Don't worry anny,
I'll pray to you all the rest of my life!
God, keep Annpart in your stockroom!

I appreciate that! It's some small comfort.

What day do I drink this? Day three?

Day three...

God said to us: wait, and it render!

I have been fascinated by this thread, and decided to brew up a batch. I used 6 tbsp. rye flour (not organic) in 1 1/2 gall of well water, in a clear plastic container. I set it next to a window, but no direct sun, and gave it a shake once a day for three days. It smelled a bit sour and a bit yeasty, but not "bad". I then added two heaping tbsp. honey, one heaping tbsp of epsom salts, and the contents of one chamomile teabag. Two days more and it is smelling really nice ! As soon as it stops raining here I will be trying it as a 1/10 diluted foliar spray with a little neem added, and a 50/50 diluted soil drench on the new veg garden. I don't think I'll drink any though.

mandolls,

I advise you to dilute it 1/10 for soil drench too.
And water around the stem, not directly under it.
This thing can be very acidic/robust for some plants.
If you'll see some signs of withering, then just drench soil with clear water.

Will do - -thanks for the advice. By the way, yesterday I could smell the honey and chamomile, today it is back to smelling yeasty and sour - should I add more? OR just keep it as it is,(since I'm not drinking it anyway)

If to add more honey/sugar then it will be just more acidic. Honey or sugar is a food both for lactic acid bacteria and yeasts. Lactic acid bacteria are more active. Yeasts make gas CO2 and alcohol. But it takes LONG time for yeasts (and much honey) to make significant amount of alcohol, so alcohol there is VERY low. Gas CO2 is more important. It makes "sparkling" and agitates all the mixture. Lactic acid bacteria overcompete yeasts and make lactic acid much more rapidly than yeasts make alcohol. Smell of honey can disappear since LB eat honey. But in my experience the smells of herbs remain.

Well, keep it as it is. But it's better to add small amount of honey or sugar 1 day befor the using in order to activate (multiply) lactic acid bacteria.

Lactic acid bacteria are very good for sprinkling against infections of plants because lactic acid has sterilizing effect.

I sprinkle plants without dilution but very rapidly, so not too much of kvas remains on plants. I want to test this thing against powdery mildew and phytophtora.

It's very good also to add pepper (1 teaspoon per gallon, wait 1 day) if you want to use it against insects.
I'm trying now this method against Colorado beatles on potatoes and going to see results tomorrow. I sprinkled them today in the evening.

Valerie, I'm on day three with the rice mixture. I'm adding the first sugar today. I'm confused, though. Step 7. Pour out the stuff in the bottles? And use it, I presume? Add sugar and water to the original vessel? Am I adding more water and sugar to the rice left in the bottom of the original vessel, which has had its liquid poured off?

(Thanks)

1. Grind rice in coffee grinder
2. Add 10 tablespoons of that stuff into gallon of water
3. Wait 2 days
4. Add 1 tablespoon of sugar to it
5 Wait 1 day

7. Pour out the stuff in bottles, close them

8. Add water to vessel and 1 tablespoon of sugar again

9. Wait 1 day

10. Pour out the stuff in bottles, close them

11. Add water to vessel and 1 tablespoon of sugar again

12. Wait 1 day

13. Pour out the stuff in bottles, close them

14. Add water to vessel and 1 tablespoon of sugar again

15. Wait 1 day

Valerie, I'm on day three with the rice mixture. I'm adding the first sugar today. I'm confused, though. Step 7. Pour out the stuff in the bottles? And use it, I presume?

Yes. Keep bottles in refrigerator. Not long time.
It's nice beverage.

Add sugar and water to the original vessel? Am I adding more water and sugar to the rice left in the bottom of the original vessel, which has had its liquid poured off?

Yes.

Pour out 3/4 of the liquid. And left 1/4 in vessel.
Then add water and sugar.
After 1 day it will be ready again.

Advise: put some raisins there.

The cycle can be repeated many times.
But if it became "stinky" - don't drink it and stop the process.

