Thoughts on Lesco vs KBG blend

16 years ago

First of all, thank you very much for your help. Although my wife was anti-nice lawn 18 months ago when we bought this house, you helped me change her mind... Well done!

The house we bought came with about 30,000 square feet of lawn/weeds. Last spring I let it come up and followed a standard care regiment just to see what we were starting with. By mid-July crab grass made up more than 65% of the lawn. Late summer I followed the regiment of killing the real bad parts, and (mow short, dethatch, aerate, seed, and water) over seeded. I over seeded with Lesco Park and Athletic Mix and this spring it came in beautifully. In the neighborhood we went from one of the worst lawns to one of the best (people are asking me how I did it and what landscaping company I use). Crab grass did make reappearance in July in any little piece of visible soil but overall itÂs less than 3% so I'm happy.

Anyway, I'm getting ready to overseed again this fall and will only spot kill if needed. The Park and Athletic Mix is a KBG/Fescue/rye blend. After a year it looks like the KBG has dominated and accounts for about 40-50% of the lawn, and I'd prefer to keep moving in that direction.

The lesco has worked well, but I was considering an overseeding of 100% kbg this year (i.e. Midnight II, Bedazzled, and Moonlight). What are your thoughts? Will it have that much of an impact, or should I just keep going on the same path?

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Comments (12)

rutgers1
16 years ago
There is a thread on this same exact topic started within the past 2 weeks. It was started by me, so look for my name. It got really long, and there were some good points made.

To condense it, though, here is what was said:
1) some people said "go for it'
2) most said that I wouldn't get the effect that I was looking for and, if I truly wanted a KBG lawn, I should just kill and start anew

I can't kill my lawn for various reasons (most importantly because my wife would kill ME), so I am going to just add some KBG to my overseeding this year even though most think it won't work. I am a glutton for punishment!
bestlawn
16 years ago
Here is the thread he refers to.
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ok, thanks Bill. What does everyone consider to be the pros and cons of overseeding with a good rye like the Lesco double eagle vs. a good KBG? From reading this forum here's the pros and cons in my mind, tell me if I'm wrong: KBG - pros: looks great, spreads out to fill in patches, repairs itself, long life. Cons: spreads out (will run into flower beds), takes about 20 days to germinate, more expensive than rye but you use less seed than rye. Perennial rye- Pros: looks good, quick to germinate, cheaper than KBG but need more seed than KBG. Cons: will not spread into flower beds, short -lived;would have to overseed every 3-5 years because it is so short lived? Maybe I should just go 80/20 KBG/rye? Anyone have any thoughts?
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>>KBG was less drought tolerant than TTTF. It is, very much less drought tolerant. KBG will show wilting long before TTTF will. KBG is more drought resistant than TTTF. It simply goes dormant, waiting for the rain to return. TTTF, left dry, will eventually just up and die. So will KBG, but 1/4" of water every 2 weeks is enough to keep the roots alive. Dormancy can continue for 12 weeks, but losses will start to mount. 8 is the usual maximum given, although I've seen it go a lot longer than that with that incidental watering every now and again. That having been said, my established KBG has been watered twice this year. So much of this is related to how you treat the grass and how you treat your soil. I've pushed mine to very high organic matter levels, which store water like nobody's business and won't let it go easily to evaporation (but a root can exert enough ionic pull to grab the water with no problems). I attached pictures of my lawn (follow the link to my blog as you can see the entire history if you wish to peruse back that far). It's hardly shabby, but this is not a good year. We've ping-ponged between bone dry and soaking wet. >>I water just enough to keep it alive. From March to May it was absolutely beautiful deep dark green but right now it's much lighter and even tan in some spots. Ditto. Keep in mind, I'm somewhat north of you, just a wee little bit. I'm not sure if KBG would be a good choice for North Carolina. >> I will need to overseed this fall so would overseeding KBG into the TTTF lawn be a good idea? Would this eventually lead to a full KBG lawn? I'm open to ideas. The two don't argue with each other directly, so that's not an issue. The KBG, if well-fed (we're talking 4 to 6 pounds of nitrogen per thousand square feet per year) will fill in holes as the TTTF dies out from age. That process isn't fast; there are certainly thirty year old TTTF tufts out there, I've seen some. Growth rates will differ, almost certainly, so that may drive you crazy. Color is going to differ, and the look of the grasses is very different as well. I never felt that tri-mix (fescue, rye, KBG) was a good choice for anybody, but they do that to get one grass to grow in an area, at least. Again, I'm not sure about KBG that far south. Lexington, from the map, feels like it should be OK-but-borderline, and your altitude (800 feet+) speaks well for putting in KBG. Current temperatures and overall average temperatures are fine for it, and KBG when established in good soil should stay green all winter (mine does up here). Rainfall levels are perfectly acceptable. By the way, you have rainfall moving in. Best grab an umbrella for later this evening. If you absolutely forced me to pick three modern cultivars, I'd go with Midnight, Prosperity, and Boutique. You can freely substitute Midnight II or Midnight Star for Midnight, they're all close enough. Those are three extremely dark cultivars, so consider that before you do this. When mature, they'll have that thundery dark green look that my lawn has in spring and fall (all grasses lighten in summer).. Also, tolerance for weather their first year isn't as good as it will be later on (true of any grass), so watering the first summer will be required. I never recommend dormancy the first year if it can be avoided, and if it can't, keep it short. The grass doesn't have the root depth and resources it will later on. Here is a link that might be useful: My Blog, With Photos
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I'm in NJ as well and when my house was completed my builder seeded grass with rye/fescue/kbg mix. It didnt fill in that well and I liked the way KBG looked so in the front of my house I kept reseeding with just KBG mixes and the back of my house with rye/fescue/kbg mix. So I think I was exactly in the same boat as you. My front looks great and it was a good thing that it was originally seeded with the mix because there is one area in the back that gets a lot of shade and KBG didnt take there but fescue did and it looks great. The rest where there is more sun fades from fescue to mostly KBG but the transformation from one to the other is unnoticable from the street. My neighbor across the street got his house built after mine and my front yard looks better then his $2000 sod. Now my backyard was originally seeded with rye/fescue/kbg mix and reseded with that as I'm still trying to get it as thick as my front yard. It looks fine but nowhere near as good as my front yard. It also doesnt require the amount of maintenance the front does and it seems to be more resistant to kid abuse. I guess what I'm trying to say its all relative to your situation and what you are trying to do. I wanted my front to be mostly KBG as it looks better but it took forever to establish and it takes more work to maintain. Not a problem for me as a like working on it. The existing mix that was seeded might not be a bad base as it will cover any places that are shaded where kbg wont grow (I dont know your yard so thats really up to you) but it wont be as uniform as the pictures posted by pure KBG owners. Tall fescue stands out in KBG and you will definitely notice it. Now my backyard didnt have to be nice but more drought and abuse resistant. Thats exactly what it is plus it doesnt require as much work. So it all worked out well for me and I got what I wanted. I have nice lawn in the front and decent but resistant and low maintenance lawn in the back. Everyones situation is different and you have to take it all with a grain of salt and decide on your own. I dont know what your lawn looks like now, how much time and money you want to spend and what kind of final quality are you looking for. Either way good luck and I hope it turns out good.
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rutgers1
16 years ago
Here is the other thread:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lawns/msg0713230020288.html?38

