So, you're saying fescue doesn't recover well in fall? It continues to look like crap?

The fescue recovers in the fall because I overseed. But so will KBG and it's a superior turf. My point is: If I have to renovate and overseed every year anyway, why not do it with KBG?

Sorry about that, Tarheel. I undestood your question but got caught up. I was blown away by what you were saying after being slammed a couple years ago about the wonders of fescue. Have to say I still don't understand the need for renovation each year if it does recover. Or does it not recover?

Well, if you don't mind it being dormant in summer, then why not? Sounds like you would prefer the superior turf (LOL had to throw that one in), but in all fairness I have to say there are fescues that rival kbg in appearance. I'd be sure to make it as heat tolerant a kbg blend as possible. Of course, you'll have the question of what to do with the fescue?

I dunno man why not?
If Bermuda is green 4 months of the year and bent grass is green 8 months of the year and the two start quickly from seed then why not just rehab twice a year and have a lush green carpet? Or why not just keep spreading rye grass seed out there once a month? Why don't the folks in the midwest do a summer overseed with warm season grass?
I dunno/
I just dunno.

I don't get it man. Why?

Tell me why not. Somebody enlighten me plllease!

I actually do have a comment though. KBG is a pain in the ahs because it takes a month to germinate and the seed is so small it washes away in heavy rains. And it's expensive. But you may as well use something else. Fine fescue has a lot of the same problems but it's cheaper. I'm experimenting with colonial bent and perennial rye right now. Both of those are pretty cheap and should germinate fast.

bestlawn,

Fescue is good most of the year, but, as you know, it is still a cool season grass. The fescue that survives the heat recovers, but some thinning of the turf does occur. If I didn't overseed, then the thin areas would turn into bare spots after another season of summer heat. So, it is totally necessary to overseed every year.

I'm not worried too much about the fescue that's already there. It blends in well with the KBG. And of course I'll be asking you to recommend to me a heat tolerant KBG blend. I assume Midnight/Midnight II would be included.

Do the math for me, quircky. I'm not being funny, I don't know the prices of the fescues. What I'd like is seeding rates by comparison and then the bottom line. I know the fescues cost less per pound, but seeding rates are higher with kbg being 2-4/1000, tttf being 6-8/1000 normally, and ff being 8-10 - paying less and needing/using more. Does it still work out that bluegrass is more expensive at an average of $3.50 per pound? I know SummitSeed is charging much higher prices, but they're the only ones I've seen so far. Williams, Pawnee Buttes, Arkansas Valley are the only ones I have checked, but that doesn't mean they won't raise prices before fall, especially with the expected shortages.

ooohhh! Okay, I see what you mean, Tarheel. Yep, fescue doesn't come back once it's gone after exceeding its ceiling of tolerance, so I see what you mean by renovation. The thing about kbg is I really don't think you'll have that problem with renovation being necessary because you don't lose it really. That self-preservation mechanism sets in and kbg checks out on you, but it's reliable though and will return when moisture and temps are available and favorable. Once you cultivate a good and dense stand, I'd love for you to tell us how it restores and behaves in fall, so take us along with you - should you decide to do this, that is. Honestly, I expect rave reviews.

Wanna tell you now while it's on my mind that even dormant bluegrass wants moisture. While you don't have to worry about deep watering or a schedule, be sure to give it a sprinkle a couple times a week during droughty periods. That's not nearly enough to break dormancy but it sure will appreciate it. Will be glad to help as best I can with suggestions, and yep one of the M&Ms will be in it.

I suspect if you can baby the grass for the first year so that it survives it's first summer then the roots will be deep enough the second year to take it a little better.

Obviously that's not to say that it's not going to go dormant but it might not go dormant as soon or for as long.

