Hi ajsmama: I have yet to try making hard cider yet but recall that 1st, sweet cider sugars are converted to alcohol then a different microorganism (acetobacter spp.?)converts the alcohol to acetic acid (vinegar). Definitely do a web search on making both hard cider and vinegar, lot's of info out there that can help you.

Just a guess but, if the microorganisms for both conversions are present at the start and the acetobacter survives the 1st conversion then you might go past the alcohol and straight to vinegar and not notice it. Some hard cider producers kill the sweet cider microorganisms at the beginning and add in the one's they want in order to control the process.

Good luck!

If it smells like vinegar, it probably is vinegar. You have to be real careful when making wine or cider. There are yeasts floating in the air, some make wine and some make vinegar. It's always best to keep the lid on. You can buy a cheap air lock from a wine making shop for less than a $5 dollar bill.

http://www.homebrewit.com/dry-wine-making-yeast.php

Here is a link that might be useful: Homebrewit

Thanks - *finding* a winemaking shop around here might be hard. Oh well, it was an experiment. Must have had some bad bugs get in one time when I was burping it (or else they were in the cider to begin with). Maybe I'll just let it finish turning into whatever it's going to turn into, taste it around New Year's.

Should I siphon it off into a sterilized bottle(s) now though? I have lots of quart canning jars.

Not a good plan to seal it in "mason" jars if it's still fermenting at all, as the pressure can break them dangerously- even real beer or champagne bottles can be blown if the brews are bottled too soon.

Just to add to Michael's and John's thoughts, which I think are right on.

if you want hard cider you definitely need to exclude oxygen. An air lock is the easiest way. Even then running with wild yeasts is a crap shoot. Sometimes fantastic, sometimes a definite vinegar bite. never bottle until fermentation complete...preferably wait until the mixture settles...clarity generaly can be used as a signal that the product is stable.

I wasn't going to *seal* the mason jars, figured I'd just loosely cap them (so if pressure got too great the cider would just spray out from under the lid/ring, not explode the jar, maybe even use Saran instead of a lid). I was just wondering if it was better to siphon off the (cloudy) liquid into a sterile container at this point.

DH and I tasted it tonight, after fermenting all day with the apple juice and sugar I added this AM. Not vinegar - but a little bit of a sharp smell and a taste faintly sweet (b/c of the newly-added sugar I'm sure), a little fruity (b/c of the new apple juice?), and a little something we're not sure of. But not vinegar. It *could* be getting hard - big foamy bubbles on top, tiny bubbles still rising from the bottom.

There's a beer and winemaking supply place about 20 miles away - not worth the 40+ mile round trip at this point for 3 quarts of something that *might* be on its way to vinegar. Maybe next year, if we decide to try this on purpose (with more than 1 gallon?). But what's a good way to improvise an air lock on either a gallon plastic jug or a mason jar to see what this turns into? Oh, I also have a couple of old whiskey bottles (one with a cork, other a screw cap). This would be a secondary fermentation vessel, not final bottling. Thanks.

Oh, BTW rob, will this end up really clear and still when it's ready to bottle? I thought hard cider was still a little cloudy and fizzy?

Order online some campden tablets, an airlock or two and you'll be making good stuff. Campden will take away the vinegar problem. But, you can put a balloon over a gallon jug with a little tiny pin hole for an airlock. Bottle only when 100% clear, never cloudy.

ajsmama. You asked how to make an 'air lock'?
All it takes is a cork to plug the vessel, drill a hole to take a short piece of plastic pipe. Seal the pipe where it enters the cork with caulking. Then bend the pipe into a small jar of water, tie it to the neck of the vessel.
This will start to bubble from the fermentation gasses, when it quiets down, no more bubbles, then it should be siphoned off into a clean bottle, leaving the sediment behind.

As mentioned above, a good indicator of the cider being "done" is it going clear. At this point it will be flat and very "dry"... the yeast ate up all the sugar, and all the CO2 has escaped through the air lock. To achieve the "fizziness", you add a little more sugar to each bottle before capping (approx 2TBS per gallon). I've had success dissolving the sugar in a bit of fresh apple juice as well as plain old water. The small amount of sugar will be eaten up by the remaining yeast, but the waste (CO2) wont have any place to go, resulting in a lightly carbonated beverage. IMO, a sparkling cider is way better than a flat, 'farmhouse' cider.... BTW, it must not have been too bad if you drank almost half of it for a 'test'! Also, did you add any yeast or make a wild yeast starter? A mass infusion of the correct yeast surely takes away much of the risk of something goin wrong.

Thanks - I'll try the tubing (have some left over from putting water to fridge so must be OK for potable water). Should I just put the cork in the original plastic jug and leave the cider in that, or siphon it off into clean (sterile?) container(s) to finish fermenting?