Good! It's smelling pretty good today. I wish I'd rinsed the rice because the water is slightly dirty-colored, but I'm going to forget about the dirt, refrigerate the liquid tomorrow, and drink it tomorrow evening cold. I'll add some raisins to my second batch, although if they plump up too much, I may not be able to drink it.

I may feed this to my chickens, too.

Well, wellcome to the World of Fermentation!
It's amasing world!

Ok i've been reading these threads for a week now. I started my own batch of kvas in a 1.5 litre glass wine bottle and used plastic between the metal lid. i used roughly 4tbsp of rye flour and water, no molasses since i read it would slow down the process and could be added later. I left on a shelf outside my window that gets full sun most of the day, but is significantly cooler at night. I shook it a couple times a day for the first 3 days, then once a day after that. It's been about a week. I opened it for the first time just now...
-it's cloudy translucent color, with two layers of sediment at the bottom- grainy brownish on the bottom, finer white on top of that.
-slight odor, reminds me of something i can't place, not specifically "pleasant" but definitely not bad.
-tastes a little sour, only a little fizzy. i enjoy it.

so now a few questions i have-

1- Valerie i notice you seem to use plastic. Does it make any difference between plastic or glass?

2- i did not allow the chlorine to evaporate from the tap water. Does anyone know what the consequences might be from fermenting it with chlorine?

3- I am ready to add something to the mix. I will use raw honey instead of molasses but i was interested in the idea of FPE and was wondering what difference it makes compared with regular kvas?

I had the idea to add the pruned leaves from my tomato plants which smell amazing, and then use the resulting kvas on the tomato plants themselves. Any thoughts?

I love this thread by the way. Thank you, Valerie, and everyone else for your input!
Cynthia

Cynthia,

Thank you very much for your input too!

Not to say that I know everything, but the more I'm working with this thing called kvas, the more it intrigue me too.

Well, I made many mistakes in thinking since I began my experiments. It's very natural.
Now I came to this method:

A cup of rye flour per gallon of water.
Sit 2 days.
Does not matter if it closed from air or open.

Really, I make it now in plastic barrels and they are open, and no problem! I have a lot of white kvas. It has nice smell, OK.

One of my barrel is 60 litres, and another is 40. I used 2 kg of rye flour, so I've made 100 litres of kvas from 2 kg of rye flour. It's very cheap for me!

All I make is just mix it once per day by large stick.

This thing is similar to sour milk, I think.
It's very healthy, too. I whash my hands there and even the face sometimes - it's very pleasant!
(By the way I unload dandruff too.)

How I used this thing? And what are results?

1. Planting

I made comparative research with the beet.
One plot was planted with kvas.
I just watered the soil with this white kvas and pushed the seeds of the beet there.
On another plot I made the same but without kvas, just only with water.

I want to say that the beet on the plot with kvas is 2 times higher and luxury green than the plot without kvas.

Why?

2. Pests.

I sprinkled one of the most strong pest in the world - colorado beatles on potatoes. I used pure kvas without dilution. Now I can say only about adultes, larvae have not appeared yet. Adultes became to move from one potatoe plant to another, and they are still there, but there are very few of them now.

So, this is my results now.

But what surprise me most of all is my beets.
I used very small amount of kvas!
But they are definetly much more than neighbors.
Why?

I came to conclusion:

Lactic acid bacteria established in soil during planting.
Then, after beets began to grow, beets emited carbohydrates (sugar) into soil, that is very common to plants, and lactic acid bacteria ate this sugar (think about addition of molasses to kvas) making lactic acid which (as any other acid) dissolved minerals making food for plants. More strong plants emit more sugar. More lactic acid bacteria. More food for plants.

What I'm still surprising - I watered my home plants 1 year ago with kvas, and 1/2 year ago. And not after then. But they are still grow and grow and grow!
I think I understand - why!

Sorry if I missed something in your questions, my message is large enough, and I need a rest.

Don't be shy to ask again!

Answers to the questions.

1- Valerie i notice you seem to use plastic. Does it make any difference between plastic or glass?

No difference. But high pressure can be inside the bottle and plastic bottle is better from this point of view.

