I guess it depends on if you are in the "Hamas" or "Hezbolla" faction of the organic gardening movement to decide whether or not cotton seed hulls are ok to use in a compost product. Composting usually renders most organic or carbon based pesticides harmless, which I tend to agree it does, but I have no data to back it up. I think your risk is so minimal that you probably get more exposure to pesticides when they spray for mosquitos or a neighbor sprays their yard with Malathion. I guess it is a matter of how fanatical you want to be with organic gardening.

The_Virginian, you're doing the argument-by-insult thing again. Please stop.

Characterizing people who you disagree with as "Hamas" or "Hezbolla" and "fanatical" is not making a reasoned case for your opinions. It does nothing to advance your ideas or make you appear right.

You can say what you mean without trash talk. Please do so.

All the best,
-Patrick

Cotton seed meal/products are also a problem because much of the cotton grown today is genetically modified - definitely not organic.

Cotton is easy to grow. I've been growing a small crop here in MN for the past three years. I spin the fiber, save some seeds and crush the rest along with the plant waste, and use this to fertilize acid-loving plants like blueberries and azeleas.

Althea: Organic compostition has nothing to do with genetic engineered plants as they all break down into compost anyway and can not possibly genetically alter another plant or cause harm in anyway.

Patrick: Perhaps you could look into buying a sense of humor, really.

The_Virginian, I have a superb sense of humour. :) I've enjoyed many forms of humour for all my life. I use humour every day, including in almost every post I write on the net, here and elsewhere. In fact, I've been paid money for writing humour for publication. I don't need to "buy" anything relating to humour.

And I don't find your insults funny. Please stop.

All the best,
-Patrick

p.s. Rather than attempting to turn the focus of your problem with insulting people onto me -- why don't you put your energies into reading and respectfully replying to the comments, opinions and links people have provided in the "Concrete Proof Milorganite is bad" thread in this forum?

Insulting others or insulting me doesn't prove anything. Put your attention to making a convincing case. Instead of ignoring what others have written, or insulting them.

"Althea: Organic compostition has nothing to do with genetic engineered plants as they all break down into compost anyway and can not possibly genetically alter another plant or cause harm in anyway."

Really? Virginian, I'm guessing you don't have any data to back up that statement either.

Cotton is a Genetically Engineered plant (to withstand the heavy doses of herbicides sprayed on then) and that is unacceptable to any organic gardener. The waste from cotton growing or processing, whether composted or not, is also unacceptable to organic gardeners because of the heavy doses of herbicides and pesticides used. If that makes me a "hamas" or "hezbolla" organic gardener that is fine, but I am not all that willing to compromise the basic principles of organic gardening. If we all just let "minor" compromises slide in soon the organic movement would be nothing, and there are people here, on this Organic Gardening Forum that are trying, very hard, to make compromises on principles.

Does being genetically modified necessarily mean inorganic?

My list of things that I am uncomfortable about is increasing. I'd like to have a granite countertop, but granite is mined from my lovely state and the shoreline is pretty marred from granite mining around Stonington. I don't think I'm going to be able to talk myself into that counter.

Loam. I will never buy loam again. I know exactly where loam comes from. It's a highly unethical operation. Contractors rob it from construction sites or strip it from people willing to sell their property's most valuable asset. Loam is my new peat moss.

The old me didn't put anything in my compost that was inorganic. I wouldn't put banana peels or commercial bouquets (both heavily pesticided) or foods with preservatives into my compost. I don't buy the oft repeated sentiment here that composting scours the ingredients of pesticide residue and other toxins. I've heard it here repeatedly; I've never heard an expert say so. Maybe they do, I've never seen it.

The new me is desperate to make soil for this topsoil-robbed property. I couldn't make enough compost to rebuild the soil from my own organic ingredients, and I've just started doing something that was formerly taboo for me. I go to the landfill and I bring home tons of grass clippings, plant clean-up, pumpkins, finished compost, and other unknown sources of compost contributions. I put horse manure with its antibiotics into my compost. I'm not happy about it, but I justify it because I need to build up soil to keep road phosphates from rushing down my hill to the lake.

I try very hard in some ways and I sell my soul in other ways. I kayak with a bunch of women who enjoy making a fire when we're sitting on an ocean island at night. I try very hard to give up something else so I can enjoy the fires, too. For instance, I paid more to have my camera repaired last year than it would have cost me to buy a new better camera (with sound). (Idiot.)

