Wow, who recommended tall fescue in the Upper Peninsula? Just curious.

Just curious again, but did this same person suggest preparing to plant right now?

NTEP is always a good place to start when looking for seed. Checkout their pages for Michigan, HERE. The only caveat is that the only test station is in East Lansing...that's probably a ways from you. Still though, it's a start.

Mayb eyou can do Colonial or Velvet Bentgrass

Expect the rolls royce to also be very high maintenance.

Rolls Royce may be a little overboard, but we've got a small section that we would like to have a "nice" thick lawn. Most of our landscaping will be groundcover and brick pavers.

And I realize that now is hardly the best time to seed, but we'll have to deal with the weeds later and re-seed in the fall.

>>
Wow, who recommended tall fescue in the Upper Peninsula? Just curious.
Mallory,

I'm willing to bet it was some lawncare company guy. In my experience, they ALWAYS suggest tall fescue. I think they start with the assumption that most people won't properly care for the lawn so they suggest TTTF thinking that it can perform better with lower care (not that I agree with that premise).

It's funny because even in my area it is almost a knee-jerk response. But I would argue that even TTTF requires basic watering and fertilization. Especially in Michigan, if a person wanted an awesome lawn and was willing to do what it takes to get that lawn, then the elite KBGs are really the way to go.

I can't seem to find it now, but I recently read a university research paper that argued that KBG is actually tougher than TTTF in drought conditions because the bluegrass handles dormancy better than the Tall Fescue (which the paper claims tends to die and create bald spots...)

Why would he choose a super high maintenance bentgrass when their are better choices that are also lower maintenance?

LOL, TarHeel.
Quirky, I get dizzy tired just thinking about Bentgrass. But, boy, is it gargeous or what???

Very good points, TurfToes. A.J. gave me new respect for tall fescue, and I know there are cultivars that rival bluegrass in appearance. But, in the Upper Peninsula??? I think you're right. I even kinda think it's a marketing scheme, for which I really can't blame them. I don't doubt tall fescue deserves more respect than it has gotten in northern areas, so they've been trying to push it. But, in the Upper Peninsula??? (Okay, I'll get over it) Snow mold and other winter damage are often easy to overcome, but I don't condone asking for trouble. And, funny you should mention that article. I was told much the same by one of the turfgrass producers a couple years ago.

Jarvinen, give me a few and I'll try to work out a great bluegrass blend for you. Just need to know if the area is shady, partly shady, or full sun? One thing I want you to know is the best performers are often difficult to find in the same place, which means you will likely have to order from two different retailers. Hope that's okay.

The title says Rolls Royce, that's why. The title does not ask about the Toyota corolla of grass seed.

Jarvinen, I would suggest that you plant ANNUAL RYE right now. Its the stuff hunting lodges plant to feed and attract dear. It dies out over winter. In the fall, late august,cut it short, overseed heavily with whatever grass sead you choose. Fertilize and water it real good every day and you should have a great lawn next spring. Annual rye will look pretty good this year too. It germinates and grows pretty fast. Mixtures of KBG, fine fescues and perennial rye grow well up north. Good luck with your new lawn.

Quirky, you know you were right to suggest bentgrass. I laughed at TarHeel cuz he was mocking you. I don't really think he was saying it was a bad suggestion. But heeeeyyyyy!!! I recent bluegrass being compared to a Corolla! LOL

oops, that should have resent and not recent.

Jarvinen,

Don't even think about tall fescue up there where Winter doesn't kid. If the snow mold doesn't make a mess of it, then that grass will die from outright cold temperatures.

The simple answer is a blend of top-notch KBG varieties ("cultivars" to us lawn geeks) if your yard is mostly sunny. If you have a fair amount of shade, mix in some fine fescue with the KBG.

Actually, creeping bentgrass could work well up there if you are willing to irrigate during dry summer periods. This is particularly true if you are on one of those sandy jack pine plains areas that litter our northwoods. The bentgrass will require more maintenance than KBG, so try to gauge your commitment before you take that plunge!

A.J.

I'm with you Bestlawn and will be anxiously waiting your bluegrass blend. I'll be dreaming of our beautiful lawn all night.