2- i did not allow the chlorine to evaporate from the tap water. Does anyone know what the consequences might be from fermenting it with chlorine?
Its better to make without chlorine. Chlorine kills microbes.

3- I am ready to add something to the mix. I will use raw honey instead of molasses but i was interested in the idea of FPE and was wondering what difference it makes compared with regular kvas?
Some plants repel insects. FPE made from these plants repel insects too. Plants are also a food for microbes. So, FPE is a cheap way to get more kvas from weeds.

I had the idea to add the pruned leaves from my tomato plants which smell amazing, and then use the resulting kvas on the tomato plants themselves. Any thoughts?
I dont know but I think it is possible.

Anybody has tried corn syrop instead of sugar or honey?

Why do some want to tinker with Valerie's formula right now? Shouldn't we be trialing his original formulas using molasses to see if we get the same results he claims work? Would like to hear your thoughts on this, Valerie.

Why did this thread die? Was looking forward to results.

Where are all the folks experimenting with this Kwas? Kingkongos and others?

Maybe they drank their solution? and are happy campers?

Intriguing thread. Took me awhile to figure out what you were all writing about, tho.

kingkongos
Your garden enclosure is very nice. Would you tell us what type of posts you used.
Thank you
Happy Gardening
Jan

I have been so busy with expanding and preparing for spring that I haven't done any further experiments since the one mentioned above. In those, both the peppers as well as a few squash plants that received kvass showed noticeable improvements. I also used it on my indoor winter vegetable seedlings and although I didn't have a control group, I had extremely healthy seedlings ready to transplant in a very short period of time. So, it's too early to tell but the results I had were promising.

I've now expanded my garden to about 3000 sq ft and will have many opportunities to experiment further. I'll report back periodically.

Thanks Okak! I used 2" PVC which is coated with a protective spray-paint.

Kingkongos,
What solution did you use on your seedlings? Straight kvas or diluted? How often? Did you use any other fertilizers? What kind of seedling mix did you use (wondering if it contained compost)?

Enclosure is very good, agree with Okak. Can you tell what spray paint did you use?

thanks

I used diluted (1-2 ounces/gallon) kvas about 2 times a week. I also used a liquid fertilizer called Biothrive Grow/Bloom at the recommended amounts. The starter mix was the Organic Jiffy Seed Starter Mix from Home Depot (vermiculite, perlite, peat moss). With my winter veggies, I only grow them for about 4 weeks tops in 72 cell trays...so no potting up.

The spray paint is called Krylon Fusion for plastic.

thank you, kingkongos.

Anybody else was using kvas last year?

I trying the rye flour recipe, but the flour dont want to disolve in the jug. The type of flour that im useing is dark rye flour. It looks like sand in the bottom of the milk jug. I have been shaking the jug about 4 times a day. Also i use 2 tablespoons molasses with the flour. Dose anybody know why the flour wont disolve??? ,,,,thanks

Hey rlv4, to pick this up years later I do have a testimony for you on kvass. I bought an avocado tree that I later noticed had a bad spot on the bark near the ground level. The bark was eroding away and seemed to threaten the life of the tree. I tried several organic solutions (not to mention complete organic program with the soil). I finally tried spraying kvass on the area full strength and it healed up nicely. I am also a big believer in using probiotics and cultured foods for human nutrition and have benefitted greatly personally by them. I have not tried kvass internally yet but plan to very soon.

I am also planning to use it. Very useful thread, thanks everyone.

