Have you tried lard, Jane? That was the old standby before hydrogenation I believe.

Jane - I use the generic brand shortening. What's bad about Crisco? Just curious.

I have used lard in pie crust and remember it being very good, but I'm not sure which recipe. Will have to do some checking.

Lard can be used, but I don't particularly like it in pie crusts, although my mother swore by it...not sure if she still does. Lard makes a very fine grained short crust...I never got it to flake, and I don't particularly like the flavor in a sweet item. I used to make my flour tortillas with lard because I don't mind the flavor in a savory...Lard also can be difficult to find in some markets. I think in one area of CT I lived in you only found it around Christmas...and suet...well, You really had to look to find that, even though all I was going to do was feed it to the birds.

One of the best pie crusts I ever had was a salad oil one...honestly! It was in a pie which was entered in an apple pie contest I did in New Haven for one of our historic houses...flaky, good flavored and really nice. I think she used a blender with it if I remember right...and she did put some butter in too I think... I think I like lard with pumpkin pie and mince pie, but those are so spicy I think they could almost pass as a savory rather than a sweet.

Shady, my neighbor still has red raspberries coming....Mine didn't make it through the summer (I'm trying to get a bed started, but it has been so dry here and I can't easily water this area, so it croaks.). I had boysenberries...only to discover that they don't taste too good...I'm going to try raspberries again next year.

This spring will be the third year I have had my asparagus planted...so I'll have great fun eating! I didn't harvest any this year even though I could have because I wanted the bed to establish.. :) These are Purple ones and Jersey Knights. Yum.

I always have a lb. of lard in my freezer. Granted I don't use it all that often, but it's still there. Some of my Chinese recipes call for lard, not for frying, but as part of the sauce. Kind of interesting they never taste or feel greasy.

I'm a scratch boy, mostly. Always with baking. I don't do cakes much, but cookies I've done big time, and pies, and quiches (mmmmm, shrimp quiche), and my grandmother's apple dumpling recipe, the most ungodly delicious scrumtacular (regular words won't do for this one) desert ever (having said that, I suppose I'll have to trot out the recipe here later-it's at home and I'm not).

Frozen pie crusts suck in my experience, and I've never understood why people wouldn't just buy the whole damn pie frozen if that's the direction in which they're going. Pie crust has maybe two and a half tricks to it. One does need to know how to cut shortening into flour. Ice water helps a great deal in keeping the fat from melting into the flour and making a less flaky crust. Don't overwork the dough. Of course watching someone whom one knows makes a good crust is helpful for getting the feel and consistency down and knowing when the amount of water is right (I learned from my mum).

OK, now I'm hungry, and there's no pie.

-O-

I'm eating pie even as I type this--yes, for breakfast. Got a problem with that? Got raspberries and apples (Northwest Greening) at the farmers' market yesterday and made two pies using the flour paste recipe. Again, they were cracking and falling apart and nearly impossible to get in the pan and on top, but as usual they turned out reeeeeeaaaaaally tastygood! I think I'll just tell myself when I see someone on TV make a crust that they can pick up and drape so easily that it may work for that but the end result is probably tough.

Orrin, I may need that apple dumpling recipe. I bought five of those monsters and only needed two for the pie!

Pie for breakfast? Nope, no problem at all. Last weekend when I made mine, I just kept eating and eating and eating. It was 3/4 gone by bedtime. Why am I not 400 lbs?

Your crust. Hmmmmmmmmm........
Did you chill it before rolling out? I don't and it always works fine. You do know the rolling pin trick don't you? Once you get it rolled out, you roll it up on the rolling pin and then unroll on top of your pie or pie plate. Works like a charm.

I made an apple cake today. It's very rainy outside today, so can't work in the garden. Bummer. (not) I also made chicken barley soup, and will be making lots and lots of veggies for dinner tonight. I think the corn season is coming to an end around here. I'm crushed.

40 clove garlic chicken tonight here...

Pie for breakfast is good and is common here in my family. Actually, it has very old roots. Pies were often eaten for breakfast in the 18th and 19th centuries...savory pies or fruit pies, no difference. It was an easy thing to have and convenient. Often left overs from other meals were diced up together and shoved in a pastry...voila, easy to carry meals.