I didn't add any yeast or make a starter - it just started fermenting in the 40-degree fridge b4 we even opened it (it was a couple-3 weeks after we bought it). At that point it was like apple soda, that's when I decided to move it to the (slightly) warmer basement and see if it turned hard - I also needed room in the fridge. I won't have any room til after Tgiving, so don't want to "bottle" (can?) it til after that, I don't know if it's going to clarify in the next week anyway.

But when it is "done", should I just siphon it off into sterilized mason jars (add a little sugar for carbonation), use a plastic screw-top lid and store it in the fridge, or pasteurize/can (seal) it to be shelf-stable? Does pasteurizing it after it's fermented destroy the alcohol or the taste? I've only pasteurized apple juice (then put it in fridge) and pickles (canned) before.

If you ferment it correctly under a bubbler, then the end product would be like wine. So you could cork it, or seal it off then store it without refrigeration/pasteurization, it can't go bad.
When making wine, patience is a virtue. You must allow the full fermentation, otherwise you'll get a foul tasting product.

When growing up here on the farm in the 1930s we made about 5 gallons of apple cider every year. We had our own crusher and press and poured the apple juice into a five gallon jug like they use for bottled water. We kept the jug corked under the sink drainboard not enclosed in those days. Every few days the cork would blow out, We were drinking it of course so the quantity was being reduced as it was getting more of a tang to it. When it got so we no longer enjoyed drinking it, we added it to our vinegar barrel. We had an old oak barrel like they use for wine, out in the storage shed supported about two feet off the floor. It had a wooden faucet to drain off the vinegar as we needed it. During the time needed for my growing up, we never filled the barrel or ran out of vinegar. Dad said the barrel contained a "mother of vinegar". Al

beeman - that makes sense. I've been reading about making "cider" at Uof Ga site, they mention hard cider but not how long it takes or what to do with it when it's done. They also mentioned pastuerization, but that must be for "sweet cider" aka juice. I'll just sterilize the empty whiskey bottles (probably have a wine bottle next week too) and siphon it off into it/them when it's done. Any idea how long that should take, given that it was pressed mid-Oct, started fermenting by late Oct, but is still fermenting now due to addition of juice and sugar yesterday?

calistoga - yes, the mother is a slimy starter type thing, I'm sure the barrel had a good one! I haven't noticed one forming in my jug yet so maybe I'll get some good "wine" instead of vinegar.

Thanks for all the help - if this turns out drinkable, we may buy some equipment/supplies, make 5 gallons or so next year (have to figure out whether it's more cost-effective to buy apples or cider, we don't grow enough apples)! Can you make it from pasteurized cider if you add wine yeast?

I think the cork/tubing/water bottle method in the jug you got it in already should work just fine. When the bubbles slow significantly, you can siphon the cider off into another sterilized vessel (secondary fermenter). The cider (under air lock again) can age in this jug (for days to weeks to months). The first batch this year went clear two weeks into secondary. At that point, bottle/can/jar with the little bit of sugar if you want fizz. Sit out in a warm area for a day or two to get the fermentation started up again, stick in the fridge, then enjoy. For what its worth, Youtube videos on the subject are numerous. Take them with several grains of salt, but some are quite informative.
Beeman is dead on, the end product will be just like apple wine, flat if you like it that way, carbonated if you like it that way.
Al: The idea of a perpetual barrel of apple vinegar is totally fascinating. I havent goofed up a batch of cider yet, and I just cant bring myself to let a perfectly good jug of booze to turn to vinegar. That said, homemade vinegar would be a wonderful culinary treat for the winter.

Ajmama, I was typing when your last post came up. I think your primary may take a few days yet, due to the extra sugar you added. Pasteurizing after fermentation will cook off all the alcohol and I'm not even sure what to call whats left over. My first few batches were made with pasteurized sweet cider. I added a dry white wine yeast from the local homebrew store. The end product did have a white wine-like quality to it. The batch I have going now (5gallons) is unpast sweet cider (straight from the press) with a traditional cider/mead starter culture. Forgot to mention that I added about 1/2 pound of honey per gallon during primary fermentation to boost sugar level, and thus alcohol level. The cider has quite a kick, but the bottle ageing seems to have mellowed the 'bite'. The only real equipment i bought included glass jugs, a siphon, corks and airlocks. I found an antique bottle press during a basement cleanup a few years back... works like a champ. Screwtop plastic bottles work just fine too. Again, for what its worth, the oldtimer at the orchard insured me that "it wouldnt work" if you used plastic, or neglected to add raisins. Both not true in my experience, but food for thought none the less. Oh yea... if you're going to try again next year/later this year, get some sanitizer. An oxiclean type product called "One Step no rinse cleanser" is a good one. Also, one of my homebrew nut buddies makes a cider every year with apple juice from Costco that always a hit at his yearly fall festival. He barrels and carbonates it as with the rest of his beers. It has come to go by the name "Karl's Panty-dropper"!

