With fertilization, yes. You're going to want to buy some Milorganite, if you're in Indiana. I'd put a synthetic on in the spring, with those big numbers, because the newer, elite stuff is both a 'heavy feeder' and is new. But during the year, I'd be adding Milorganite (even if it's a lighter dose) every thirty days, to keep it maximized, keep it growing and spreading. Just exactly like the sod farm down the road from you does.

In addition, I'd divide the yard into quadrants, if you can stand (or camoflage: it doesn't all have to be in the front yard, some can be on the side, or out back) the difference in appearance: I'd mow quadrant A at 3/4", mow quadrant B at 1-1.5 inches, quadrant C at 2-2.5 inches, etc, and keep it at that height all year, in each quadrant. By the end of the season, you'll know what mowing height is optimal, or you might find that it doesn't make a difference. But I believe that the new grass will perform differently at different times of the year, and that mowing height could indeed make a difference, at some time of the year or other. You might even telephone to that sod farm, and ask them what they do: they know how to start with zip in April, and have a dark green lush carpet of grass, all filled in, and ready for sale in August. They do it every year.

For what it's worth, I'm doing exactly what you're doing, this year. I reseeded a mix of the elites last fall, and part of my lawn was a total kill, and part of my lawn is an overseed. I'll be overseeding the overseed area again, this spring, just because I have some seed left over. The total kill area seems to have filled in nicely, but this is its first full season. So let's keep in touch, during the year, and compare notes.

Im going to disagree. The shorter you cut the more work you'll have just to maintain. When you cut short you deprive the grass of leaf surface for photosynthesis and thus the energy it'll need to spread. If you have a variety that is an aggressive spreader relative to a cheaper variety its going to spread more quickly if you leave it a little longer. Cutting your grass short is no different than pulling leaves off a landscape plant and expecting it to thrive. Just because a grass will tolerate a low cut doesn't make it the best choice.

What are the old grasses?

My fear is that mowing low will allow sunlight in to nurture weed seedlings if you get any. Most any grass can be mowed low so I'm not sure you will gain anything over the other grasses by mowing low. The biggest hazard is if you get any bentgrass in your lawn. It absolutely thrives when mowed low and will choke out most everything even when mowed down to 1/16 inch.

That new Galaxy grass is weaker than your old stuff, so mowing low means more watering, more maintenance, and a heck of a lot more weeding. Give it time and it'll catch up, but it has to grow roots and mature a bit.

I'm assuming an off-the-shelf KBG, Rye, Fescue mix or any one or two of the three that's a "typical" grass.

With weaker roots, low moving means you'll have to mow more, water more, and generally coddle it a bit. That's not an issue on a complete renovation, but means that your old grass (with the stronger roots) is getting the same treatment.

It's going to be really difficult to shift it out that way.

It's likely that the new KBG will very slowly outcompete the older grasses slowly anyway, except perhaps for your older KBG, if you mow it normally and give it standard care.

But that's measured in years and won't be perfect. I think you'll have to consign yourself to a mixed lawn from here on out.

The biggest hazard is if you get any bentgrass in your lawn. It absolutely thrives when mowed low and will choke out most everything even when mowed down to 1/16 inch.

*GASP* I can't believe you are ripping on bentgrass. I redid my whole backyard to bentgrass last fall and I think its a LOVELY grass to have as a home yard. It's like taking the living room carpet outside!!!

Bentgrass is absolutely beautiful as a monoculture turf and for the reasons I mentioned. And as reported often here by woodycrest, it also works extremely well mixed with clover. However, if you want fescue or bluegrass, it is considered to be the most noxious weed in the world. It is especially a concern when you are reseeding because the bentgrass seed is the size of a dust particle and can easily contaminate a bag of grass seed. Once it gets established, you are going to have a bentgrass lawn.

What you're asking is what I normally recommend to people who overseed older varieties with newer ones. Yes, it will stress the older grass plants for the reasons Decklap mentioned but won't stress the cultivars in your Galaxy Blend. What he explains applies to the older varieties, not these newer ones that were bred for low mowing heights.

(Sorry Morpheus)
You won't have to mow more often because the Galaxy Blend is not only low-growing types but also slow-growing types. I should insert that poses a problem with the old grass and is the reason I don't recommend overseeding older lawns with the newer varieties. The old grass will grow faster, thereby forcing you to mow strictly for its own sake to maintain uniformity. But, you do want to mow it to keep in check and prevent photosynthesis as Decklap is talking about. The Galaxy will photosynthesize. The old grass won't - thus stressing the old grass.

