Steven, What is the location of this lawn, City and State please, What kind of maple trees do you have, Sugar maples, Silver, Norway ? What kind of grass did you try to plant there? What kind of grass do you have in sunny areas?
Bill Hill

Here is a link that might be useful: Growing Grass in the Shade

I see you live in Canada. That's good. It's still cool there. Tell me more about your seeding. When did you plant your shade tolerant seeds and do you know what kind of grass seeds were in that mixture or blend. Did you ensure good seed to soil contact. Cover the seeds with anything ? I think it may be possible to grow a nice lawn there.
Bill Hill

Thanks for the reply.

I live in Newfoundland Canada. The maples in question are red maples.

I tried plating several different blends of grass seed. The first blend contained a high % of creeping red fescue (50% or so), the remainder being kentucky bluegrass, and perrenial rye grass.

The first time I seeded I just put the seed down and watered in. When that didn't grow, I mixed seed and top soil in a wheel barrow, then applied, and watered in. The last attempt I applied seed to the ground and covered with topsoil, then watered in.

I started seeding in late July and all throughout August. We don't have a very hot summer in Newfoundland, 20 degC or so normally.

Right now, its about 5 degC outside and there is still patches of snow here and there. The buds haven't blossomed on the trees yet.

With the summers you get, you shouldn't have to worry much about grass dying in the heat of the summer. I used to work with a guy from Newfoundland and IIRC, you get lots of rain, also.

When you seeded, how often did you water? From your first post, it sounds like you may have been watering once a day. Usually, you want to water deeply but infrequently, but when you seed, the opposite is true. You want to water several times a day so that the seeds stay damp and germinate.

Fine fescues are probably your best bet for shade. Fine fescues would include Hard, Chewing, Creeping Red. If you can't get specific seeds like that in Newfoundland, you may need to use the shade mix you tried before. If spreading the seed and watering 3x a day for a few weeks doesn't work, you might try dormant seeding. To dormant seed, you wait until it is too cold for the seed to germinate and spread it. The winter snows and the freeze/thaw cycles will carry the seed into the soil and when the soil warms up int he spring, the seed will germinate. You may lose some to rotting or to partial germination followed by a freeze, but the advantage is that you don't need to water at all because there should be plenty of moisture available from the winter snow melt and spring rains (this works even here in the desert).

This is Kentucky Bluegrass under a 50 YO silver maple.
It can be done.

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We live in central Ohio. We have a large silver maple and and oak tree shading our backyard. Once the leaves come in we only have 1 tiny corner of the yard that is not in full shade. I find I have the most success seeding early - before the leaves come. ("Spring" here is "that solid week of rain before which you were smart to put down grass seed or, afterwards, don't bother!") I use just enough of last fall's shredded leaves as mulch to hide the grass seed from birds and to keep the ground moist. I don't apply any fertilizer until after I cut the new grass for the first time. I do have to reseed every spring. But, what I plant does grow and keeps the mud down when it rains.

Thanks for all the great replies.

In response to bpgreen, I watered for a couple hours each day. I would turn off the hose when I felt the ground was getting to sogged with water.There are speciality stores here that would carry specific grass seeds. I'll try planting a mixture of what you suggested.

In response to demetrius3d, maybe I should start seeding right now. Last year I tried seeding in the middle of summer when the maples were in full bloom (shady). Right now the buds have not even broken yet and there is still sparse patches of snow underneath bushes and the like, the ground is bare and very damp.

What if I got a truck load of topsoil/peat put an inch or two over the lawn added the seed, then covered with another inch or two, then watered in. The seed should have the advantage of being seperated from the fine maple roots for a while until the trees start coming back to life and sending out feeders, hopefully by then the grass will have germinated.

I have a feeling that if I can get the grass established before the maple feeders can remove all mooisture from the grass seed/seedlings I can keep the lawn healthy with frequent watering and fertlizer. I'll still make a buffer zone close to the trees with mulch though, but I want to a lawn too, not all mulch.

garycinchicago, thats a great picture, thanks for the support, it can be done! Im guessing they layed established sod there and the grass root system was able to cope.