>>

I sure wish I had that recipe back in my college days. Just a memory, now....

to the PO: wine yeast is inferior IMHO when making cider. Lager yeast is better and ale yeast is best (broadly speaking, there are many of them). Wine yeast will make it too dry, ale leaves a little fruit flavor in there. It is unlikely that your cider will stay drinkable for long, the juice is made with table apples which are inferior for cider. The best table apples for cider are Russet types, but also Northern Spy makes good cider.

When i was making cider (I am now 100% wine) I would buy the unpasteurized juice, add the yeast of choice, but also add flavorings such as oak chips and honey since I would get at best 10% russet apples in the juice and it was always quite thin. It was because of the inferior juice that I moved to wine.

If it turns into vinegar, it will be good vinegar worth using in the kitchen. From your description, you must have had fermentation with a kombucha-like bacterial mix, so it may in fact turn into vinegar eventually. As said before, enjoy it while it tastes good, it may not age. Chill it, it will go well with a number of fall dishes.

Kombucha... I was just starting to get a taste for it, when good old PA pulled it off the shelves in the health food stores due to the 'alcohol content'. Pretty sure the "State Stores" wont carry it, and the six pack shops wont for sure. Guess I gotta figure out how to make my own, no place left to buy it.

glib - OK, if I buy yeast next year I'll look for ale yeast. Just wondering - how do you know what kind of apples my cider was made from? Are you assuming all sweet cider is made from "table apples"? I bought this from Ag students at local fair, not grocery store (have to pasteurize all grocery store "cider" anyway). I'd have to call and ask what type(s) of apples they use. The cup of juice I made myself and added the other day was made from my dad's apples, which I think are crab apples (he doesn't maintain the tree, so they could be table apples, just small, they were green but starting to turn red late Oct). That juice/apples was/were pretty tart, but not overpoweringly sour.

Everybody - Still lots of tiny bubbles in the jug, though not in the glass I poured to taste. DH says it's pretty good but I'm looking for more kick. May add more sugar today - what do you think? I know it won't be drinkable by New Year's if I do that though, I was kind of thinking of bottling it in the next couple of weeks and opening a bottle at New Year's instead of champagne (not that we ever *buy* champagne). In fact, it might not be drinkable by then either way, so should I add sugar and plan on it for *next* New Year's (maybe the last 750ml bottle might last til then LOL)?

I want to plant Northern Spy (had another thread on here about planting from seed - was told not good idea). I consider Spies the perfect all-round apple - for baking and eating out of hand, and now I learn for cider too! I have to see if any of the trees on my uncle's land are still bearing - they've been neglected for decades.

I was just assuming that you bought commercial juice. That is generally full of Red Delicious. The one I buy has clearly some Russet, at least until January when they probably run out.

And your post reminded me of the most important addition to cider from commercial apples: crabapples. Too sour alone, but they add tannins and acids. 10% is noticeable, and 30% is more than enough, though I have tasted dozens of crabapples and they range quite widely in bitterness, tartness, and aromas. You can blend them, dump them in the carboy with the juice, then rack (move liquid to clean carboy, leaving residue behind) after it has cleared substantially. Another racking just before bottling in April, and you are on your way. Cider is the easiest to make of alcoholic beverages. But I take that back: if you have enough of the cider apples in there, the cider will age.

I too am a big fan of Northern Spy. November to May, it is the only fruit I eat, and my family too eats mostly Northerns during that period. But this year, while warm, had a late freeze, and Northerns will run out around Xmas time. I don't know what I will do next. Get scurvy probably (not really, my hoop houses are full of greens, but still).

Just checking back - I've got the secondaries (3 quart canning jars) sterilizing now, tubing is washed (didn't wantg to boil it and have it melt) and ready to siphon. Do I add sugar to the secondaries?

The cup of juice I added the other day was from my dad's crabapples.

Spies - bought 1/2 peck this year for $8.50!!! The orchard said they only got 5 boxes, and no Baldwins. I did get 1/2 bushel of mixed (Delicious, Macs, but some Garnet Spy and some other Spy mix, name escapes me now) at a different place for only $7.50. Don't know anybody around here who grows Russets. We're going to have to grow our own (Winesap sounds good too).

up to you whether you add sugar. Apples have a high Brix, comparable to grapes, but less. Do you want cider like wine or like beer( alcohol wise)? If you want sparkling, add about one ounce sugar (any sugar) per gallon at bottling time.

I want sparkling, so will add sugar when I bottle. I used the 3 quarts and also a 3-cup jar I had so I have room for fermentation in the secondaries. Just didn't know if I was supposed to add sugar at this stage to ferment again. I want it alcoholic, don't know how much alcohol beer has comapred to wine, but somewhere in there, don't want it like brandy or the hard liquors. Tastes - something - maybe alcoholic, not really vinegar, but just "sharp" right now, do I add sugar, or just wait for the stuff to clarify, then bottle it? Or maybe it's going to be vinegar after all?

