This is an extremely interesting discussion, which I came upon after reading California Melissa's comments about Hybrid Perpetuals in a thread I started and got started thinking about this topic. I want to add my comments about Mediterranean climate as I know it. Our garden is in the northern foothills of the Apennines in northern Italy. Our climate is probably pretty typical of that of a good deal of the country, a little warmer and dryer than in the Po Plain below us, chillier than on the coast. We grow temperate climate fruits, bulbs, and roses without difficulty; but Italian cypresses and pines, for example, thrive here, and olives do well in warmer areas once established. The Mediterranean climate as I know it, without achieving what most Americans would consider serious cold, offers chill hours in abundance. Most years in January and February we have week after week of temperatures in the thirties and low forties, with cold periods in the upper twenties. There have been warm winters in the twelve years I've lived in Italy, when it was possibly to go out in the garden and work comfortably for most of the winter, but I've never known the tulips to fail to bloom, or the plums, pears, and cherries to flower and fruit. A fact I like to quote to U.S. friends is that we live just south of the 45th Parallel, about the same latitude as Bangor, Maine. Many Americans don't realize how far north Europe is, including much of Italy. The climate is different here. We have a hot dry summer, but we also have a long winter and a pronounced spring and autumn, and although temperatures rarely fall much below 20F, winter is plenty chilly, in part because the days are so short and it's humid a good deal of that time. I agree with comments in this thread that the flowering of the once-blooming roses of European probably depends on a complex group of factors, and varies from variety to variety. But I do want to explain what cold is where I live, in an Italian environment of a common type. Melissa

lalalandwi, yes, I'm thinking of late transplant to promote mild winter damage. Edward, I agree it would be hard to control with nature but if it works then maybe experiments in a controlled environment like a freezer could result in refining a way to accelerate increase. In the case of my WC, I planted fairly shallow and it ended up that in that area of my garden it was frozen solid from 2 days before Thanksgiving until mid-March. We usually have more freeze-thaw action than that and of course it would be interesting to see if this method would work in the typical winter cycles. It makes me wonder if those using BAP for increase are not really damaging the crown to "near death" and that results in the increase that they report. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences with winter damage. Seems like it is not so rare to have them come back with lots of fans, however, sometimes the babies aren't strong enough to survive the damage either.

Yeah, Yeah and the icy grip of the Reaper mayest snatch any poor soul unawares and dispatch him to the Ferryman with nary a thought for what might have been into the black desolation of his eternal grave. Woe! Woe! I will continue to plant tropicals, veggies, and other stuff as I please thank you very much. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may is what I say. To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. -Greedy Bragger

They can stand below freezing temps, but won't grow the roots that they need if the temperature is consistently too cold. It's best if there aren't too many temperature swings, so I hope that they are shaded enough, either by the milk crates or by the house, and why insulation is good. (In the ground the soil provides the insulation.) If they do start getting shoots, that isn't necessarily a problem, as my garden bulbs often start sprouting and then get additional cold or snow dumped on them. They are fine once it finally gets warm enough for them to really grow and bloom.