Bestlawn you have a good point about the seed rates and prices. I regularly make that point about bentgrass being $14 a lb but requiring ever so little to cover an area. Unfortunately mathematics never was my strong subject so I don't know that I'm qualified to figure out what is cheaper. One thing is certain though. Fescue germinates much faster with fewer headaches and less water. That alone is the reason I would opt to have that. What germinates even faster is bent and rye so why not just use those species since they look great, germinate rapidly and adaptable to soil conditions.

I did the math twice, once at the lower seeding rates and once at the higher. I used Bestlawn's price of $3.50 per pound of KBG (so way not what I paid for the Bedazzled, Midnight II, etc. mix). The price per pound listed is what it should be if it were completely competitive with KBG.

At the high seeding rate:

KBG, 4 lbs/K sq ft -- $3.50 per pound -- $14 per K sq ft
TTTF, 8/K -- $1.75/lb -- $14 per K sq ft
FF, 10/K -- $1.40/lb -- $14 per K sq ft

At the low seeding rate:
KBG, 2/K, $3.50/lb -- $7 per K sq ft
TTTF, 4/K, $1.75/lb -- $7 per K sq ft
FF, 8/K, $0.88/lb -- $7 per K sq ft

The price of TTTF has to be half that of KBG to be competitive.

The price of FF has to be 40% (high seeding rate) or 25% (low rate) that of KBG to be competitive.

LOL it's about the same for Bent too!

Thanx so much for that, Morpheus. People look at the prices and automatically thing KBG costs more. I like Quirky's logic, too, in that it costs more in water use to sow KBG.

Composing a blend for Jarvinen in the "Rolls Royce" thread, these are the prices I got from Pawnee Buttes a couple weeks ago..........
Award $3.55/lb
Moonlight $3.40/lb
Bedazzled $3.40/lb

Altogether $3.45/lb
These are sod quality prices with 20-30 cents added to each for the ensured weed-free seeds.

Tell me how much you paid and where you purchased them. I know SummitSeed has always been more than almost everyone else. I spoke too soon earlier and learned today Arkansas Valley has also doubled prices like SummitSeed. UGH!

Arkansas Valley has also doubled prices like SummitSeed

I feel better. I was closer to $8 per pound including the shipping, although they did mix them for me. I also see the prices were for 50# bags, so for the mix I wanted I would have needed to buy 400#. I needed 30 for one fall seeding, one March seeding (in the hopes that a good 20% will survive the following summer).

Interesting post. I live in south central PA, right where the Transition Zone starts. When I re-did my lawn last fall, I was floating between Bluegrass and Tall Fescue. I went with Bluegrass. The only perceived advantages of Tall Fescue over Bluegrass are lower maintenance and drought tolerance (due to deep rooting). Since I don't mind maintenance and don't have very deep topsoil, I went with KBG (Midnight II, Blue Velvet, Nu Destiny, America). I planted it in August last year and already this year it appears to be pretty drought/heat tolerant. We've had several days in the mid to high 80's without rain and the grass is hanging on pretty well with minor irrigation. That's pretty exciting for me considering that last year at this time my contractor-planted ryegrass lawn was toast by now!! Just plan to patient with Bluegrass as it grows into maturity as it is real sluggish. Even now as of June 1, there are spots where the turf is growing but hasn't grown tall enough to mow.

Why not KBG? Well, it isn't as heat or drought tolerant and will go dormant faster. It also is a pain to germinate and is very slow to establish. It takes several weeks to germinate and then is painfully slow to really get going. Fescue will be up in a week and start to look like actual grass in another 2 weeks. Since you wold be doing this every year, that is the difference between 3 weeks of rehab compared to 6 weeks or so.

In areas where KBG and fescue both grow well, KBG wins hands down. In transition areas, fescue starts looking much better - especially if you are willing to water once a week to keep it green in summer.

Good thoughts billl. Solid reasoning. I'll definitely have some bluegrass. I just haven't decided if it will be mixed with fescue or not.

Do you overseed fescue every year?

Mine seems to hold up fine in the part shade areas, but I end up overseeding the full sun areas yearly. That may be partly because those parts are in the front and get cars, bikes, kids etc romping across.