I like the crop and forest analogy, but aren't we "cropping" by even growing roses at all in a garden environment? I can see that the adequate N availability would be provided by plants growing, dying and decaying in a meadow or a forest. The trees provide their own N by shedding leaves which decay, which nourish. Ditto grasses in a meadow. But a rose is by definition a crop, isn't it, unless you're talking about a species rose that thrives in a natural environment, like rugosas on a beach or a woodsii at the edge of a forest? A crop being something planted in an artificially provided for growth zone for the planter's own purposes. In that case, I don't see the roses as being able to provide for their own needs, being such heavy feeders. But maybe some teas could or as michaelg says, some shrub roses. By that time, though, their roots are like tree roots and the roses have become a forest?? Have to think about that. Goodness, roses are fun! I think I agree with taoseeker, though, just need to spend time, years no doubt, experimenting with mulches and methods of fertilizing to see what works best. I wish I'd started growing roses when I was 2.

Well, there is current impact, and desired impact. If one household makes environmental choices, that's just one drop in the ocean, right? True. However, to make green choices really work, we need as many "individuals" as possible doing it in order to make an impact. I love what grain feed does for my lawn, but also, its somewhat of a statement to my friends and neighbors that its better than non-organic, and if everyone decides that grain is better, suddenly it will make a big difference. Deerslayer's statement about my lawn's food possibly being someone elseÂs dinner is more powerful to me than the ethanol argument. I believe if biofuels really take off as an alternative, it won't be corn or any current food grain for that matter. ItÂs going to be a product of certain grasses, trees, or waste. Corn biofuel is just getting the innovation going so we can move on to something better.

It looks really brown at the base which I don't see on my st. augustine. However, crabgrass grows in round patches that are often hard to dig up. I think you have something else. Bermuda is great, but if you have a decent shade to your lawn, my suggestion is tall fescue. It reminds me of the kentucky bluegrass in the midwest. I believe Scotts makes a blend that also does OK in the sun. I've planted that in my bermudagrass empty spots like around trees and just looks amazing. If it was crabgrass it should die heavily when winter hits (and turns brown to black and very easy to pull out). Once it all dies out, put a pre-emergent in the grass and once before spring hits. It should help preventing crabgrass by stopping the seeds from germinating. here is a link... www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/turfgrasses/centipedegrass I think you have centipedegrass!