And then there's pastys. :) Haven't had one in years and definitely a winter meal.

OK kids, here it comes, but beware: you may never want apple pie again after this one.

Mark luv, your apples sound ginourmous, so you might have to fiddle with them. I always use medium Granny Greens-it's an old recipe, so I stick with a traditional old apple.

The original recipe called for a whole peeled and cored apple in each dumpling. I think the modification is certainly an improvement (and I shudder at the thought, but the current version could be improved upon...I just can't bring myself to do it).

Keep in mind that you're basically making biscuit dough, nothing pastryish about it (and my last aside: do people still make biscuits from scratch? Do people still make biscuits?).

Apple Dumplings

1 1/2 c sugar
1 1/2 c water
1/4 t cinnamon
1/4 t nutmeg
3 T butter

2 c flour
2 t baking powder
1 t salt
2/3 c shortening
1/2 c milk

6 medium apples, peeled and quartered

For syrup, mix first 4 ingredients and bring to boiling. Remove from heat and add butter.

Mix dry ingredients and cut in shortening. Add milk all at once and stir just until flour is moistened. Form into ball and roll to 18 x 12 inch rectangle. Cut into 6 inch squares. Put 3 apple quarters in each square, sprinkle with sugar and cinnamon, dot with butter. Bring corners to center top and pinch together. Slice leftover apples in bottom of 12 x 7 or 8 inch baking dish, put dumplings on top of slices. Pour syrup over dumplings. Bake at 375 f degrees about 35 minutes or until apples are tender. If browning too soon, cover with foil for last of baking time.

This is straight from the recipe my mum sent me when I asked for it after moving to Tucson (reading it from the card in her writing); it assumes one has a clue or two about baking. Keep your dough rolling surface well floured.

Completely brilliant. I'll go so far as to say that if you don't like this dessert there's either something fundamentally wrong with you, or you made it wrong.

Enjoy. I expect to read reports.

-O-

OK, I'll commit to making them this weekend. It's going to rain the entire time, so this should be perfect. They sound really good. Last Christmas I made a AD recipe, but the dumplings were cooked in the sauce - kind of like soup dumplings are made. Everyone seemed to really like them, but I wasn't all that pleased. This recipe sounds much better.

I'm wondering if it's going to be beef roast time yet? I think I'm getting a hunger for that.
Kevin

That sounds really good, Orrin. I'll have to try those if we can ever get rid of the rest of this pie!

Yes, I do occasionally make real biscuits. One of my favorite things to do is make up a batch on Sunday morning adding sugar, cinnamon and raisins to the batter. The result is the love child of a biscuit and a cinnamon roll. Way yummy!

I have to admit, I couldn't make the dumplings today. It's just too blasted hot and humid. Where's that frost on the pumpkins thing? Instead I harvested the absolute last of the basil and made some pesto. Funny how basil just doesn't have the full basil taste at this time of year. Oh well, it will have to do.

No dumplings here, either. Instead I painted the front porch railings. Ugh. Perhaps I'll whip up a batch in the next couple of days since it's going to cool off.

Still getting some heirloom tomatoes at the farmers' market but like the basil, they don't have that really excellent flavor anymore.

Orrin, the apple dumplings were fantastic! The followed a meal of roast pork loin and brussels sprouts.

One technical question, though: when you bring the dough up around the apples do you just pinch together the top leaving gaps in the sides or do you pinch the edges together to seal it up more? I made a half batch of three dumplings trying three different approaches including these two options plus one where the whole package was picked up and squeezed into a ball. All seemed to work.

Yea! I'm glad you liked them (how could you not?).

We've always just pinched the corners together at the top, leaving gaps from the pinched point to the four corners of the dumplings (which allows the syrup to get inside as well as on top of and under the dumplings). As I said, the recipe could be improved upon (probably), so experimentation isn't a bad thing. I can't help wondering what a little fresh ginger root would bring, and/or perhaps a little freshly ground cloves (yeah, I regularly grind my own whole spices, it does make a difference-and I never use powdered ginger, the fresh stuff is soooooo much better, you should taste my gingerbread...).