They won't require more maintenance but in fact require less water because they were bred, particularly Midnight and Moonlight, for fewer water needs. I'm not sure you can find a more drought-tolerant bluegrass than Midnight or more heat tolerance than the Galaxy Blend. This will also work in your favor to achieve your desired result. The old grass is likely much more thirsty than the new, so depriving it of moisture wull also serve to stress it.

Lastly, they require no more fertilizer than the recommended 3-4 pounds of nitrogen per year. Do not over fertilize or weak roots is exactly what you'll get.

As Dchall mentioned, my only concern with mowing low is exposing the soil to sunlight. Weed seeds are on the soil surface. Tall grass shade them from the sun. But at the same time, you will have a tight knit sod of bluegrass to help crowd the weeds. If stressing the original lawn is your only concern, then yes it can be done over time. It's up to you, but do understand it will not happen quickly.

Most importantly, I do not recommend maintaining your lawn at half an inch. Just because it says it can be mowed at half an inch doesn't mean it should be maintained there. It shouldn't. Keep it at 1.5-2 inches if you want it to be short. Normally, I'd suggest maintaining at 2.5 inches, but that wouldn't prove as beneficial in your particular effort.

Thanks everyone. My lawn was whatever the contractor threw down when my house was built. By the end of last year I could see the Galaxy blend really taking over and I hope to get rid of most of the other stuff this year.

bestlawn,

I'd like to hear you talk about this variety some more. In my experience, which isn't as nearly as broad as yours with different varieties, cool season grasses (bentgrass excluded) don't do as well when cut short as compared to longer cuts. Shorter cuts can be sustained but with much higher inputs of product and time. If this variety is different then this is a good opportunity for me to learn something I didn't know.

Galaxy is a blend of bluegrasses composed of Midnight (or Midnight II), Moonlight, and Prosperity produced by Turf-Seed, Inc. (owned by Scotts for the last 2 years). Each of the cultivars were bred for low/slow vertical top growth (commonly referred to as dwarf growth habit) and to better manage heat intensity. The result is the grass plants are still able to sufficiently manufacture food and thus balance nitrogen added by fertilizer and require less moisture. The reason, as you know, is that older varieties need more leaf blade to manufacture food. The manufacturing is done in the green area of the plant down to about the middle portion. Further down is the yellow area, where no photosynthesis takes place. The longer the leaf blade, the more green area there is. However, these newer varieties produce more green area and very little yellow portion.

His Galaxy Blend happens to be the topic of our discussion, but it isn't only these three varieties. For many years, much research and development has concentrated on turfgrass breeding in the areas of mowing height, heat & drought tolerance, shade tolerance, and disease resistance. Generally, yours is the response I give to someone if there is no indication they seeded/overseeded in the past several years. If they do indicate fairly recent seeding efforts, then it behooves me to ascertain what varieties were planted or at least learn where the seeds were purchased from.

Full Disclosure....

I don't do synthetic chemicals at all, not a judgment just a preference.

Its been my opinion that shorter cuts can't be maintained without synthetic ferts and herbicides. Do you have any experience with this blend being maintained without synthetics??

Either way thanks for the knowledge. My point of view is more inclined to the soil. Let me improve your soil and even a crappy seed will flourish. That typically holds me in good steed but I do miss out on the kind of developments you're talking about. Thanks again

hhhmmm A few thoughts on what you stated.

1. The organic community on the board will beg to differ, I'm sure, sharing the opinion that feeding the soil is more important than trying to feed the grass.

2. I have difficulty with the theory since grass plants unable to properly photosynthesize will struggle to balance nitrogen.

3. Why form the opinion if you haven't tried it on the low/slow growing varieties? I can't imagine the source of nutirents making a difference, especially since they are gorwn and tested with synthetic fertilizer and not with organic sources of fertilizer.

4. I'm afraid you kind of contradicted yourself with Let me improve your soil and even a crappy seed will flourish. I believe that holds true despite the type of grass that is planted if properly maintained according to type/variety.

5. Cannot disagree with exposing the soil increases the need for herbicide. Though I was sure to mentioned it, I don't really think this poster will have a problem with a tightly-knit sod. Not as much of a problem anyway.

oops I meant to answer your question in that I have no experience with mowing low and using organic fertilizer. I overseeded with similar cultivars and used organic fertilizer, but I maintained a mowing height of 3 inches.