Caelian

Interesting discussion. Kvas was my favourite summer drink when I was growing up in Russia and it had never occurred to me that it could be used in your garden. We also had Red Kvas but i bever liked it, I guess it was a flavored type. Those who are not so keen to try it: you are missing a lot. You can drink it (chilled of course) or you can even make summer soup with it called Okroshka. Basically you use kvas as a liquid and add chopped: eggs, radishes, green onions, dill, potatoes and luncheon or ham. Its a favorite cold summer soup in Russia.
I live in Dubai now and we don't have it here (well maybe in Russian shops but those are ridiculously overpriced) and though I knew you can make it at home I never tried it (cuz until recently I never found rye flour here). Our soil is actually sand that is very alkaline. I did read the thread but the info was quite overwhelming. Well I actually started by searching for homemade fish fertilizer, cuz here our choice is pretty limited and expensive, and link after link I ended up here. Now my questions are:

How can kvas be used in my conditions on our soil? We are actually starting our gardening season as the temperatures are dropping. Rain is scarce but we have irrigation. I am planning to use square foot gardening as well as container gardening, but I also have some trees in the ground (at planting time I added potting soil and peat moss to the holes).

Since compost choices are limited here I am starting my own. How can kvas be used with compost? Can it be used to speed things up?

I hope someone can help me with the questions.
By the way yesterday, after reading this thread, I started a batch of kvas with whole wheat flour and another batch with rice water. I'll try to report back here with my observations.

Dubai-gardener,
I guess red kvas was beet kvas as I remember for my years in Russia.
I think you can layer raw things that you usually put in compost, spray with kvas (it will speed decomposture) and cover with another layer of your soil.

gregstep,
flour will not dissolve, it has to ferment.
Maybe you added water that has chlorine and it called lacto bacteria.

Last year I used kvas on tomatoes and did not have late blight. This summer I skipped this step and got late blight, maybe this is coincident, not sure.

"Last year I used kvas on tomatoes and did not have late blight. This summer I skipped this step and got late blight, maybe this is coincident, not sure."

Given that both early and late blight famously comes and goes based on various factors, I would say that it is extremely likely that the role of kvas in your anecdote is coincident - IOW, it's absence did not cause late blight to attack the plants, nor did its presence eliminate late blight.

Dubai-gardener, don't forget cucumbers for your Okroshka :)
Earlier this year I made a batch of "kvas" to fight some super stinky carpet in the house we rented. Luckily, we moved out of there and I have some great "kvas" with me. It was made like it is described here, some rye flower, molasses and water. The first batch turned bad, it had some strange overtones to it. The second one smelled just like kvas I remember. I use it to keep my compost from smelling bad and, I believe, it does more than that. I use it to water the soil before planting, it makes it smell earthy good.

Yes gvozdika I forgot cucumbers :)
I am making a batch with whole wheat flour now, I added the sugar today, and also added date syrup since I don't have molasses on hand, will see how it goes.
Are you Russian by any chance (gvozdika)?

Pnbrown,
Let me not to agree with you. If you google "late blight tomatoes probiotics" you can read info about some researches. And because kvas does contain probiotics, I believe that my this year problem was connected with fact that I have not used probiotics (I have used leftover of home made kefir in addition to kvas last years).

You do agree with me, because as you said all that can be known is that the use of kvas was coincident one time with an absence of late blight.

There were probably certain birds or insects on or near the plants as well in the absence of late blight and then those same animals were absent in the presence of late blight the next year. Probably not causal.

Valerie, it is a pleasure to note that this interesting topic has been resurrected again. Let me add my updates/observations. etc. to the discussion. I continue to use the same formula: 6 tablespoons of rye flour, 2 tablespoons of dry molasses granules in one plastic gallon bottle of chlorine free water which stands sealed in the daylight, shaken several times a day for three days. Just for my own interest I made one gallon of this formula using water that had been boiled for 10 minutes, cooled, flour and molasses then added. This I set on my back porch exposed to sun, shade and the elements for two years. It remained clear and when I opened it the fragrance was pleasant and yeasty. I used it to water winter vegetables which thrived! Beautiful, deep green healthy plants.

1. I find that this formula works well here in my southern conditions best on winter growing plants. Plants growing in my summer heat and humidity appear stunted and not healthy. Very northern gardeners may have a difference experience.

2. I will trial using a diluted spray for tomato blight next summer as under discussion above. Sometimes little thoughts like this dropped here on GW have led to some interesting discoveries such as....