Currently, we have a new house surrounded by sandy fill. Surrounding the fill are fairly large maples, poplars, and balsam firs. Most of the area that we are planning for lawn has early morning sun, followed by shade from noon to 3, then sun late in the afternoon. So you'll need to decipher the type of grass that will be a champ.

Also, we're planning on groundcover in many areas. Would it be wise to just plant an annual grass along with the sparse groundcover this summer and let the groundcover take over next year? I just don't want areas of bare dirt while waiting for our groundcover to take hold.

Thanks again. I'll be waiting for your perfect lawn recipe.

Yep, Bills suggestion was a great one. When time to seed your permanent lawn in fall, you can decide then how to take care of the annual or if it's even necessary. You may want to kill it off or just mow it low and keep going.

I'm skerrred of shade hahaha, being that kbg is not the ideal lawn in very shady areas. It's best to let A.J. suggest a fine fescue/kbg mix. You'll like it.

go for the colonial bent.

unless you want usga green quality bent grass it is easy to maintain. it grows in shade, sun, soggy areas, clay. thats been my experience.

there is no single best lawn seed...a mixture provides most durability.

I didn't suggest creeping bent as I don't think the cold tolerance is there. I'd like to know what woodycresit is using though and I've asked before but don't recall getting an answer. Was it BT or colonial? And I know you have a little strip of velvet.

Good lord! I nope nobody reading this runs out and plants a bentgrass lawn without thinking it through. It obviously looks great on the golf course, but it is a whole different level of involvement than most homeowners are thinking about when they think of a "nice" lawn.

The fine fescue might work. I'm currently growing Florentine Creeping red fescue in semi-shade and appears to be thriving. I had hoped it would be more of a dense grass but it's not really what I had bargained for. It's too thin bladed but the color is excellent. Very dark green.

Being a Grass Growing Greenhorn (my attempt at lawn humor), I'm a little confused as to the "mixes." Would I have a mix of all varieties and spread evenly everywhere? Or do I use different types in different locations?

And where exactly can I purchase this seed? I've located the following which is a mix of KBG, fine fescue, and perrenial ryegrass. What are your thoughts on this: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=253173-303-253173&lpage=none

And what about the areas I plan on using groundcover? Could I plant annual ryegrass to cover the area in the meantime while the groundcover takes hold?

Thanks again.

Jarvinen, That mixture should grow well in your area if you plant and nurture it. This however is not the "Rolls Royce" of grass seed. It will not look like the thick dark green lawns of a few commercial buildings or the front lawn of a high dollar country club. That being said, this mixture is very good for a durable lawn and with good cultural practices can look very very nice. To get the country club look, you will need a mixture of elite KBG cultivars and fine fescue cultivrs. You have plenty of time to decide. Keep reading here and educate yourself on what's available and develope a plan for your fall planting.

Not knowing if A.J. will look in this thread again, I began a thread in hopes of drawing his attention here once more. He just might not peep back on the forum for a few days, but you can always email him from his member page. I know he doesn't mind. He's the best person to suggest specific varieties to mix for your growing conditions.

Like Bill Hill says, your choice is not really the best available. Frankly, the best cannot be purchased in big box stores and not even local garden centers. That's why I mentioned earlier you may have to purchase from more than one location. At the time, I was referring to a kbg blend, of course, but still applies to other species for the most part. Go ahead and email A.J. He'll be able to guide you toward the better performing fine fescues, the kbg cultivar to mix with them, and where to purchase. This will likely be an online retailer.

When grass is mixed together........
Different species of grass is called a mix
such as fine fescue and kbg together

The same species of grass is called a blend
such as different varieties of kbg together

Understanding the above is similar to thinking about different car makers. Each maker is a brand (species) that produces many different models (varieties and cultivars). The models all have their own name and are unique unto themselves.

From the way you describe your growing conditions, I do not think you need different grasses in different areas. All the same grass all around will serve you well, even if that same grass consists of a mix of different types. Because A.J. will likely suggest a mix with both fine fescues and bluegrass then yes, you will spread that mixture all around, and make sure they are very well mixed together before doing so.