Nothing at all to do with fertilization Which is why I was writing as a corollary and not completely on topic. Greens are NOT always green. Lettuce leaves really are not "N-rich." Most vegetable waste is N-poor. Legumes, which most people believe are N-rich, nave N values much less than 1%. Lettuce has never been considered to be a great source of dietary protein (N). Grasses and fresh leaves fall into this category. Their N content is much less than 1%. Here are some NPK values to chew on... If you want to use something organic as a "green" or as a fertilizer, pick something with a large first number. If you want something "brown" pick something with a first number less than 1. Alfalfa hay 2.45 0.5 2.1 Apple fruit 0.05 0.02 0.1 Apple leaves 1 0.15 0.35 Apple pomace 0.2 0.02 0.15 Apple skin (ash) 0.0 3.08 11.74 Banana skin (ash) 0.0 3.25 41.76 Banana stalk (ash) 0.0 2.34 49.4 Barley (grain) 1.75 0.75 0.5 Bat guano 6 9 0.0 Bean and pod 0.25 0.08 0.3 Beet waste 0.4 0.4 3 Beet waste (root) 0.25 0.1 0.5 Blood meal 15 1.3 0.7 Bone meal 4 21 0.2 Bone (ground and burned) 0.0 34.7 0.0 Brewer's grains (wet) 0.9 0.5 0.05 Brigham tea (ash) 0.0 0.0 5.94 Cantaloupe rind (ash) 0.0 9.77 12.21 Castor bean pomace 5.5 2.25 1.13 Cattail reed & water lilly 2.02 0.81 3.43 Cattail seed 0.98 0.39 1.71 Chicken manure 1.63 1.54 0.85 Coal ash (anthracite) 0.0 0.125 0.125 Coal ash (bituminous) 0.0 0.45 0.45 Cocoa shell dust 1.04 1.49 2.71 Coffee grounds 2.08 0.32 0.28 Coffee grounds (dried) 1.99 0.36 0.67 Corn (grain) 1.65 0.65 0.4 Corn (green forage) 0.3 0.13 0.33 Corncob (ground, charred) 0.0 0.0 2.01 Corncob (ash) 0.0 0.0 50 Cotton seed 3.15 1.25 1.15 Cottonseed meal 7 2.5 1.5 Cottonseed-hull (ash) 0.0 8.7 23.93 Cotton waste 1.32 0.45 0.36 Cow manure (fresh) 0.29 0.17 0.1 Cowpea, green forage 0.45 0.12 0.45 Cowpes, seed 3.1 1 1.2 Crab (common) 1.95 3.6 0.2 Crab (king, dried and ground) 10 0.25 0.06 Crab (king, fresh) 2.3 0.0 0.0 Crabgrass 0.66 0.19 0.71 Cucumber skin (ash) 0.0 11.28 27.2 Dog manure (fresh) 1.97 9.95 0.3 Duck manure (fresh) 1.12 1.44 0.49 Egg 2.25 0.4 0.15 Eggshell (burned) 0.0 0.43 0.29 Eggshell 1.19 0.38 0.14 Feather 15.3 0.0 0.0 Felt hat factory waste 3.8 0.0 0.98 Field bean (seed) 4 1.2 1.3 Field bean (shell) 1.7 0.3 1.3 Fish scrap (red snapper) 7.76 13 0.38 Fish scrap (fresh) 6.5 3.75 0.0 Greasewood (ash) 0.0 0.0 12.61 Gluten feed 4.5 0.0 0.0 Greensand 0.0 1.5 5 Grape leaves 0.45 0.1 0.35 Grapes (fruit) 0.15 0.07 0.3 Grapefruit skin (ash) 0.0 3.58 30.6 Hair 14 0.0 0.0 Hare and rabbit waste 7 2.4 0.6 Hoof meal and horn dust 12.5 1.75 0.0 Horse manure (fresh) 0.44 0.17 0.35 Incinerator ash 0.24 5.15 2.33 Jellyfish (dried) 4.6 0.0 0.0 Leather (acidulated) 7.5 0.0 0.0 Leather (ground) 11 0.0 0.0 Leather (ash) 0.0 2.16 0.35 Lemon cull 0.15 0.06 0.26 Lemon skin 0.0 6.3 31 Lobster (refuse) 4.5 3.5 0.0 Lobster (shell) 4.6 3.52 0.0 Milk 0.5 0.3 0.18 Mud (fresh water) 1.37 0.26 0.22 Mud (harbour) 0.99 0.77 0.05 Mussel 0.9 0.12 0.13 Mussel mud (dried) 0.72 0.35 0.0 Molasses residue (brewing) 0.7 0.0 5.32 Moss 0.6 0.1 0.55 Oak leaf 0.8 0.35 0.15 Oats grain 2 0.8 0.6 Olive pomace 1.15 0.78 1.26 Olive refuse 1.22 0.18 0.32 Orange cull 0.2 0.13 0.21 Orange skin (ash) 0.0 2.9 27 Oyster shell 0.36 10.38 0.09 Paint processing waste 0.02 39.5 0.0 Pea pod (ash) 0.0 1.79 9 Peach leaf 0.9 0.15 0.6 Peanut (seed & kernel) 3.6 0.7 4.5 Peanut shell 0.8 0.15 0.5 Peanut shell (ash) 0.0 1.23 6.45 Pigeon manure (fresh) 4.19 2.24 1.41 Pig manue (fresh) 0.6 0.41 0.13 Pigweed (rough) 0.6 0.16 0.0 Pine needle 0.46 0.12 0.03 Potato (tuber) 0.35 0.15 0.5 Potato (leaf and stalk) 0.6 0.15 0.45 Potato skin (ash) 0.0 5.18 27.5 Poudrette 1.46 3.68 0.48 Powderworks waste 2.5 0.0 17 Prune refuse 0.18 0.7 0.31 Pumpkin (fresh) 0.16 0.07 0.26 Pumpkin seed 0.87 0.5 0.45 Rabbit brush (ash) 0.0 0.0 13.04 Ragweed 0.76 0.26 0.0 Redtop hay 1.2 0.35 1 Rhubarb stem 0.1 0.04 0.35 Rockweed 1.9 0.25 3.68 Rose (flower) 0.3 0.1 0.4 Salt-marsh hay 1.1 0.25 0.75 Salt mud 0.4 0.0 0.0 Sardine scrap 7.97 7.11 0.0 Seawood 1.68 0.75 4.93 Sheep manure (fresh) 0.55 0.31 0.15 Shoddy and felt 8 0.0 0.0 Shrimp head (dried) 7.82 4.2 0.0 Shrimp waste 2.87 9.95 0.0 Silt waste 9.5 0.0 0.0 Silk mill waste 8.37 1.14 0.12 Silk worm cocoon 9.42 1.82 1.08 Sludge 2 1.9 0.3 Sludge (activated) 5 3.25 0.6 Sludge from sewer beds 0.74 0.33 0.24 Soot from chimney fllue 5.25 1.05 0.35 Starfish 1.8 0.2 0.25 Sunflower seed 2.25 1.25 0.79 Sugar (raw, residue) 1.14 8.33 0.0 Sweet potato skins (ash) 0.0 3.29 13.89 Sweet potato 0.25 0.1 0.5 Tanbark (ash) 0.0 0.34 3.8 Tanbark ash (spent) 0.0 1.75 2 Tankage 6 5 0.0 Tea grounds 4.15 0.62 0.4 Tea leaves (ash) 0.0 1.6 0.44 Timothy hay 1.25 0.55 1 Tobacco leaves 4 0.5 6 Tobacco stalk 3.7 0.65 4.5 Tobacco stem 2.5 0.9 7 Tomato fruit 0.2 0.07 0.35 Tomato leaves 0.35 0.1 0.4 Tomato stalk 0.35 0.1 0.5 Wheat, bran 2.65 2.9 1.6 Wheat grain 2 0.85 0.5 Wheat straw 0.5 0.15 0.6 White clover (green) 0.5 0.2 0.3 White sage (ash) 0.0 0.0 13.77 Wood ash (leached) 0.0 1.25 2 Wood ash (unleached) 0.0 1.5 7 Wool waste 5.5 3 2