3. Over on the Tree Forum the idea of saving trees with damaged bark (especially young ones) using a slurry made of garden soil and water rubbed on the damaged areas was mentioned. So far this method has worked well for me. I have been using the Kvas water worked into fine, sieved soil as a slurry which is then applied gently and thinly.

"Over on the Tree Forum the idea of saving trees with damaged bark (especially young ones) using a slurry made of garden soil and water rubbed on the damaged areas was mentioned."

That is an awesome way to introduce possible pathogen in the soil to a plant.

It kinda blows my mind anyone would suggest that, especially to a high value plant such as a tree. Soil splash is the main cause of viral and bacterial spread of disease to plants outside of piercing/sucking insect visitation.

Unless a tree is "ringed" to the cambium layer(s) all the way around or the bark damage is extremely severe the tree will survive just fine.

Also, I hate to even venture into this, but some of you are doing incorrect things with your LAB (lactic acid bacteria) mixtures as it pertains to plant application...such as the kvass mixture that seems to be ruling this thread. I underlined "plant application" because this method may produce kvass (or other LAB mixtures) not suitable for human consumption. I don't drink kvass, so I dunno. I do, however, know how to make LAB mixtures for plant use.

1- You want to keep it out of direct light and in a breathable container at room temperature (or a container with a thin cloth on top secured with rubber bands, or something similar) while creating the mixture and doing the fermenting

2- If it doesn't smell a bit sour/off after a couple days after the initial mix, it's not doing it's thing

3- You don't want to shake/agitate the mixture and introduce oxygen into the process because this is an anaerobic process. This is very important and disturbing the mixture can kill the anaerobic bacteria you're trying to culture and instead culture other types of bacteria or totally kill the whole process.

4- It should separate after 3-5 days into a "cloudy liquid" + solids layers (up to a week if cold)

5- You want to keep the "cloudy liquid" part and get rid of the solids. Get as much of the solids out as you can. You're shooting for as close as you can get to 100% separation...solids will add to "off" smells as well as more quickly "turn bad" the final product.

6- Store loosely capped or in a "breathable" bottle so it doesn't explode

7- At room temperature you have a week...refrigerated, you have up to 5-6 months

8- It should have a sweet-to-neutral smell...if it smells "rotten" it's beyond...if it smells "earthy" it's way beyond use date and pretty much dead

Btw, you can make a whole lot more powerful LAB mixture using rice and milk in a 2-step process...way more powerful. Do steps 1-5 listed above with rice water (directions below), then add 1 part of the finished/fermented rice water to 9 parts milk (make sure to only fill the container 3/4 full because there will be severe solid separation, a whole lot more than the rice) and repeat steps 1-5 listed above...then carry on from there with parts 6-8. This culture should be diluted heavily for application (a bit under 1 teaspoon per gallon or 3 tablespoons per 10 gallons) and once diluted it should be lightly stirred/shaken to incorporate and used immediately. More is -not- better...this is very strong stuff.

Btw, you're probably only going to need a mason jar (or smaller) batch of this. Most home gardeners are not going to need a lot of this.

...to make the rice water you're going to ferment for step 1...

1- fill a container 1/2 full with rice

2- dump the dry rice into something you can sieve water through and collect all the water that will go through it

3- fill the container 3/4 full with water (without the rice)

4- pour the water over the rice, collecting the pour-through water

5- run the collected water through the rice again and repeat until you get a white-cloudy water

-afterthought edit- ...and if you don't want to waste anything, do it when you're planning to cook rice and salvage that rinsed rice since you're only using the rinsed rice water...though it'll be kinda "sticky." :)

I started a batch with wholemeal flour and the rice water. I am on day 5 today for both. I found the instructions for rice water thing online, on a website about newspaper bokashi. I was initially gonna use the rice water for homemade EM for newspaper bokashi, but also thought I'd use it as kvas is mentioned here.
The flour mixture didn't smell bad on day 2, on day 3 it smelled BADLY, on day 4 it was better. Today the smell is sour but not as offending.
Will report how it all goes.

