thanks for answering my question.
Where is it coming from though? How is it able to produce food through photosynthesis if there are no leaves for such a long time?

Where is it coming from though?

Under the ground. As I stated earlier if the Bermuda was established the roots and rhyzomes are deep into the soil and no amount of herbicide will ever reach them. All it takes for it to resurface is a little water and time.

quirky, don't lose faith yet. About 1/8th of my current lawn was common bermuda grass 2 years ago that spread from my neighbor's lawn. It's all bluegrass today, and since the roundup attack of 2 years ago, not one bermuda has returned. The lawn was sprayed by a Landscaping company, then after it died, I completely destroyed the roots system with a roto tiller. I wish I would have taken pictures of it them, because I know that seeing is believing.

Having said that, I constantly have to patrol the areas adjacent to my neighbor's bermuda lawn. To matters worst, my neighbor is the type of guy that will let his bermuda grow to about 4 inches tall, seeds out like son of gun because it's a commong type, then chops it down to an inch leaving bermuda sticks and dirt. Then a couple of weeks later the cycle repeats.

I have a plan, next spring when the bermuda starts to come out of dormancy, I'm going to spray Turflon at night to make sure stays a sleep a little longer:-)

Tee-Dub, The roots only went about 12" deep. I know this from digging holes for fence posts. What is your take on that? And how long can the roots store energy with no means of producing food?

And Auteck, contrary to what I tell other people to do, my lawn could really benefit from tilling but it is so compacted that you can't rototill it. Instead, if you try, it rototills you.