"And what about the areas I plan on using groundcover? Could I plant annual ryegrass to cover the area in the meantime while the groundcover takes hold?"

I'm afraid I don't understand the question and didn't understand the first time you asked. Could you tell LOL? You can plant annual ryegrass anywhere there is presently no grass in effort to prevent soil erosion and weeds if possible. Then plant your permanent groundcover in the fall. But, if the groundcover you're planning is in season and can be planted right now, then do that instead. My confusion comes when you ask "while the groundcover takes hold." Please help me with what you mean by that. If you plant your groundcover (grass or whatever), there is no meantime. Your immediate effort is to promote its healthy growth. Any "meantime" involved is related only to when there is no groundcover at all and you're waiting for opportune time to plant permanent groundcover (grass or whatever). Tell me if I answered or not.

i fully understand that bent grass is considered very high maintenance, but in my experience it is not any different from any other grass. Unless as i stated above, you are looking for usga golf green quality lawn. Once the bent becomes established it just needs regular mowing and fertilizing, just like any other grass. some of the bent i look after is mowed at 2.5" or higher...it does get a bit thatchy at times, but core aeration looks after that.

in alot of areas i have simply overseeded the existing grass with bent and as i suggested above a 'mix' of grasses provides the most durability.

THe bent i use is highland colonial. It is thriving in all areas.
i did experiment with a strip of velvet bent, but so far it has not performed as well as the highland.

By "groundcover" I was referring to plants such as pachysandra or periwinkle that we plan on growing to cover our drainfield area. We don't really want grass there and are going for a more natural look. But it will take years to spread and cover and in the meantime, rather than having bare dirt and scattered weeds, I thought we might be able to throw some annual rye down until the other groundcover "takes hold." Am I wrong in thinking that the annual rye will die out over the winter and by next year our larger groundover can occupy these areas?

Okay, I really don't want to complicate or confuse you because I am confused, but let me see if I can answer.

If you are suggesting you won't be planting your desired cover crop for quite some time, then yes, it's a good idea to plant the annual rye in those areas until you're able to plant your desired crop. But, if you're planning to sow both, your desired ground cover and annual rye because you think the periwinkle and such will take a long time to grow or "take hold," please do not do that. You do not want to plant annual ryegrass along with any other cover crop. It is known to have an allelopathic affect on some growing plants. That doesn't mean all other plants, but it has not been tested for all, so you don't know what it will affect and what it won't affect. That means annual rye can prevent your other crop from growing by either restraining their growth or by slowing it down. Even if your desired plants are not affected in this manner, annual ryegrass germinates and grows very quickly, much faster than almost anything else. Therefore, the end result will be the same as if in the allelopathic chemistry being that your desired crop cannot grow into the same spots that the rye quickly occupies - still stunting the growing and spreading ability of your desired crop. Get me? So whatever and whenever you are going to plant your desired crop, be sure to eradicate the rye before planting anything - grass or whatever.

And speaking of growing and spreading, periwinkle is a very vigorous plant that spreads over a wide area in not much time. Now, I am not at all familiar with it or with pachysandra, so it would behoove you learn as much about planting and when to plant as possible, just like you're learning about growing your desired lawn grass. I don't doubt there are forums to help with those to tell you such information as germination rates, seedling vigor, time of full establishments, and so on.

If, however, you are not planning to plant the others for quite some time, then feel comfortable in knowing annual rye will serve your needs in the meantime. Is that what you mean by "it will take years" or do you think that's how long it will take periwinkle or whatever to establish? I rather doubt the latter, but it's in your best interest to know for sure. I don't know what kind of plants those are, so I can't direct right to the correct forum but here is the list of forums. Good luck and please tell me if answered this time. LOL

Jarvinen, I inquired at another forum about the periwinkle. One of the ladies so kindly offered to help. Her name is Sue and moniker is chemocurl. She suggested you email her directly and not through GardenWeb. You can get her email address here. I wasn't sure if you needed information about it, but just in case.....

Also, I was shocked at A.J.'s response, so I again read your reply to me but this time more carefully. He's right that you can easily grow bluegrass so below, I composed a really good blend for you. Three or so hours of shade is not nearly so bad and I don't know why I was alarmed. I read it initially to be more than that. Please pardon.