"My question is if I keep the lawn mowed short will the elite grass out compete the grass that likes to be left longer and take over the entire yard?"

Yes, it will. But it will take several seasons for the good grass to "take over". Actually the good grass wont 'take over', but it will be more prevalent over time.

any grass will thrive in conditions that suit it.

decklap,

Bestlawn is correct. The newer KBG varieties have been bred to tolerate low cuts (as low as 1-inch). Most older cultivars of KBG need to be cut at least 2.5-to-3-inches tall.

Taking into account the higher cutting requirements of say, Tall Fescue, it is certainly a reasonable expectation that the newer cultivars that have been bred to tolerate these lower cuts will EVENTUALLY dominate.

I say eventually because it will probably be several years before this happens.

The older grasses will weaken because they need more leaf area for the photosynthesis process. If the OP keeps cutting the grass shot for an extended period of time, the newer cultivars win.

I, for one, am in the kill the old lawn first camp. It was a lot of work starting my lawn from scratch. But I think it ends up as less work in the long run than having to mow twice a week to keep the older grass under control.

My current Midnight II, Moonlight and Bedazzled KBG front yard is cut every 7-10 days during the summer. My backyard which is a monostand of Midnight II seems to grow even slower.

(I know, I know. There are all sorts of reasons NOT to do a monostand and I certainly don't suggest it for most people. But I wanted to experiment a bit with the back yard.)

By way of comparison, my old unimproved lawn required mowing at least twice a week.

Hey guys,

Thanks for the insight.

Let me ask one more question. Is it reasonable to assume that most/some/all/none?? of the sod sold nowadays is seeded from the varieties you're speaking of?? I gotta say that even on sod installations I see shorter cuts with more weed/disease pressure than I think they'd otherwise experience if they'd suffer another 1/2 of length.

I don't know what weed/disease pressure means.
They are weed infested and diseased?
They have the potential for weeds and disease?
Because they're cut at their recommended mowing height?
Disease because of the mowing height?
I don't know what you're saying.
And find it difficult to believe sod farms are selling/installing infected and infested sod.

Im just asking if any of you guys know if sod farms are using the variety of seed you're telling me about because I don't typically see the kind of performance you're describing in sod installs so Im wondering if they aren't using a different kind of seed. Thats all.

"Disease from mowing height"

Shorter=greater heat stress=more watering=more incidence of pathogenic fungus. Higher=less heat stress=less water=fewer fungal issues.

Decklap,

The answer is... it depends.

Some sod is from relatively cheap seed. Other sod is high-end stuff. I've seen sod farms that sell Midnight KBG. Though in my area, that is a relative rarity.

In my experience, most of the sod farms around my area are using relatively cheap Turf-type Tall Fescue. Your best bet is to ask what cultivars or grass types they are using in their sod.

That is the only way you are going to have an answer. Before really becoming a lawn nut, I thought Sod was the be all and end all of grass installations. It had to be great if it was sod. I've discovered since then that is not really true.

Sod, just like cars, come in cheap varieties and expensive ones. While a Yugo and a BMW both drive on the same highways, the driving experience isn't exactly the same thing.

My development is relatively new. I have a neighbor who had sod installed (tall fescue) when his house was built. There was no denying that his yard looked better than most in the first year after construction.

But I hope I am not bragging too much when I say that his sod-installed yard looks like a pale imitation of a lawn compared to the KBG (Midnight, Moonlight and Bedazzled) lawn that I grew from seed.

Decklap,

Beyond what I just wrote in my last response. I think we are a bit off topic now.

The OP wanted to know if cutting the new cultivars (which have been bred to tolerate lower cuts) will help them to eventually dominate the older, unimproved varieties in his yard.

The answer to that is yes. Whether or not it will cause higher maintainence in the way of more water or resources is really off point. I would suggest you go to the ntep site or just google for information on KBG cultivars like Midnight. You'll find a wealth of information on this topic.

I think your points are probably true, if you are buying your grass seed off the shelf from Home Depot or the like. But most of the folks here, including the original poster have purchased seeds directly from the seedfarms that produce the improved cultivars or wholesalers.

The relevant part of the OP:
My question is if I keep the lawn mowed short will the elite grass out compete the grass that likes to be left longer and take over the entire yard?