What do hamas and hezbolla mean? I have not come across those terms outside of this forum. Personally, I am against genetic modification, and have been known to rant at length on the subject.
Lorna

Something that is Genetically Modified is no inorganic simply because of that GM status. Genetically Modified plants, those that have genes of substances that would not get there excpet in a laboratory, are anathama to an organic gardener, farmer. Contrary to what some think, this is not the same thing that has been happening for eons through plant pollination since these genes would not get there that way. Since the glyphosate products are not acceptable to an organic gardener/farmer there is no reason to have a plant that will withstand large applications of that product to the field. None of the Genetically Engineered plants that have been developed to date benefit anyone except a chemical company that has a product to sell, and the USDA is reporting very large increases in applications of herbicides today because the "weeds" these herbicides are meant to control are developing resistence to them and some have even been found to contain the gene that makes the crops resistant to the herbicide, cross pollination, something that was not supposed to happen.

What do hamas and hezbolla mean? I have not come across those terms outside of this forum

Two Palestinian political organizations. Both want an independent state for Palestine. Hamas was elected into political power in the last election and now the two parties are fighting amongst each other for the "hearts and minds" of the Palestinian people.

Sounds like there are a few different arguments going on here. The initial poster was just warning people to be aware that cotton byproducts may be high in chemical residue and so might not be so great for organic gardening.

To be a certified Organic producer, the rules are pretty strict about what is allowed.

To be a backyard organic gardener, there are not regulations so it is difficult to be strict. Most backyard "organic" gardeners are really just people trying to protect themselves from some chemical herbicide or pesticide exposure. Very few are going to "reserve" there dirt for a certain number of years free of all chemical use before thinking of themselves as being an "organic gardener".
Heck, I've seen some people on the forum insist that they are still "organic gardeners" because they don't use pesticides but (because that is what organic gardening means to them) they still use miracle grow or another chemical fertilizer.

Now a few times I've seen people say that something like a banana peal is inorganic because it has been exposed to pesticides. That is really a mis-statement since the pesticides don't cause the peal to become inorganic (like a rock or bit of plastic or something). It is just not a suitable certified organic thing anymore.

To me, trying to be organic or perhaps more accurately sustainable and healthy, means trying to build up the soil. If that means collecting leaves, grass clippings and any other organic matter, so be it. Perhaps there are some traces of stuff that might not be so great but I don't see filling the landfill with that stuff as being a better alternative for it. I don't throw bad "non Organic" produce in the trash, it all goes in the compost. It isn't as if I'm picking up huge amounts of anything I know is highly contaminated so it isn't as if I'm going to break my compost.

Perhaps GM plants are not appropriate for "organic gardening" and the cotton industry is bad. Does that mean one is supposed to not buy any cotton products at all that are not certified organic? For some people, perhaps yes?
For me,I'm going to work on improving the things I can and not stress too much over the things I can't change.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Garden

I guess you can define "organic" gardening anyway you want is what you're saying?

I don't think tyclnx is saying that one can define organic gardening anyway one wants to. The poster is pointing out that people who aren't gardening organically, sometimes claim they are organic gardeners.

People garden organically for various reasons. Some are following regulations because they cannot sell their produce as organic otherwise. People like me, chemically sensitive people, grow our own to get away from chemicals as much as possible. I think anyone who even considers organic gardening does have the hope to help prevent further pollution, or violation, of our environment. If you create your own compost, you are contributing much less to the garbage landfills than the average American.

It isn't possible to be fanatical on the subject without driving oneself to insanity. As tclynx stated, I, too, will compost banana peels from conventionally grown bananas. But most of the produce I purchase is labelled "organic", so few non-organic kitchen scraps are going into my compost. I don't use chemical fertilizers or pesticides in my garden. If a person doesn't know that cotton is a heavily sprayed crop, using cotton burr compost compromises an organic objective. I do my own composting, but I cannot create as much as I need for my garden. Therefore, I also purchase commercial compost.

I garden organically but I cannot claim that my garden is organic (according to standards and regulations). I have only had control of this land for five years. I don't know what was used on this land in years gone by. Luckily, I have no fear of ovespray drifting onto my land from conventional farmers. There are no farms in the area.

Hamiltongardner, thanks for the definition of Hamas and Hezbolla. I don't see how it applicable to organic gardening. I think somebody is just bandying terms about to appear in the know.

As for the perpetrators of Genetically Modified plants. Those fools are a threat to life on Earth. Their plants produce sterile seeds, as well as requiring copious amounts of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. Monsanto and other GM companies are trying to gain monopoly of the world's food resources. Nothing about what they are doing is for the betterment of humankind, as kimmsr stated, it is all about capitalism. The crops grown by one GM farmer can cross-pollinate an area of at least 50 miles diameter, which could contaminate all other farms in the area, causing their crops to have sterile seeds.