-O-

I feel terrible I didn't make the dumplings too like I said I would. Just got caught up in orchid stuff today. When I do, I'll try the ginger and report back.

Hmmm....messing with the spices. I like the idea. I did use fresh-grated nutmeg. I wonder what cardamom would contribute?

Ever notice how much cheaper whole spices are in Middle Eastern grocery stores? I have a big bag of cardamom pods from our local Pakistani store. I think I paid around $2.50 for it. Kind of fun splitting the pods and grinding it myself. Sure smells nice.

I need to make my cardamom carrots.

OK, made the dumplings and they are just wonderful. Thanks Orrin for sharing. I did use some freshly, minced ginger (about 1 tea.) and liked it a lot. I think the next time I make them I'll increase it to 2 tea. If you really like that flavor you could probably use even more. Lord, fresh ginger is so different from the powder stuff! I was thinking it might be really good in my next pumpkin pie. Need to experiment some more.

Oh yes, I think it would work well to sprinkle a bit over the apples in each dumpling too. I just added it to the syrup.

K

I'm going to splash a shot of bourbon in the syrup next time I make them...

Fresh ginger is a must in pumpkin pie as far as I'm concerned. I haven't used the powdered stuff in years.

Not sure about the bourbon though, but I may break down and modify the dumplings (feels a bit like sacriledge, but what the hey).

-O-

Man, I totally missed this thread. Shady, a couple of questions.

1. Are you letting the pastry sit in the fridge for at least 45 mins before rolling out?

2. Are you adding a touch of vinegar to the dough? It makes rolling flaky dough easier. I use about 1-2 teasp of cider vinegar for a 9" tart (reduce water accordingly).

I'm a big fan of the Pie and Pastry Bible. Pages 5-8 are a must read for anyone who wants to know how the ingredients work together.

Has O revealed his gingerbread recipe yet?

Komi, I've tried both chilled and unchilled and it doesn't seem to make much difference. I haven't tried vinegar. Interesting. My friend who is a pie crust pro thinks I'm not putting in enough water. He's an Aunt Chick acolyte. Some day I'll work with him directly and get this figured out. For this week we've assigned pies to one of the moms and a sister since they're an easy thing to bring.

It isn't the chilling but rather the time you give the flour and water to do their melding thing. (Same deal as what happens with batter.) It goes in the fridge only because it would melt at room temp. For flaky pastry, leaving it for several hours (e.g. overnight) helps prevent it from falling apart while rolling and from shrinking a lot while baking.

Of course, if there's not enough water in it to begin with, all this is moot.

The vinegar supposedly relaxes the glutens and helps it roll out smoothly.

Like orchid growing, I haven't run tests but this is working for me. *insert Kevin's disclaimer language here*

I still wish they had assigned me wine instead of pie for Tday.

Isn't pie crust wonderful stuff? I doubt there's a recipe that will work for everyone. Too many variables in each home environment. It's just one of those things you have to feel a need to master and then practice.

In trying to get as much done ahead of time as possible, I made my dough yesterday and then froze it. It's been a while since I've done something like this, but I know it still should work. I just have to remember to take it out of the freezer the day before I want to bake the pie. If I remember correctly, after freezing dough is slightly more dry, so it needs to be almost at room temp to roll out properly.

I haven't frozen dough in ages, but that's what I remember too.

Additional variable: the flour.

I learned to combine flour and butter when I was about 11 and have always enjoyed working with flour - most other cooking I didn't touch until I had to (some 10 years later).

Maybe I'll give it a shot again and just try more time for "their melding thing" to happen. What really cheeses my grits is that for years i had no problem with crusts and then suddenly that ended. For the record I use King Arthur AP flour since that was recommended by the chef at the Italian cooking class we took.

So you don't like cheese in your grits?

I just don't like grits.

I've gone my entire life not knowing what grits really were. I just Googled them. Never had them, but I love cornbread. If I'm in the mood for something right from the oven, but don't want to bake the usual sweet stuff I bake cornbread.

And I get flack for not being American enough.

Grits = chunkier than ferina

Cornbread is brilliant stuff. I love it in a glass with milk. I'm allergic to cow's milk, but it's pretty good with goat's milk, too.