Here is a link that might be useful: direct link
rutgers1
16 years ago
Woops...Sorry bestlawn, I didn't see your post and I proceeded to repost the same link.
billhill
16 years ago
Over-seeding with that blend would definitely improve your lawn. 30,000 Sq. ft. would be a huge kill and renovate project. My suggestion would be to over-seed with that blend. Fertilize it. Keep it moist if you can. Many would agree that proper cultural practices in lawn maintenance is more important than seed types. Water deep and infrequently, Mow long, fertilize properly (mostly in the fall). Kill your weeds in the spring.
andedon
Original Author
16 years ago
I'll follow your lead rutgers1 and we'll delay the wifes anger 1 more year. :-) Thanks
rutgers1
16 years ago
andedon....Which seed are you going to overseed with then?

After hedging for weeks since, like you my lawn doesn't live up to MY expectations but still looks very good to the average person walking by, I am going to overseed with a rye/fescue/KBG mix, but I am also adding some extra KBG to it.

My fear about overseeding with straight KBG is that I still have some spots where the turf is not as thick, as well as some small bare spots (a few inches wide, usually not visible since the tall grass fills it in). Having seen people's lawns who overseeded with different types of grass, you can easily tell, as there are "patches" of different grass. It looks horrible; I definitely don't want that. Therefore, my "plan" is to continue the uniformity by continuing with the rye/fescue/KBG mix so any bare spot fills in to look like the rest of the lawn while slowly introducing some more KBG. My goal is to overseed with more KBG each year, slowly raising the percentage of KBG in the lawn.

Some of the KBG purists here would probably laugh if they read my plan, but considering the heat I would get into with my wife if I killed the lawn and started over, it is the best I can do. I really am intrigued by some of the KBG varieties and wish I could go in that direction, but it isn't possible right now.
andedon
Original Author
16 years ago
If you are looking for a mix (rye/fescue/kbg), the Lesco Park and Athletic has done wonderfully. Even mowing high it stands up pretty good to an active family.

For KBG, I'm likely to go with Midnight/Moonlight/Bedazzled.

The lawn stood up pretty good to the heat this year. Started to turn in some of the thinner spots, I raised the blade to 3.25" and started watering and it bounced back nicely. Most areas didn't need any water at all. Irrigation system is next years invesment...
billhill
16 years ago
I canÂt quote the source or link to the post, but a very knowledgeable member here has made a very convincing arguments that rye grass will out compete and dominate a lawn of KBG / Rye / Fescue. Leave the rye out of any mixture you plant. KBG and fine fescue for shade works well. For the original poster, the "Magnificent three is a great blend of KBG.
turf_toes
16 years ago
Rutgers1,

There may be a middle solution to rounding up or just overseeding.

Since you are looking to go to Lescos anyway...

They sell a product called Corsair. It will kill Rye grass and Tall Fescue (including Turf-type tall fescue.) But it will not harm Kentucky Bluegrass.

You could apply Corsair and kill the other grasses. Whatever bluegrass was in your lawn will survive and you can overseed it with more bluegrass.

It's fairly expensive stuff. $120. But the amount you get treats several acres.
billhill
16 years ago
The question would be: What cultivar of KBG would be in Rutgers lawn ? Some unimproved ditch weed KBG ? If you are going to kill with Corsair, You might as well go all the way with round up. The lawn would look terrible for 4 weeks or so, then it would begin to green up.
turf_toes
16 years ago
That is true. But depending on how much KBG is in the lawn, it might not be so bad. Maybe not even as bad as a simple overseed where you scalp the lawn down to the crowns. (THAT looks bad too)

I admit it. I'm a KBG fanatic. I just think the whateverblend of KBG he has plus the midnight would look better than the whateverblend of KBG, Plus the Tall Fescue he has and Plus the Rye grass he has now (plus the midnight).

It certainly wouldn't look as good as a total renovation. But to my eye, it would probably be an inprovement over a mix.

Thoughts on Lesco vs KBG blend

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Thoughts on Lesco vs KBG blend

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