Lorna

There is a difference between being "green" and being an organic gardener. I have relaxed what I'll put in my compost or garden, but I at least admit that when I bring a bunch of pesticided grass clippings home from the landfill, I can no longer claim to be an organic gardener. What I say is that I garden as organically as I can.

I was just disagreeing with this statement:

"Now a few times I've seen people say that something like a banana peal is inorganic because it has been exposed to pesticides. That is really a mis-statement since the pesticides don't cause the peal to become inorganic (like a rock or bit of plastic or something). It is just not a suitable certified organic thing anymore."

Indeed, if you've got pesticides on a banana peel, what you have is definitely not an organic compost ingredient. Does it matter much? I don't know. Some chemicals are persistent in the soil.

I agree with keeping as much out of the landfill as a person can, but rather than contaminate our individual plots of land (say by composting trash that may contain heavy metals) I'd prefer to see the landfills managed better.

Just curious. Do people opposed to genetically modified or genetically engineered crops wear garments made from genetically modified cotton? What is the alternative?

Hamiltongardner, thanks for the definition of Hamas and Hezbolla. I don't see how it applicable to organic gardening. I think somebody is just bandying terms about to appear in the know.

I think he was trying to make a comment on the infighting in the "organic" camps over little details, and that some gardeners are extremist in their views, like "It's my way of doing things and everyone else is wrong."

While Patrick is right about the comments being insulting, I do see the point the_virginian is making. Someone doesn't use cotton seed meal because it may have been sprayed with pesticides. That's fine, but what about tree leaves? Could they have picked up some pesticides or maybe something in the watertable. Better not use the leaves then. Pesticides on banana peels? Better not do any composting. Some people consider cotton "non-organic" if it's GM cotton, even though it's still organic material. Then it becomes a matter of principle rather than a truly "non-organic" issue. Some people won't use manure because the animals may have had medicine in their system when they pooped it out. Some people even have issues of principle about spending money on garden materials like organic compost or manure.

You say you garden as organically as you can because of a sensitivity to chemicals. I think most backyard organic gardeners do. I do too. I stay away from the sprays and chemicals and pesticides, but I know I have neighbours who spray their lawns. I'm sure I have had overspray or runoff of chemical fertilizers. But I still consider myself an organic gardener. Not an organic FARMER. An organic GARDENER.

I've noticed in my time here that most people have differing opinions on what "level" of organic you have to be before you can be considered organic. If you don't meet their standards, then you better not call yourself an organic gardener in front of them. 'Cause they will go Hezbollah on your a$$.

Organic cotton fabrics such as clothing, towels, and bed linens have recently become much more affordable and available. Previously they were prohibitively expensive, and not widely marketed. It is not possible for GM cotton to be an organic product. GM crops are engineeered to require chemical fertilizers and pesticides.

Hamiltongardner, I do agree with your comments about the elitism. It doesn't do much to encourage people. Personally, I think every person, who makes an effort, is creating a positive impact on our environment. It is all good, as long as one is making an effort.

I am lucky in that I live in a rural area. I have a lot of trees providing leaves to compost, and more land than I can cultivate. I only have one neighbor in close proximity. My water comes from a well.

It took a lot of years of patience and hard work to be able to afford to move out of the major metropolitan area where I used to live. I moved from Berkeley, California to central New Mexico. I had a lot to learn about country living, and there was some culture shock. However, I am glad I did it.

Lorna

My belief is that soil microbes can decompose nearly everything. Radioactivity might be a problem for it, but pesticides will be rendered harmless. It is interesting to note that the successful approach to cleaning up oil spills is to spray with bacteria and/or what is essentially compost. The microbes digest the oil and get eaten by other microbes until eventually insects and higher predators take it away.

In other words, I agree with Virginian. I do disagree with his "phrasology." There are degrees of organic gardeners just like there are degrees of vegetarians, baptists, and other fringe beliefs 8-: No need to incite a riot to answer a question.

Albert, there are cotton fabrics out there made with fibre that did not come from GE plants, not many but they are there. Of larger concern should maybe be the place of manufacture. Because too many Americans have stopped purchasing Made in the USA products manufacturers are moving overseas putting fellow Americans out of work. People, including union members, that purchase products made elsewhere are aiding the collapse of the US economy.

The moral of the story is...

Wear hemp!