"I watered for a couple hours each day. I would turn off the hose when I felt the ground was getting to sogged with water."

Rather than water a lot every day, it's much better to water a little several times a day until the grass germinates. You're trying to keep just the top little bit of soil moist. You may have gotten things too wet and then they'd dry out a little. Since there aren't any roots yet, it doesn't really help to have water deep in the soil.

> "garycinchicago, thats a great picture, thanks for the support, it can be done! Im guessing they layed established sod there and the grass root system was able to cope.

No, I seeded the area.

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You have to provide the grass roots with soil depth enough for the roots and use a cultivar that is shade tolerant - then provide enough moisture for BOTH the tree roots and the grass, while going easy with fertilizer in shade.

The fact that maples are so shallow-rooted means that even a well-watered area can be bone-dry in a few hours. Trying to keep the soil moist leads eventually to compacting.

I think I need to till the soil and add several inches of new topsoil and peat. Then add fescue, and water several times a day (not too much at once) to moisten the top few inches of soil. I need to do all this before the maples come out in bloom and start sending out feeders and shading the area.

Opinions?

I wouldn't till. If you till, you're likely to damage the maple roots. You'll also likely see it get pretty uneven as it settles over the next few years.

You're only watering frequently for a few weeks until the seeds germinate. Fescue germinates fairly quickly (not as fast as rye, but not as slow as KBG).

You really don't need to get the top several inches moist when you water because there aren't any roots. You only need to get about the top 1/2 inch wet. If you've got sprinklers, you can run them for 5-10 minutes several times a day. All you want to do is get the seeds moist and enough soil moist that the seeds don't immediately dry out. If you don't have sprinklers, since it's a small area, you could stand with the hose and spray for a few minutes several times a day.

I am really inspired by your photos garycinchicago!
These are the current weather conditions where I live...

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There is still sparse amounts of snow underneath bushes and in shady areas. My lawn (where it should be) is snow free now. The buds are not out on the maples yet. Is it too early to prepare the soil and start seeding? I think I need to get a head start on those maples.

Steve

I figured that tilling would help with the soil compation problems that the maples are causing. If I added compost/topsoil/peat over the compacted soil would this fix itself over time?

I think one of the biggest issues last year was that the seeds could not germinate into the compacted soil caused by the maples. How much compost/topsoil/peat should I add?

Better to put mulch under the tree. Not only is it better for the tree, you won't get bluegrass to survive under a red maple. They suck the life out of anything in the root zone. Same with silver maples.

Any grass you could start there would be a short term temporary thing for a season or two.

Here's some pictures of what I've been talking about. In case you're wondering, yes I'm making maple syrup!

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any more thoughts after seeing my pictures?

Looks like a little tree triming is in order, especially the second tree coming out of the corner in back - it has that large trunk going directly into the yard.

Myself, I'd get some decorative colored mulch - black would look nice with the house's siding, and spread mulch from under the deck, through the tree trunks and extend out into the yard. To edge the mulch area, some nice white colored impatiens will mound and spread and create the border - while flourish in the shade. (the white flowers in the black mulch with the blue siding would be attractive looking)

I'd come out 8 to 14 (8 in the sunnier spots - 14 in the shadier) feet from the tree trunks. Use a garden hose for form and design the border line.

> "What if I got a truck load of topsoil/peat put an inch or two over the lawn added the seed, then covered with another inch or two"

Spread the soil out into the yard area, starting at the mulch line going outwards.

Rake it out to grade and level *BUT* cover your seeds with no more than 1/4" of an inch of soil. Do NOT bury the seeds too deep, only lightly cover them.

Use a fine fescue grass seed as do perform best in shady conditions. Keep them constantly moist / damp to germinate - never puddle the seed bed.

Your temps are only a little colder than Chicago. That big pond to your right helps warm things. This is the perfect time to start your project and by mid May, you should be seeing results.

I don't know if Canucks can get it but a starter fertilizer with Siduron (AKA Tupersan) would prevent crab grass from germinating in the seed bed and allow the grass seed to germinate. Look into that - you have different herbicide regulations than us in the states.