Here we are again. Talking about Food. I'm 85 years old and have never made a cake. That's the dragon womans duty.

Komi, what do you have to do to be a true American?

I'd love to visit again, but the thought of spending all those hours just getting past those guardians at the gates is just too daunting

Guardian. Looking at Arthurm with his ACME holiday travel bag.: What is the purpose of your visit?

Arthurm. I'm here to teach Americans how to cook.......

A dear friend recently moved to Alabama. She was planning on purposely calling it polenta at the right opportunity.

A - You can't be 85. From what I've heard 85 can be a great age, but you're not there yet. I've always pictured you at around 63-64 with a much younger attitude.

Stacy - Corn bread with lots and lots and lots of butter. The only way in my book. I don't drink milk anymore, but I do take calcium pills so my bones don't start breaking apart. Seems to be working since my bones are still where they should be.

I'm kind of bored today. Our T day won't be until Saturday, so right now I have beets baking in the oven. I really want to like beets, but I don't know if I do. I've had them so infrequently I can't remember. Now how do I get beet juice off my hands? I just tried peroxide and that kind of worked, but I still look diseased.

K

There is some trick to beets but I forget what. I do still remember that I don't like them.

I only just finished prebaking the pie. No doubt I will get the usual "where are you?" call before I am ready to go. I really should time this better but I had no choice. Really. Just thankful it's only one measly little pie I have to bake.

It occurs to me that I don't like pecans - not even in pie. This might explain my excitement level.

I did, however, find my 14" ceramic pie dish. What to bake in that? And also a 16" tube pan :)

What I want to know is what Stacy used in those quiches. Cow or goat's milk?

Komi, you are talking about beetroot, after vegemite one of the national foods of Australia. You might find cooked beets at some arty-farty restuarant but they usually come sliced in a can (tin) and then are put in salads or on hamburgers etc.
Just thinking with the three neurones i have left....we need something like Turkey day in Australia. It would help solve the usual problem of where to go at Christmas.

Talking about Arty-farty restuarants, going to one tonight to avoid wall to wall election coverage on TV. Love the description of the menu "Modern Australian" . Do they have "Modern American"

And grits sounds truely awful. It does need a name change.

Correction above. The tube pan is 16 US cups, not inches.

Beets may be the reason I haven't moved to Australia then. The best orchids in the world and ... [redacted for intl relations purposes]
Oh, and yes, there is such an thing as Modern American. "Thing" meaning "term" - not sure what the definition of it is.

"Grits" is a perfect word. Very descriptive. Yummy :)

"... The beet is the melancholy vegetable, the one most willing to suffer ... The beet is the murderer returned to the scene of the crime. The beet is what happens when the cherry finishes with the carrot. The beet is the ancient ancestor of the autumn moon, bearded, buried, all but fossilized; the dark green sails of the grounded moon-boat stitched with the veins of primordial plasma; the kite string that once connected the moon to the Earth now a muddy whisker drilling desperately for rubies ... A tale that begins with a beet will end with the devil. That is a risk we have to take."

The above is from Tom Robbins "Jitterbug Perfume," a pretty good book! I posted when I meant to preview. I also meant to say I do love beats. I like them roasted and sliced on a salad. I like them pickled. I really like Harvard beets. Any dish that leaves you half blind before you're even done cooking it has to be good. And the greens are good in salads.

I used half-and-half, which I think only comes in cow's milk. I didn't eat very many, so I was good.

When it comes to beets, the only way to eat them is pickled with cottage cheese.

I don't think I've ever seen a 14" pie pan.

I love beets. Especially ones fresh from the garden then roasted. Then there's Harvard Beets and pickled beets.

I've been craving roasted brussels sprouts, but neither husband nor dd like them...dd used to, but now she's so anti-mom she's sworn off lots of stuff she used to like.

Grits I learned to like when I was in Grad school in Billsburg, VA. I liked to go to the Chickahominy House to have a Virginian breakfast: eggs over easy, a slice of Virginia ham and grits, with a buttermilk biscuit. You could have redeye gravy, but I preferred to smush my eggs into the grits. Then there's egg/cheese/grits casserole.