I drank a lot of kvas back home in Russia as most of people in that country.
Last couple years I was experimented with kvas in garden, well, I used not only kvas. I have made own kefir using tiberan kefir mushrooms and was using leftover and water that I used for washing mushrooms in garden. My garden liked my treatment.
I will continue my experiments next year, this time separate areas where I am using kvas for areas that I am using some other amendments.

Dubai-gardener, if it smells bad even just a little, better throw it away and try another batch (yes, I'm Russian :) I don't know but hope that there is more than LAB in kvas. Fermenting flower is like making sourdough starter, so it should host LAB and fungi.
Nandina, thank you for sharing your experience. Reading this thread I wondered where are all the people who tried this :)
Nc-crn, I keep my "kvas" in the refrigerator for more than 6 months now. I take some of it to use, add a little bit of sugar and some water to bring it to the level it was, mix well and give it another week or so. It still smells like kvas ( luckily I remember how kvas should smell :)

Yeah, my recipe is based on a single culture production, not a continuous feeding/recharging.

550 calories; 31 grams protein; 18 grams carbohydrates; 2 grams fiber; 38 grams fat; 13 grams saturated fat; 115 mg cholesterol; 6 grams sugar; 909 mg sodium.
Organic seeds exporter

Gvozdika, but didn't Valerie and others said it smells bad in the beginning? And Valerie said that wholemeal flour would be worse. Am I missing something? Я запÑÑалаÑÑ Ð¿Ð¾ ÑÐ¾Ð´Ñ Ð´ÐµÐ»Ð°.

Btw, the spam from "Earthendelight" isn't talking about anything in this thread.

Oddly, it happens to be the nutritional profile of a Wild Game Meatloaf recipe posted from the LA Times two years ago.

Bots have their peculiar ways to intrigue people :)
Dubai-gardener, from my understanding, we are trying to catch and grow some microorganisms using different mediums in different environments. Our results may vary widely. We don't have any lab equipment so we have to use our senses (and our common sense :) to judge if we have the right guys after they settle in there. My first batch didn't smell bad at first and then it got a funny overtone. The next batch didn't have any bad smells and I kept it for almost a week. I was reading about capturing beneficial indigenous microorganisms at that time so I kept the jar by the open window. The place where we lived had very nice fungal activity (I used some soil from there to bring my dying camellia back to life!) Just keep trying and experimenting, it's fun! Udachi!

We'll gvozdika I went with my gut feeling and threw the batch away, will try again.

I have read both threads about kvas but may not have grasped everything in detail - I would appreciate if I could get a confirmation/clarification on a few points:
(a)container does not need to be closed
(b)container should not be shaken (Would shaking the container have an adverse effect / formation of CO2/gases ?)
(c)after several days the sediment is removed.
(d)If (a) is true, is the only way one can tell that the kvas is bad is if it smells bad ?

Other than the above, I am also interested in using kvas for fermenting grass/compost etc.. In one of the posts, it was mentioned that kvas should be diluted 1:10 and could be used as EM/directly for fermenting. I guess that the fermentation still needs to be done anaerobically. I have taken two 15l paint buckets and have filled them with vegetable scraps, grass etc. sprinkling kvas (diluted 1:8) on each layer and compressing each layer (eg. 2cm) until filled. Not sure if fermentation will work as one of the buckets seemed to be creating gases/ I needed to put some stones on the lid to keep it closed. I'm not sure if opening the bucket will kill the whole process/how long should I wait before opening ?

forgot one more question:
what is the final say on adding sugar/molases etc. at start/ afterwards regarding producing a more acidic/yeasty kvas
(sorry if it is a stupid question but no time to brush up on my chemistry) and if such a thing as a more "yeasty" kvas exists, can it produce fungal problems if sprayed on plants ?

Just my thoughts on this, but I think nc-crn's recipe with rice water and milk is the best for plant use.
nc-crn, what about using acidophilus pills or other lacto-pills that can be bought over-counter for use? How would you whip up a recipe using that?

Having kvas on hand when those summer vegetables start producing is also a good idea for making Okroshka, a chilled summer soup that I actually like quite alot.

I'll have to look that recipe up. I started some as well, just because I like to learn through experimentation.