Steven994-

Those are magnificent trees. You need to expand a large band of mulch to cover all the trees. The grass is being shaded out in that location as well as root competition. If you want the trees to live a long healthy life and not fall down on your deck, look after them properly... mulch 2-3" in root zone, don't pile it against trunk, do not plant anything in the root zone including grass.

Grass will not look good there no matter what you do.

Great advice thanks! I will post the results.

One last question, if I start this now and the temperatures dip in a week or two, could feezing kill the grass seed that is germinating?

Any more thoughts? Yes indeed. Place mulch rings around those beautiful maples. In fact that whole area between the trees and the deck should be mulch. Mulch rings should be 5 ft radius from the center of the tree. Could be more or less for esthetics. Be creative. Make that whole area a flower bed. Make it curvy in front. Fallen leaves make a perfect mulch and you should have tons of them. Your trees have a nice root flair. Do not bury the root flair but keep the mulch pulled back a couple inches from the trunk. A lot of stuff will grow in those mulched areas. Start with annuals and a few perennial flowers changing things as you learn more about flowers and gardens. Maple leaves decomposed very well over winter especially if chopped up by a lawn mower. The remaining mulch is a fine dark brown almost black leaf mulch. I can think of no better mulch for those trees and plants growing there. And of course it free, every fall. Now for the grass issue. Once you outline your mulch beds, scratch up the soil where you want the grass with a rake and scatter a sun and shade mixture of grass seed. Then roll it lightly, or absent a roller, just walk on it pressing the seeds into the soil. Mulching the seedbed is a good idea but optional. Common mistake is burying the seed too deep. If you could spread 1/8 inch thickness of compost, peat, or garden soil, that would be good. Clean wheat straw is also an effective as a mulch for grass seeding. Most importantly, the seed bed must be kept moist until all the seeds have germinated and established roots. That means twice a day, everyday unless it rains. Fertilizer is recommended. Good luck with your northern lawn and gardens. Continue reading and posting your questions. I know you can have a beautiful lawn and flower beds there. No, a heavy frost will not kill the grass seedlings.
Bill Hill

I've added about 30 bags of decomposing/mulched leaves around my trees, from the deck out 10-15 feet in a wavy pattern. I watered the leaves down so hopefully I don't have to much blowing around. Most of the leaves are quite black from being bagged up since last year. The rock path is temporary until I figure out what to use there permanantly, any ideas? How about edging ideas?

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I plan to plant a bunch of hostas and some iris in the mulched area. What other shade loving plants can I put here? I want to fill it in with a lot of flowers/scrubs.

WOW Steven, That looks great. I personally donÂt care for edging but prefer just to dig a sharp line with shovel. That being said, edging material is very popular, so I think IÂm in the minority there. Hostas will not reach their full potential under maples but they will survive. Summer annuals and perennials will do well on the south side of the trees. I think hardy mums would work there. Lilies of the valley do well in shade. There are many shade tolerant and shade loving plants. A search would reveal many. My mind is blank on the subject right now. You could scatter a small amount of soil on the leaves to hold them in place until the get stuck there really well. Please post some pictures this summer with the stuff you plant there. Anxious to see that.
Bill Hill

Looking great!

> "What other shade loving plants can I put here?"

Impatiens, they are shade lovers - see link.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:83223}}

thanks!

Are impatients perennial? I'd like to plant them and have them multiply over time rather than planting new ones every year.

No unfortunately, impatiens are annual.

Caladium is perennial with beautiful colored leafs. See link

Here is a link that might be useful: Caladium pictures

I clicked too fast and forgot the most important aspect!

> "Caladium is perennial with beautiful colored leafs"

*AND* is very shade tolerate!

Looking at your pictures, I think mulch is the best way to go there. The flower beds in my yard were largely defined by drawing nice curves to segregate the parts of the yard where grass is hopeless. I have a big S curve that defines a bed around an oak tree and my shed, and another at the corner of the yard under a big silver maple. These are the impossible areas. But, 80% of my yard is officially full shade. So, the shade plant recommendations are much appreciated!