Cornbread is best slathered with butter, or drizzled with honey. I rarely do both anymore, but I used to.

I brought rolls for the trip to MI to have Thanksgiving. I was up until 2:00 am on Thursday making them. I intended to make whole wheat "brown and serve" rolls, but I didn't hear the timer ding, and so in a panic, I baked them completely so I could taste test and make sure they were edible (they were, although some were big enough to be hamburger buns). For the young fry I made PIllsbury crescent rolls...as I know that dd and others prefer those. On the way home today she was munching on one and said "Oh, what is is that makes crescent rolls so yummy." "in a word," I said, "lots of fat."

I have to say that driving up to Hastings, MI on Thursday morning was wonderful. A typical Michigan Thanksgiving day--misc. flurries and the sun breaking through glowering clouds over golden and russet fields which had been lightly frosted with a diamond dust. Breathtaking.

Stacy - some of the wierdest food combos.... I had also never seen a 14" pie pan so had to get it. I've no idea what to use it for though - something that won't over cook (at the edges) and doesn't need to reach a particular hot temp (in the middle) might work. Something that can be served in ultra thin slices.... It's probably a perfect size to feed the dept at work.

"A tale that begins with a beet will end with the devil."

Love that! LOL. Must be some book.

Lis - sounds like a lovely drive. And yes, grits are everywhere around here. The Korean deli has it too.... I don't think I would have managed to learn to eat the stuff if I didn't live here.

Hey, I made O's quiche (finally) with leftover turkey, half and half of goat milk and heavy cream, 3 eggs and extra egg white, and mozaarrella as that's what I had in the fridge. Couldn't find the paprika which I think might have been good - just a touch of the sharper variety. Anyway, very yummy :)))) nice consistency without the overload of cream :) Thanks, O!

Just curious if anyone has used the recipes for quiche from Julias Mastering the Art of French Cooking? Those two volumes were the first cookbooks I ever owned, but I really haven't used them in years. I do remember the quiche recipes as being quite good.

Now that T Day is over, I'm working on Christmas dinner. I know the flesh portion of the meal is going to center around a couple of kinds of sausage from the sausage place in the small town where my folks live. I just have to make the rest of the meal. Was thinking a couple of kinds of quiche and some sort of salad with fruit. When I was there yesterday, I picked up some mango sausage. Can't wait to try it. The pineapple sausage from the same place was wonderful.

I used her quiche recipe in her other book as a base recipe for a while, but at some point I decided it was too heavy and too buttery.

I used the pie crust I had for O's quiche - made with cream cheese, butter and whole wheat pastry flour. Next time I'll want a lard crust, I think.

No snausages at our xmas, but it sounds interesting. I'm sure you'll come up with something tasty! Our xmas eve dinner has always been oyster "stew" which is really just a rich milk broth with oysters. I don't think we've ever had anything else except the addition of some dish my niece and nephew would eat when they were little. I think my father says it's a New England tradition. I love oysters.

Thanksgiving leftovers have so far appeared in a turkey sandwich, white turkey chili and last night was the full Thanksgiving II except for the mashed potatoes. They're going with lambchops tonight or tomorrow.

Shady, our Xmas eve dinner was Potato soup....my mom grew up in MT and MI having Oyster Stew for xmas eve...but my dad hates oysters, so it became potato soup (close enough). My husband wasn't impressed....so that is a thing of the past with us.

Hi, I'm back. I've been using my friend's computer when he's traveling (I take care of his cat and garden), and he's been back for awhile so access isn't quite as simple.

I had to grin when Komi asked about my gingerbread recipe. I just made some this afternoon (the house smells fabulous). I actually use a recipe from an old Fanny Farmer cookbook. It's very basic and old-fashioned, then I just amp it up by using the darkest molasses I can find and copious amounts of fresh grated ginger root (and fresh ground cloves and grated nutmeg). Not for the delicate palate-this is seriously spicy stuff.

It's pretty amazing how much fresh ginger can go into a dish. We made two pumpkin pies yesterday, and the pile of ginger I used almost scared me. They turned out just dandy, and the tiny bit of cloves I used bloomed overnight more than the pile of ginger did.

-O-

And somehow he manages to sign off without providing the tweaked recipe.