" I thought Sod was the be all and end all of grass installations. It had to be great if it was sod. I've discovered since then that is not really true."

Im very much in agreement with that. I think in most cases sod is the weaker choice long term but your average home owner has a hard time buying into that when they can get an "insta-yard" in a few hours. Im using the sod installs as a point of comparative reference not because I think its better but because that's where Im most likely to have seen these KBG varieties perform.

One other quick point.....

I guess I'd be inclined to say that any cultural practice that increases the need for inputs and time increases the likelihood that the property owner will not see the benefits they're hoping for, regardless of the type of grass they're using. Doesn't make it impossible of course but you can increase your level of difficulty substantially so I think that is part of the overall equation.

I see shorter cuts with more weed/disease pressure than I think they'd otherwise experience if they'd suffer another 1/2 of length.

Shorter=greater heat stress=more watering=more incidence of pathogenic fungus. Higher=less heat stress=less water=fewer fungal issues.

I guess I'd be inclined to say that any cultural practice that increases the need for inputs and time increases the likelihood that the property owner will not see the benefits they're hoping for, regardless of the type of grass they're using.

My list of questions were not quests for answers to what I already know. And, a response that does not apply to our sub-topic of discussion was not the answer to my question. Your every subsequent reply is as if you were not told at all. You are not communicating with the "average homeowner" because s/he is not informed. You are talking people who possess x amount of understanding in the areas of turfgrass and management. I see nothing I or we can say will convince you, but I really would prefer not being treated as if my imagination were the source of my contribution to this forum. Disbelieve if you wish when information is readily available just as we find it and experiment to learn and experience it.

No false disclaimers to follow if you please.

Why the fuss bestlawn?? Im not disbelieving anything. Just trying to get information on a topic others know more about than me. Don't know what I did to rub you the wrong way but be sure it was unintended. That said Im as free to share my opinions/experiences same as anyone else and will continue to.

You ask and then dispute or ignore the answers by applying the same ideology to new information. So, what are you absorbing if you keep rejecting it? I am accustomed to acknowledgment when someone gets "information on a topic others know more about" or confession of disbelief. Naturally, I suspect insincerity and question your apparent desire for attention since you keep repeating the same position with different words.

Whatever best.....

Don't think Im disputing anything, just asking. If that's a problem disengage.

Decklap, I remember the transition from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. My cousin, who built computers (each component from scratch), wrote software, and was proficient in several computer languages since the 70s, had a really hard time with Windows 95. While he was accustomed to being able to make a computer yield to his will, he was suddenly faced with infinitely more power (not comparing to current technology). I tried to make him see we aren't going back to 3.1 or anything remotely similar, so he might as well accept the advantages of new technology and profit from them. It's all about progression.

Someone brought to my attention you might have a hard time wrapping these new and different concepts around your head, and that's what reminds me of my cousin. I can see you are a seasoned fellow with a lot to offer. What was customary still is in most respects. After all, how many people are tearing out their lawns and replacing them with new varieties? I still hope to impress upon you the notion that there are substantial improvements that render some of the ideals obsolete and adapting in those instances is essential, if not required. It might not be all that big a deal and who knows, you may never encounter a lawn that requires you to flip the script. We're not talking about a new operating system, after all, but a matrix of many.

Sorry if I put you off or was too quick to judge. Ever now and then we get trolls visit the forum, so I guess I can be hasty in thinking I spotted one.

My cousin, who built computers (each component from scratch), wrote software, and was proficient in several computer languages since the 70s, had a really hard time with Windows 95.

Ha! Good analogy and I remember that well. For about a week I was pounding my fist on the desk. Occasionally I'd mutter things like, "Submit! Submit to my will!"

bestlawn,
im glad to see you apologized. :) You were out of line with your previous comments.

i like your analogy too :)

But i fail to see how lawn care ideals can become obsolete. Newer isnt necessarily better.
New or old variety, tried and true best cultural practices always yields healthy grass. :)
lawn care is simple. mow, fertilize, water, sunshine.

So what does everyone think, should I cut my grass short? ;o)

yes!!

yes (though I am less enthusiastic than woody -- hence no exclamations).

Fair enough best.

I appreciate it, Decklap.

Woody, it was in reference to what we were discussing, particularly lower mowing heights for new/improved varieties that were bred for it. I wasn't trying suggest the basics of lawncare are affected in any way.