Selected for shade tolerance, turf quality, and overall disease protection
Award $3.55/lb
Moonlight $3.40/lb
Bedazzled $3.40/lb

Altogether $3.45/lb

You can purchase from.....
Pawnee Buttes Seed pawneebuttesseed.com
800-782-5947 ask for Glenn
Be sure to tell him you want sod-quality.

Because this supplier sells in 50# quantities, there is a surcharge for breaking the 50# bags. If your purchase is....
25 pounds = $2.00 surcharge
10 pounds = $4.00 surcharge

Don't forget to add shipping charges.

I think the surcharge is worth it since you'd have to pay additional shipping if purchasing from two different suppliers. I cannot find all three in one location.

Equal parts of each is fine, and they will mix them together for you for a fee of 5 cents per pound. Seeding rate is 3 pounds per 1000sq. ft. It's okay if you sow a little more than that, say 4 lbs/1000, but do not let him talk you into 5 lbs/1000. That is too much and will not help but can actually work against you.

Thank you very much Bestlawn. You've answered my questions well. I appreciate your help finding information about the periwinkle. Thanks.

Bestlawn, I am a fan of your KBG blends, and in fact am planning to do Midnight, Moonlight, and Bedazzled in the fall for my front yard.

I'm also planning the back yard, (which is somewhat shady) for possibly next year and I was wondering if you think that Award, Moonlight, Brilliant might be a better shade blend than Award, Moonlight, Bedazzled, since Brilliant scored much better than Bedazzled in shade trials?

I just ask because if so, jarvinen may want to go that route, and if not, I may want to change my plan.

Thanks,
Brian

Sorry I didn't question, Brian. I was looking through for another thread and happened to open this one.

My preference for somewhat shady areas is Bedazzled over Brilliance for its resistance to powdery mildew. Comparing shade tolerance is a matter of performance, meaning it's expected to be better able to hold up and still thrive under those conditions. You get that with Moonlight and Award. However, it doesn't mean the stand can resist disease that is inevitable under those conditions, which is powdery mildew, and Award especially is susceptible to it. So, the addition of Bedazzled is to help protect the stand under shade conditions. See the purpose of blending?

Overseeding regularly - every 2-3 years - will be necessary to maintain diversity.

Bestlawn, thanks for the response. I definately share the concern about powdery mildew, since the shady area has had some this spring.

That said, we must be looking at different data. I'm seeing Brilliant with a 9.0 on powdery mildew and Bedazzled with an 8.0. http://www.ntep.org/data/kb00/kb00_06-11f/kb0006ft05.txt

I go to http://www.ntep.org/previous.htm,
select "Ky. Bluegrass - High Input",
select "2001-05 Data - Final Report",
select "Turfgrass Quality",
select "Quality and Other Data Under Shade: Carbondale, IL"

This seemed like a good data set for me since I am in IL, the shade in Carbondale is listed as "natural", and it's a summary of 5 years of data, which should eliminate any flukes.

Where were you getting your data on powdery mildew resistance of Brilliant and Bedazzled? I want to make sure I'm using good data.

Thanks, Brian

Bestlawn, I think my question got buried at the bottom of the thread again. Bringing it back from the grave. Not sure if this will start a new thread or continue the old one though...

Geeze, Brian. How do I keep missing you?

Really good work you did there finding those test results. I'm so glad you did because I looked high and low, well apparently not high and low enough LOL. The only test results for powdery mildew I have been able to find are from the 2005 Rutger's Proceedings, but neither Brilliant nor Bedazzled were tested. My only data came from Bedazzled's tech sheet that boasts about its powdery mildew resistance. Because the America types are inherently good at pm resistance, I took the tech sheet to mean even better than Brilliant and other America types. Clearly, your NTEP ratings are more reliable. Thanx for the link.

Good. Then I'll stick with my current plan for Award, Brilliant, and Moonlight for my partial shade back yard unless I find some reason to refine the formula with between now and then :)

(I may add some fine fescues to the mix if I get paranoid about the shade.)