Just be extremely cautious when adding 'sugar' of any kind when bottling. It can cause added fermentation, blowing corks and exploding glass can be a real danger.
I speak from experience.....Don't do it.
If you want to 'sweeten' a wine or fermented product, then visit a brew your own store and buy the right stuff.

I read online that you can sweeten it with Splenda, it won't ferment. But what if you want a tiny bit of carbonation?

It's really flat now, doesn't look too clear but I can see stuff starting to settle at the bottom so I guess it's starting to clarify.

Woohoo! All the jars are about half clear. Hope I can bottle around Xmas, will it be any good to drink by then or will it have to age in the bottle a while?

Since you are aiming for a sparkling cider, and you still have Live yeast and sugar left in the cider -- it will keep fermenting.... and it will keep generating PRESSURE!

DO NOT BOTTLE INTO ANY JARS THAT AREN'T MADE TO HOLD PRESSURE! THEY WILL EXPLODE!

This is especially true if you try to pasteurize it....

Mason Jars are a No-No.. Wine bottles are a No-No... Miscellaneous glass bottles are a No-No... None of these are made to hold the sort of pressure the yeast will generate and they will explode... and they will shower you with sharp glass!

You need to use either Beer bottles or Champagne bottles if you want to bottle a "Sparkling" beverage for long term storage.... Plastic soda bottles work quite well for short term storage.

On the alcohol question - you got alcohol the 1st time it fermented.... Most fruit stand cider will ferment out to about 6% alcohol without any help from you... If it goes right, it won't have a sharp alcohol flavor.... but it's in there...

Unfortunately, as you get closer and closer to the alcohol tolerance of your yeast by adding more and more sugar - it will start to generate weird, off flavors that taste like paint thinner, nail polish remover, and rocket fuel.... These are called "Fusel alcohols" because they generally taste "Hot"....

Once you start generating this stuff -- there is nothing you can do but to let it age for a long time to mellow out.

My advice - stop while you are ahead. Don't add any more sugar.

If you want it a bit sweet - put it in the fridge to slow down fermentation and then siphon off the clear liquid off the muck in the bottom. Then, put it back in the fridge till you drink it. Don't be greedy here... Yeast doesn't taste particularly good....

Most sweet ciders and especially those fermented on their wild yeasts are best when they are young... Drink and enjoy.

Thanks

Actually, I've had them in mason jars (left lots of room on top, got 3 quarts into 3 quart jars and a 24 oz jar) since I racked them off on the 21st. Lots of yeast (fine sediment layer?) and fluffy stuff settled to the bottom now, no bubbles rising in the secondaries at all (didn't see any even right after I racked off), so I'm not sure how much yeast is alive. Very small amount of tiny surface bubbles, and a couple of tiny floaty fluffy things at the surface on each jar, but over half the liquid is crystal clear (can read through it). One jar doesn't look as clear on top as others, so may have to pitch that.

I have a champagne-type bottle with a cork, from some Lambic we had - as well as plastic soda bottles, if those are better than whiskey bottles.

So, can I add 1/8 tsp or so of sugar to each 750ml bottle, just to get some bubbles?

I haven't added sugar since the primary fermentation, that was less than 3/4C of sugar for about 3 quarts (plus 1C added) apple juice/cider. Have I made "fusel" already?

I make sparkling cider and sparkling fruit wines all the time.
your cider is not ready to bottle until it is completely clear. If You use a champagne bottle it will hold the pressure but you will need a new champagne closure and wire for it. then when you bottle add your sugar to the all your cider before bottling so you can stir it in. also rack it into a clean container before adding the sugar and leave all the sediment behind in your jars.

Also, bottle carbing with the wild yeast is kinda dicey - since you have already added sugar several times, you don't know what your Alcohol levels are - and you may be close to bumping against the alcohol tolerance of the yeast....

How does it taste? If it tastes sweet and is clearing - you have likely hit the alcohol tolerance of your yeast... so adding more sugar will likely just make it more sweet... Unfortunately, it doesn't kill *ALL* the yeast - Some live yeast will be left... so it's also quite unstable and could re-start fermentation when the weather warms back up....

Really - let it clear and then drink it.... Sounds like pretty tasty stuff.... just pour your glasses carefully to avoid the yeast muck at the bottom of the bottle...

Since you completely wild fermented - there is an off chance that the slimey haze on top of the 1 jar is a vinegar infection starting. It is fairly common in apples... Open it up and take a sniff... If it is smelling vinegary - my advice is to remove that lid and replace it with a piece of cheese cloth, paper towel, or old tee-shirt and let it make you some vinegar rather than dumping it....

Thanks